Too much text ......

[Teioh_White]

Did...I see PS:T compared to a JP VN? I guess if one looks at what the medium could be, and not how it's actually implemented, I could see it. But off the top of my head, I'm not thinking of a great many that even get close to trying to do something like that. The genre is pretty overwhelmingly geared in a more...physical direction? Even the ones that try to more than that still have to start with that premise as it's core, as that's just how things are done in the land of Japan.

 

But as for the Text in Pillars, I've never had a problem with it at all. It's not like Hong Kong was, with the most pointless NPC's would yammer on about things both boring and unconnected to anything.

 

I do agree though that the demo that likes PS:T isn't exactly the same demo that would like something like IcewindDale.

[Elerond]

Might be really hard for dyslexics though, especially with that font.

 

I can't speak for all dyslexics, but for me writing in the game or fonts they used didn't cause any problems. Although I have got used to read long and difficult texts in language that is much less dyslexics friendly than English. So maybe I am not best example of average dyslexic. 

[Gromnir]

postscript--

 

writers o' novels might be wrong for illustrative purposes.

 

we woulda' likely contrasted faulkner and hemingway, particularly as they hated each other.  

 

faulkner speaking o' hemingway: "he has never been known to use a word that might send a reader to the dictionary."

 

hemingway response: "poor faulkner. does he really think big emotions come from big words?"

 

while we admire hemingway and faulkner equal and for complete different reasons, is noteworthy that faulkner movie treatments is actual far more similar to hemingway style than either would likely admit.  is few authors who is as highly descriptive as were faulkner, but when doing movie scripts, he took a more minimalist approach. a crpg is not visual media to the degree such as is a movie, but a crpg also has gameplay, and most crpgs is even more dialogue driven than is movies.

 

that being said, none is more worthy than joyce when illustrating the beauty o' language

 

"a few light taps upon the pane made him turn to the window. It had begun to snow again. he watched sleepily the flakes, silver and dark, falling obliquely against the lamplight. the time had come for him to set out on his journey westward. yes, the newspapers were right: snow was general all over Ireland. it was falling on every part of the dark central plain, on the treeless hills, on the Bog of Allen and, farther westward, softly falling into the dark mutinous Shannon waves. it was falling, too, upon every part of the lonely churchyard on the hill where Michael Furey lay buried. it lay thickly drifted on the crooked crosses and headstones, on the spears of the little gate, on the barren thorns. his soul swooned slowly as he heard the snow falling faintly through the universe and faintly falling, like the descent of their last end, upon all the living and the dead."  -last paragraph from the dead

 

is not a problem o' exposition, but is rare that a character speaking thus would be anything other than unnatural. as evocative as were joyce at his best, am doubting a game would benefit from more than a little o' such prose. honestly, how would such stuff fit in the ordinary dialogue-heavy text o' a game? there is a few instances o' narration in poe, but the text o' poe is most often dialogue.

 

...

 

perhaps you should be looking more to shakespeare and miller than joyce and hemingway for inspiration.   nobody could monologue likes shakespeare, but is actual typical only a handful o' lengthy shakespeare monologues in a five act play.  and lord knows that it would be near impossible to have multiple options available to the would-be monologuer.

 

HA! Good Fun! 

 

 

[illathid]

Did...I see PS:T compared to a JP VN? I guess if one looks at what the medium could be, and not how it's actually implemented, I could see it. But off the top of my head, I'm not thinking of a great many that even get close to trying to do something like that. The genre is pretty overwhelmingly geared in a more...physical direction? Even the ones that try to more than that still have to start with that premise as it's core, as that's just how things are done in the land of Japan.

 

But as for the Text in Pillars, I've never had a problem with it at all. It's not like Hong Kong was, with the most pointless NPC's would yammer on about things both boring and unconnected to anything.

 

I do agree though that the demo that likes PS:T isn't exactly the same demo that would like something like IcewindDale.

 

It's funny, I would actually pay big bucks for a PS:T visual novel. Hmmm... Maybe something to look into.

