Zansatsu

That's nice. But that has nothing to do with your claim or what we were discussing. You don't have to grind in any of the IE games, yet that hasn't stopped your side from citing IE-game-grinding at every turn on this thread. It shows that grinding is optional, not a essential part of the game. I never grinded in any IE game ever, its not necessary. My mouth is agape!! A large portion of all the complaining has been about GRINDING and how you had to do it to beat the game! Now we learn it was never an issue just something people did because they feel like it?!!!! Isn't that what I and others have been saying all along and yet we were told we were crazy people?!

Perhaps this is just my interpretation of objectives but that implies more than just quests to me. Again that could just be how I view it. As for the rest of it I'm over it but still prefer a more robust Xp system. I would say the people have seen the backer beta and changed their minds. Or maybe they're just sick of voting in every new poll that asks the same question over and over when the issue was supposedly settled two years ago.

I agree. Let's also hope that PoE will attract attention from the modding community. It's essential for a game like this to allow the user base to generate mods and fixes. I don't think I would have enjoyed replaying BG2 as much without the BG2 Fixpack. The BG2 Mods are awesome, and were needed so badly regarding combat. But people not only have to take off their nostalgia goggles like Sensuki or how this guy is called wears them; they also have to accept: You don´t sell games because they have an awesome AI. You sell them despite of having a terrible AI. I mean, since 1996 AI in games made literally zero progress. NPC-enemies are still as stupid as they were in the early ninetees. Sometimes it seems different cause they are more heavily scripted. But that´s it. Sad reality is, a clever AI is nothing that promotes a game in the current market situation. There has been a lot of progress in terms of AI since 1996. You just have to look at real-time strategy games, not RPGs. Starcraft II has probably the best AI I've ever seen. And that is for a game that is literally all about the multiplayer or the campaign. I still wonder why they even bothered to throw that much time and resources into developing a great player vs. cpu AI if 95% of the players never actually have to deal with it. Whether you like Blizzard's games or not the one thing they never do is half ass it.

Also, Rosebud is the sled. Soylent Green is people....

Isn't that exactly how we remember them from IE games? At least back then you could heal the poor sods. Ya but it's disappointing 15 years or so later nobody thought maybe they could be spiced up some. This is purely hypothetical and I'm not saying OE needs to even consider this but suppose there was no barbarian class at all. Instead it's abilities were mixed in and made to fit with the fighter and instead of a "fighter" we had a warrior. Now you could choose to upgrade him into an incredible tank or a melee power house. Much more interesting imo.

I like this idea. I've had the same thought about it. Even if no XP is granted at the end filling up the Cyclopedia to unlock bonuses is a nice thought. At the moment though it only gives you some information and combat advice. The Cyclopedia will all be online in no time so lore seems pointless atm. You can look up the best way to kill everything.

I feel like you should be making video games Sensuki, not just palling around with us schmucks on the forum. Good work on all you do.

I don't know what you said but it comes off condescending, let's try to stay on topic please.

again, if such a belief makes you feel better 'bout yourself, who is we to deny your little fantasy. Gromnir is just a simple board poster and clear not as clever as you, but, "better a witty fool than a foolish wit." so, which category do you thinks you belong to, the fool or wit? now, on-topic... is still moot. HA! Good Fun! I don't think your stupid Gromnir (as I said it's diabolical). Quite the contrary. I do think you have a nasty streak which you are dumping all over this forum. oh, more talk 'bout Gromnir instead o' topics? what did we note about that earlier? *snort* in spite o' your confusion you seem quite aware o' material for which you should take offense, no? and please review. what we had no patience for is when posters purposeful misrepresent. claim to not understand Gromnir? fine, but you have no such excuse for josh comments, cain comments or indira comments. pretend as if what indira were suggesting were same as obsidian claims o' need/goals for an experience mechanic were conversely mendacious or cretinous (denotative, not connotative.) so, much as with this topic itself, we have a functional choice o' two diametric opposed options. we seem harsh to you? gosh. am tending to agree that we is harsh, but only with the willful obtuse or mendacious. indira statements and josh position were not confusing, even if Gromnirs posts elude you. no excuses. HA! Good Fun! I've never misunderstood Josh or Cain, I misunderstand you. I don't agree with their stated goal or need for perfect balance. Indira stated a combat Xp system could be implemented in time. You said not a balanced one and he agreed but that wasn't an issue for him and it isn't one for me. I already admitted to that. I've never read you anywhere saying Combat Xp could be balanced until a page ago at least I don't think so because again you intentionally play the fool (which you clearly are not) and yes your post can be hard to read and understand perfectly. I thought balance was your whole problem with it. Maybe you said it can be balance before somewhere but I've only been on these forum for 2 weeks. I skim a lot of the post because some are very long or a chore to read. I don't think I'm alone in that, and this is just a forum, I'm not trying to master every topic, just enjoy a game. You jump off topic, disguising your insults and condescension with a calculated court jester bit, then at the very end after you spent all that time patronizing someone tell them to stay on topic. Sheesh. I've never been warned by a moderator so I assume they don't take issue with me. I don't know that you really read what I say either. I've said multiple times I'm not married to Combat Xp and am only here to discuss why I prefer it over quest only. I've agreed that the problem I've noticed with the progression of the Quest only Xp at the moment is pacing and that the wilderness will, after I've completed this game once, serve little function for me, which is sad because it's a beautiful game. Really why trudge out everywhere again using up resources once I know where the important stuff is? One thing I enjoyed about the IE games was the fact that if I didn't stay on point all the time I still could progress if I decided to just do some Dungeon romping. To me having Quest only XP is actually going to shrink how much I do everytime I replay the game, if I do replay it. Doesn't mean I won't like the game.