[Eric Fenstermaker]

quibble:

 

we wouldn't put joyce at the opposite end o' the spectrum from hemingway.  early joyce is most frequent categorized as minimalist realism, yes?

 

That's what I meant by his "more adventurous" works. Ulysses or Finnegan's Wake, I was thinking. Then again I'm talking out of my ass here because I've only read small excerpts from either of them. I know him more for his accessible stuff. Your choice of Faulkner was much better. 

 

And to be clear, I don't mean to say that we aspire to write like Hemingway or Joyce or any author of literature. A) There's no competing with that, especially in a form that places hefty, unnatural constraints on how you structure your text, B) I don't think many people would want to read an attempt at it, and C) even your work was phenomenal, it wouldn't put you in their company anyway - fancy prose doesn't push games as a medium, and pushing their medium is what made those authors special. If anything, the target for us, prose-wise, is to write something that is enjoyable to read, that hopefully evokes some of the feelings of sitting down with a good fantasy novel. (There are other ways, outside of prose, that the games narrative as a form can be pushed that are newer and more interesting, anyway.) There were times where I feel we hit the target and times where we missed, and for now the goal is to get more consistent about hitting it.

 

I would love to see what a Shakespeare- or Miller-written RPG would read like, incidentally.

[Teioh_White]

 

Did...I see PS:T compared to a JP VN? I guess if one looks at what the medium could be, and not how it's actually implemented, I could see it. But off the top of my head, I'm not thinking of a great many that even get close to trying to do something like that. The genre is pretty overwhelmingly geared in a more...physical direction? Even the ones that try to more than that still have to start with that premise as it's core, as that's just how things are done in the land of Japan.

 

But as for the Text in Pillars, I've never had a problem with it at all. It's not like Hong Kong was, with the most pointless NPC's would yammer on about things both boring and unconnected to anything.

 

I do agree though that the demo that likes PS:T isn't exactly the same demo that would like something like IcewindDale.

 

It's funny, I would actually pay big bucks for a PS:T visual novel. Hmmm... Maybe something to look into.

 

Oh, I could def see PS:T, or something similar, making a kick ass VN. The medium is perfectly capable of excelling at telling that kind of story. I'd honestly prefer it; what gameplay there is in Torment just gets in the way.

 

It's just Japan has chosen to use the VN medium has led to a genre with a rather...different..focus. Ugh, now I'm thinking of a pre-teen Really 700 Years Old Ravel in some weird love rhombus with Anna, Grace, and TNO. These are not good thoughts.

[Bryy]

The White March is a lot better in this regard. There's much less descriptive dialogue in it and there's usually two lines of text max in every dialogue box.

Yeah.

 

TWM overall is a vast improvement to the base game in a variety of ways, but dialogue is a big one. Very few $1 words. Everything is a $10 word.

[Stoner]

Hmm, can't say Pillars text overall was overwhelming, I had a few moments talking to Backer NPCs when text was getting rather thick, but that's not really adressed to the game itself. Also when I tried to read every book, but then I stopped and read only those I was most interested in. And how exactly it is developers' problem, if player gets into cRPG, skipping text while missing out on important info?...

 

It's important to note (IMO) that genre along with setting puts some restrictions to manner of presentation, and language of Pillars absolutely feels just in place, exactly as it should be, that's not a small accomplishment in my book.

 

On WM, I can speak only for the first part yet, but only thing I noticed is that it maintained same style, and that's beautiful. I don't see it as "easy/hard" read, because mainly I don't perceive original game as such.

 

 

But as for the Text in Pillars, I've never had a problem with it at all. It's not like Hong Kong was, with the most pointless NPC's would yammer on about things both boring and unconnected to anything.

That's strange statement... I see both SR:D and HK as a great example to how text and dialogues should be presented in any RPG. But than again, it's opinions probably, plus SR devs hands were more free with writing style, it doesn't follow set in stone, very specific enviroment, unlike PoE.

[Grimo88]

Really is a sign of the times when people find reading a chore. Come back in 50 or so years when society has inevitably collapsed back into feudalism and literacy is once again treated as a coveted, elite skill... 