again, if such a belief makes you feel better 'bout yourself, who is we to deny your little fantasy. Gromnir is just a simple board poster and clear not as clever as you, but, "better a witty fool than a foolish wit." so, which category do you thinks you belong to, the fool or wit? now, on-topic... is still moot. HA! Good Fun! I don't think your stupid Gromnir (as I said it's diabolical). Quite the contrary. I do think you have a nasty streak which you are dumping all over this forum.

Well saying you come in oblique, which is like slanting, to me means your saying, yes you muddy your conversation with a shtick making it difficult at times to fully understand you. Enough is there so when you call somebody on there mistake of your goblin speak well there isn't much to say. Again I could be misinterpreting that so feel free to brow beat me some more.

hey, if that belief helps you sleep at night, run with it.... damn mixed metaphors HA! Good Fun! I'm glad to see you come in loud and clear when you want to insult people.

Ok I'm wrong. I'll be honest though I really dont catch everything your saying so I'm not always sure of your exact thoughts. It's diabolical really. You speak so convoluted that it is easy to miss exactly what your saying. It's like trying to understand a mumbler and misquoting him.

Look Gromnir you can lecture me all you want about combat xp can't be perfectly balanced. I get that. I also know this isn't going to get implemented. However a system i would prefer could be implemented in time for launch. In the context of your argument I don't wish to conform in terms of coming up with a perfectly balanced alternative when I'm not interested in it.