 

But in all seriousness, my one quibble with the text-based stuff is that the descriptions used when the gods talk to you are so achingly beautiful I'd love to see them animated. 

[Katarack21]

Really is a sign of the times when people find reading a chore. Come back in 50 or so years when society has inevitably collapsed back into feudalism and literacy is once again treated as a coveted, elite skill... 

 

But in all seriousness, my one quibble with the text-based stuff is that the descriptions used when the gods talk to you are so achingly beautiful I'd love to see them animated. 

Naw. Things are just changing. Part of it's the rise of computers; the graphical icon-based interface coupled with the global transmission of visual mediums like movies and TV shows have engendered a generation that's more comfortable with that. Much like how the rise of TV entirely killed most peoples ability to "see" with their ears in radio dramas.

[Ymarsakar]

To provide some illustrations and elaboration on the previous Visual novel topic:

 

Japan tends to combine and hybridize genres together, such as science fiction, fantasy, and RPG (grinding) epic journeys. But the number one genre connecting visual novels together would probably be romance, and then secondly adventure, with action/rpg/simulation being close afterwards.

 

That means the demographic links to BG2 romance mods. Mass Effect romance characters. Planescape Torment, the weird Love Triangle Between Anna/Grace/MC. But no matter how you slice that one apart, it was still two romances.

*************

I don't have any complaints about the writing in Pillars or White March. What I usually notice is how the writing is integrated into the game design, the gameplay, the companion background/stories, and the actual game mechanics. Some of it could do with some iteration improvements.

 

I like Durance's lore stories, since it gives me a better read on his character, if I'm the one interrogating him, rather than someone narrating for him (like those epilogues do). Shadowrun npc backgrounds are always nice mini stories within a primary plot. The backer beta NPCs had interesting stories, but very blackhole ish gameplay. Meaning, no gameplay other than clicking on it. Which might be interesting reading a book... if it wasn't 55+ short stories that weren't more than a page long...

 

Maerwald was a pretty good intro, maybe due to the voice tones. The reason why people didn't understand it is because the "Watcher" thing is too abstract. The player has no idea what it means or how it is used in the game. For someone who read all the lorebooks on Pillars wiki before playing the game, it is much easier to understand. Of course, I did do that. Reading that small text in game is bad. Reading online, is good.

 

A close approximation to PST as a visual novel might be Utawarerumono the PC RPG VN. For obvious reasons.

 

As for Ravel, she would be the yandere that is threatening your relationship, of course. So a mix of romance/horror/zombie survival.

 

 

 

 

Did...I see PS:T compared to a JP VN?

 

It's funny, I would actually pay big bucks for a PS:T visual novel. Hmmm... Maybe something to look into.

 

Oh, I could def see PS:T, or something similar, making a kick ass VN. The medium is perfectly capable of excelling at telling that kind of story. I'd honestly prefer it; what gameplay there is in Torment just gets in the way.

 

It's just Japan has chosen to use the VN medium has led to a genre with a rather...different..focus. Ugh, now I'm thinking of a pre-teen Really 700 Years Old Ravel in some weird love rhombus with Anna, Grace, and TNO. These are not good thoughts.

 

 

PST would fit closer to what Nitro Plus puts out. Chaos;Head , Steins;gate, stuff like that. Very different atmosphere.

Edited March 3, 2016 by Ymarsakar

[Lord_Mord]

 

is not a problem o' exposition, but is rare that a character speaking thus would be anything other than unnatural. as evocative as were joyce at his best, am doubting a game would benefit from more than a little o' such prose. honestly, how would such stuff fit in the ordinary dialogue-heavy text o' a game? there is a few instances o' narration in poe, but the text o' poe is most often dialogue.

 

I want to buy this game, you are talking about. The only problem I can see is: Who shall translate it into german? Shurely not the guys who translated PoE.

[Teioh_White]

Yeah, the Nitro Plus stuff is pretty much what I mean when JP VN try to be more than just romancing little girls. It's still gotta have those little girls, but it'll try to do something not entirely insipid with them. Just a fact in JP, if you want a VN, you can't still start fresh; it has to have at it's core the dating sim element. Some folks, like NP, build some decent stuff on that, but they're not free to start wherever they want.