I don't care about what you feel that it's fun for you. Considering time/resources, they should stick to what they have and use their remaining time/resources to fix/balance/polish the game and not catering some loud people. Unless that loud people want to pay from their pocket those optional systems. Then that's ok a long as the resource known as time allows it. The only way they will have the time to allow it is if the pro-combatxpers come up with around 200k or so and make another donation. They are asking them to overhaul the one system that has more to do with game balance and power curves than anything else. It would easily take a month or two possibly more to do just that, forget about all the bugs, polishing, and everything else you have to put on hold. It is a ridiculous request that is not as popular as people think and it is not going to happen. As a D&D CRPG modder, I can tell you, in all sincerity, that this is not true. Even a single experienced person could do it, and well in time, before release. If they wanted to have it in, that is. I have already asked one OE dev about it, and provided a solution/set up for how it could be done, even for free. He declined. Also, they already have some creature/monster/enemy ranking system in, since you have this "most powerful foe defeated" feature in. It's a design choice more than anything else. *Ahem* Not everyone agrees with your assertion that it is to late Gromnir though I admit it will not be changed by choice. naughty. you should not misrepresent indira. our post: a bit misleading no doubt. whether you could slap together a kill xp system ignores comments such as josh made in regard to this issue: "Not only is it extraordinarily hard to balance for designers and QA staff, but it inevitably leads to nasty metagaming that, in my opinion, runs counter to some of the guiding principles of many RPGs." please note josh did not say that implementing a kill system for xp were technical difficult. he did observe that such a system were extraordinarily hard to balance for designers and QA. implement a system is only the start o' the effort that would be needed to Fix your "improvement." would you give xp for sneaking past monsters instead o' fighting. stun thinks sneaking past monsters is unworthy? does you? how much for lockpicking? if you give for kills, then why not lockpicks... and how much for lockpicks? again, am believing there is a fundamental misconception 'bout the problem. end post. indira responded thus: Gromnir: Agreed. It's basically what I'm saying: Josh & Co would be more than capable of inserting it (like I just wrote, it's already in, at least rudimentarily). However we do not agree about perfect balance. I say like Sensuki: "balance==banalce", in this case it's true for an xp system in a CRPG. Obviously, it needs quite some tweaking and decent min-max variations over the course of the game, but in essence: I want the game to be slightly imbalanced. This makes each playthrough so much more fun. As for my system (I said that in another thread): I'd keep it pretty close to the BG2 system, so yes, lockpicking and disarming traps, would be in, for instance end repost. therefore, even indira agrees with our statement that, "it is too late to create a new mechanic which achieves goals... especially as feedback from QA on this game reinforces obsidian belief that the current xp system is working as anticipated." the difference is that indira does not value the same goals as obsidian. nevertheless, indira did actually agree with our assertion, so, you is incorrect. no new mechanic that achieves balance is possible. is moot. HA! Good Fun! No he stated they could do it, and that he did not believe perfect balance was necessary. As in he doesn't agree those stated goals of perfect balance are necessary. Nor do many of us. actually, no. he/she agreed that a new mechanic that included the promised balancing could not be added in the requisite time with the available manpower/money resources. he/she doesn't believe such balancing is necessary, but he/she agreed that that josh's statements about the balancing being prohibitive for qa and designers was accurate. this is simple reason folks. an engineer says he can't build a replacement bridge by December that will satisfy certain design requirements such as weight limits, longevity, etc. another engineer shows up and claims that a bridge can be built by December, but her specs is complete different. not all bridges is the same just as not all xp mechanics is the same. a primary goal mentioned in the kickstarter promise were balance. indira says balance ain't necessary? well, that's nice, but it ain't actual helpful or responsive... she offers a very nice rope bridge, but that ain't what obsidian promised or would be willing to replace their current design with. so no, as we noted, a balanced xp mechanic cannot be constructed in the time remaining, and indira agreed... she simply doesn't see balance as a necessary quality. issue is moot. HA! Good Fun! But you believe combat xp can never be perfectly balanced and we agree, it never can be and we don't care it's miniscule in the differences. So very strictly perfectly balance combat xp cannot be implemented, but you would argue it never could no matter the time frame, so why agree to your conditions when we don't want them. However the system that we are in favor of could be implemented in the allotted time.

I don't care about what you feel that it's fun for you. Considering time/resources, they should stick to what they have and use their remaining time/resources to fix/balance/polish the game and not catering some loud people. Unless that loud people want to pay from their pocket those optional systems. Then that's ok a long as the resource known as time allows it. The only way they will have the time to allow it is if the pro-combatxpers come up with around 200k or so and make another donation. They are asking them to overhaul the one system that has more to do with game balance and power curves than anything else. It would easily take a month or two possibly more to do just that, forget about all the bugs, polishing, and everything else you have to put on hold. It is a ridiculous request that is not as popular as people think and it is not going to happen. As a D&D CRPG modder, I can tell you, in all sincerity, that this is not true. Even a single experienced person could do it, and well in time, before release. If they wanted to have it in, that is. I have already asked one OE dev about it, and provided a solution/set up for how it could be done, even for free. He declined. Also, they already have some creature/monster/enemy ranking system in, since you have this "most powerful foe defeated" feature in. It's a design choice more than anything else. *Ahem* Not everyone agrees with your assertion that it is to late Gromnir though I admit it will not be changed by choice. naughty. you should not misrepresent indira. our post: a bit misleading no doubt. whether you could slap together a kill xp system ignores comments such as josh made in regard to this issue: "Not only is it extraordinarily hard to balance for designers and QA staff, but it inevitably leads to nasty metagaming that, in my opinion, runs counter to some of the guiding principles of many RPGs." please note josh did not say that implementing a kill system for xp were technical difficult. he did observe that such a system were extraordinarily hard to balance for designers and QA. implement a system is only the start o' the effort that would be needed to Fix your "improvement." would you give xp for sneaking past monsters instead o' fighting. stun thinks sneaking past monsters is unworthy? does you? how much for lockpicking? if you give for kills, then why not lockpicks... and how much for lockpicks? again, am believing there is a fundamental misconception 'bout the problem. end post. indira responded thus: Gromnir: Agreed. It's basically what I'm saying: Josh & Co would be more than capable of inserting it (like I just wrote, it's already in, at least rudimentarily). However we do not agree about perfect balance. I say like Sensuki: "balance==banalce", in this case it's true for an xp system in a CRPG. Obviously, it needs quite some tweaking and decent min-max variations over the course of the game, but in essence: I want the game to be slightly imbalanced. This makes each playthrough so much more fun. As for my system (I said that in another thread): I'd keep it pretty close to the BG2 system, so yes, lockpicking and disarming traps, would be in, for instance end repost. therefore, even indira agrees with our statement that, "it is too late to create a new mechanic which achieves goals... especially as feedback from QA on this game reinforces obsidian belief that the current xp system is working as anticipated." the difference is that indira does not value the same goals as obsidian. nevertheless, indira did actually agree with our assertion, so, you is incorrect. no new mechanic that achieves balance is possible. is moot. HA! Good Fun! No he stated they could do it, and that he did not believe perfect balance was necessary. As in he doesn't agree those stated goals of perfect balance are necessary. Nor do many of us.

I don't care about what you feel that it's fun for you. Considering time/resources, they should stick to what they have and use their remaining time/resources to fix/balance/polish the game and not catering some loud people. Unless that loud people want to pay from their pocket those optional systems. Then that's ok a long as the resource known as time allows it. The only way they will have the time to allow it is if the pro-combatxpers come up with around 200k or so and make another donation. They are asking them to overhaul the one system that has more to do with game balance and power curves than anything else. It would easily take a month or two possibly more to do just that, forget about all the bugs, polishing, and everything else you have to put on hold. It is a ridiculous request that is not as popular as people think and it is not going to happen. As a D&D CRPG modder, I can tell you, in all sincerity, that this is not true. Even a single experienced person could do it, and well in time, before release. If they wanted to have it in, that is. I have already asked one OE dev about it, and provided a solution/set up for how it could be done, even for free. He declined. Also, they already have some creature/monster/enemy ranking system in, since you have this "most powerful foe defeated" feature in. It's a design choice more than anything else. *Ahem* Not everyone agrees with your assertion that it is to late Gromnir though I admit it will not be changed by choice.

I have no comment on the health to stamina ratio because I feel it will take some time before I can accurately gauge if it's flawed. Fighters from what little I've seen seem very one dimensional and boring which is a shame because they are normally my favorite class type.

Well yeah people will metagame around items, josh stated that their are also special unique skills that you get from questing so thats another thing people will use for meta character builds. Most people replay RPG's to try out different class combinations. I agree but in this instance you can already try all the class combinations you want the first time through. Oh well it is still going to be a great play through at least once.

Just a point I'd like to make about metagaming and the rewards in this game. Loot is hand placed so it never changes and never moves so if you're not into crafting saying loot is an incentive for exploration and combat may hold true to some but I'm confident others will just wait till great people like Sensuki and others find everything and share it with us as they are want to do, then just go to the specific area's and get the specific things they want. The beastiary is a really cool Idea but again all of it will be up on Wiki in about a week or two and then why would I need to fill it out. That being said I am still really excited for this game and want to play it. Just think it could do better but that's my opinion.

Ya I watched them all the other day. Good stuff!

I agree I prefer to fight to the death and I guess reload from a saved game and try again, but I also see no harm in allowing for tactical retreats.

Maybe it's something they will look at now that you've brought it up!

It's just a forum personality...you guys gotta bring more to the table than that in your quest to kill quest only xp (and then get xp from that kill) No I actually hadn't paid much attention to it. I really thought he talked that way. I did not know he was pretending to be an orc.

This discussion has been done multiple times in past two years in these forums, and I just don't feel to repeat my opinion about it time and time again. Same thing as with romance topics, I told my opinion about it two years ago, but now I just can't be bothered to write it again when new topic pops up, even though developers decided to go against my side of that debate. And it don't help my apathy to write my opinion in this topics when there seems to be no room for constructive discussion as both sides have their opinions wrote in stone and there is even smallest hint that people would budge from their stance to one way or another. I understand your point. However I have seen a lot of compromises and suggestions show up on these forums by people who are for and against combat xp. I like combat xp (under the context of it included with quest/exploration/achievements/etc.) and will always like it better. Some of the suggestions include changing how the quest only xp is doled out so it feels more like you are progressing in stages instead of one big chunk. Adding exploration and Rare difficult mob xp and even achievement xp on top of the current quest only. Making your character progression not simply combat focused. Since it seems every talent and skill you receive through lvling is completely combat focused, to some that seems strange in a game about choosing your own path but being given no real tools to play with. Randomize loot instead of hand placing it so that the replay value of the game is increased especially if each loot table has different items that are valuable to all different characters. Unfortunately a lot of these suggestions have been met with scathing insults (from both sides) causing people to become defensive and then become further intrenched. I will admit myself included among that, it gets tiresome being talked to like a child by people and we begin to take it personal @gromnir it was pretty petty to say what I did so i'm sorry (your posts still require a few read throughs though). So to those of you who tried coming here with real compromises and solutions thank you, even if when you were beaten down you got defensive about it.