[Ymarsakar]

Yeah, the Nitro Plus stuff is pretty much what I mean when JP VN try to be more than just romancing little girls. It's still gotta have those little girls, but it'll try to do something not entirely insipid with them. Just a fact in JP, if you want a VN, you can't still start fresh; it has to have at it's core the dating sim element. Some folks, like NP, build some decent stuff on that, but they're not free to start wherever they want.

 

That's true of game companies and publishers before Kickstarter too. The more money they have, the less freedom, because they have to sell something to somebody. They have license limitations, money may prevent them from starting fresh, 4x genre limitations may demand unfreshness, games have to have certain elements in it.Their only freedom is whether to choose to do business or not. But before the internet and what not, Japan had created its own market category of how to sell products and make a living off of it. The pre internet Kickstarter so to speak. Which would be fan cons and various sub culture products, like light novels or manga and their various fan derivations.

 

The US also had its various artistic communities back in 1950, before they were destroyed or wiped out by larger organizations.

Edited March 3, 2016 by Ymarsakar

[Teioh_White]

I mean, I'm not arguing that it's the only genre that has limitations placed on it's concept that aren't inherent to the medium itself. I'm just saying, for Japanese VN's, that limitation is it's got to have little girls in it.

 

And I could totes see JP PS:T VN; pre-teen Ravel (ugh, could even fill the tentacle spot without breaking lore), gender flip and de-age Dakkaon, make fireboy a fire girl and clearly Modron is now a robo girl. Heck, Morte's already a perfect Bromatic Foil too! Wouldn't have to alter the story a great deal, just add the mandatory teasing and away we go.

Edited March 3, 2016 by Teioh_White

[Ignatius]

Maerwald would have been cool if instead of going through his identities through dialogue, you went through them in combat, where his first form would be more barbarian, then you get him to a certain point, and he starts casting spells. This would illustrate his madness through game play. Or perhaps a combination of the two, but more heavy focus on displaying through game play, which we all love.

 

Generally, I think WM made improvements. PoE just suffers because there are several instances at the start of the game where you're just going from talking head to talking head. I can deal with a long conversation so long as it's well spaced out.

 

My favorite time to have those is always after a long dungeon, lots of exploring, quests, a big battle. I recall that MotB had a few downright massive conversations, but by the time you got there, you were exhausted and ready to do some talking. And talking to and arguing with a god is always a plus.

 

Take heart, Obsidian. You're still nowhere as bad as Hideo Kojima's narrative... style. Not by a country mile. Haha.

Edited March 3, 2016 by Ignatius

[the_dog_days]

I think it's highly dependant on what games we are talking here. If that's pop-corn blockbusters like Dragon Age or Mass Effect than yes, voice acting is rather mandatory, but cRPG is actually floating unique genre that binds together literature, music and visual arts. If individual used to reading alot, in my humble opinion that person has pretty vivid imagination and even superb VA may ruin it. I can't speak for all, but for me it's often the case, the voice and manner of speaking of certain charater sometimes breaking up real bad from what I imagine would fit.

On the side note, specifically for PoE VA breaks narrative flow pretty hard, I just can't get over it...

This isn't directed at anyone in particular, but the best game in the series had an unvoiced protagonist. It was when BioWare announced that DA2 would have a fully voiced protagonist that I sensed the impending doom of the franchise as a quality role-playing experience.

Edited March 3, 2016 by the_dog_days

[illathid]

I mean, I'm not arguing that it's the only genre that has limitations placed on it's concept that aren't inherent to the medium itself. I'm just saying, for Japanese VN's, that limitation is it's got to have little girls in it.

 

And I could totes see JP PS:T VN; pre-teen Ravel (ugh, could even fill the tentacle spot without breaking lore), gender flip and de-age Dakkaon, make fireboy a fire girl and clearly Modron is now a robo girl. Heck, Morte's already a perfect Bromatic Foil too! Wouldn't have to alter the story a great deal, just add the mandatory teasing and away we go.

lol

 

I don't think you'd need to go that far myself. There's VN that don't go full harem, so you could probably get by with just Annah and Fall-from-grace.

 

As I side note, I think I may start looking around to see if there's any "build your own" VN software out there.

[Ymarsakar]

I mean, I'm not arguing that it's the only genre that has limitations placed on it's concept that aren't inherent to the medium itself. I'm just saying, for Japanese VN's, that limitation is it's got to have little girls in it.

 

 

 

True, but the limitation is only to the sub genre in the VNs for bishoujo games. For otome and the other variations, the flip tends to be reversed. Instead of being 9 females, 1 male plus his male side kick funny guy (batman and robin), otome games have a 7 to 3 or 9 to 1 ratio in favor of men. Yojimbo (bodyguard) might be a good example of that genre.

 

 

 

I think it's highly dependant on what games we are talking here. If that's pop-corn blockbusters like Dragon Age or Mass Effect than yes, voice acting is rather mandatory, but cRPG is actually floating unique genre that binds together literature, music and visual arts. If individual used to reading alot, in my humble opinion that person has pretty vivid imagination and even superb VA may ruin it. I can't speak for all, but for me it's often the case, the voice and manner of speaking of certain charater sometimes breaking up real bad from what I imagine would fit.

On the side note, specifically for PoE VA breaks narrative flow pretty hard, I just can't get over it...

This isn't directed at anyone in particular, but the best game in the series had an unvoiced protagonist. It was when BioWare announced that DA2 would have a fully voiced protagonist that I sensed the impending doom of the franchise as a quality role-playing experience.

 

Are you referring to Dragon Age 1? If not, which best game in the series?

Edited March 3, 2016 by Ymarsakar

[Stoner]

 

I think it's highly dependant on what games we are talking here. If that's pop-corn blockbusters like Dragon Age or Mass Effect than yes, voice acting is rather mandatory, but cRPG is actually floating unique genre that binds together literature, music and visual arts. If individual used to reading alot, in my humble opinion that person has pretty vivid imagination and even superb VA may ruin it. I can't speak for all, but for me it's often the case, the voice and manner of speaking of certain charater sometimes breaking up real bad from what I imagine would fit.

On the side note, specifically for PoE VA breaks narrative flow pretty hard, I just can't get over it...

This isn't directed at anyone in particular, but the best game in the series had an unvoiced protagonist. It was when BioWare announced that DA2 would have a fully voiced protagonist that I sensed the impending doom of the franchise as a quality role-playing experience.

 

In all honesty I can't view any DA game as RPG, so no "doom" happened for me. Those more like Hollywood actions here, all MEs and DAs in the same bucket, high budget pop-corn entertainment, and IMO DA2 was absolutely the best, but highly delusional pseudo-RPG loving audience would certainly disagree...

 

On the main point - agreed, unvoiced protagonist is the way to go, though we still have a choice of voice in any decent RPG used mostly in combat & short replics, and I'm perfectly fine with it.

[Kurtsuckert]

On 2/28/2016 at 8:27 PM, Tigranes said:

 

No, it isn't. It is well known amongst those who read historical works or otherwise have an awareness of writing over history that 'conciseness', which now means 'plain simple words, short sentences, minimal poetic language', etc, etc, only became a golden rule for every kind of writing over the last century (at most). It is no coincidence that this has happened where poetry has become relatively marginalised, scholarly work has been forced to become basically a more pretentious form of journalism, and journalism itself has become so 'concise' sometimes that it is hardly worth reading. In other words, the insistence that everything is written in the same plain style has solved some inefficiencies while destroying many good kinds of diversity. There is no reason to say anything and everything should be concise as if there was one rule for writing.

 

Old post though...

I am pretty sure Thucydid and Tacitus, or any of the classical athenian or roman author, would disagree with you, for they are nothing but concise, and have quite a dry style.
And as for XVII's french century authors, such as Racine, they aspire to express the most complex feelings through the fewest words.

 

 

[RyanSttret87]

I love that in POE and other games like POE a lot of text and i just live in another world with another tale! This is amazing