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bad design decisions

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#1
ctn2003

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upon finding out a few things i have become kinda confused about some of the choices they have made with poe.   no ambient sounds or movie sounds sliders on release and wont be able to drop itemes on the ground???  I mean this is standerd stuff Wastland 2 you have all of this. 

 

whats really weird is theirs a space in the sound opens menu like they wher planing on it but cutt it out? ;( sutch a huge shame :shrugz: How about you guys think poe NEEDS sliders and droping itemes on the ground? or is it crazy talk?


Edited by ctn2003, 18 January 2015 - 10:05 PM.

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#2
archangel979

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If it was only that...
1. No running away from combat (not talking about engagement)
2. Infinite stash available everywhere
3. You cannot change weapons from inventory during combat (or give it to other characters)
4. Lack of ammo and as result lack of all kinds of cool magical ammo
5. Combat log in terrible position (or lack of being able to place it where we want it)
6. Camera angle not good enough
7. No walking state, only running.
My pet peeve:
8. Elder name given to animals to present them as stronger when older animals are only weaker. Elder is name give to MAGICAL creatures that become stronger with age like Vampires or Dragons. Lion when old become weak and lose pack leader status (if they even had it, most just become old).

Edited by archangel979, 19 January 2015 - 12:51 AM.

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#3
PrimeJunta

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Opinions, opinions.

 

1. Agree -- running away should be an option

2. HALLELUJAH! ALL PRAISE THE GREAT JOSH! I bloody HATE the IE inventory. Infinite stash for the great win!

3. Disagree strongly. This is a good change as it forces you to think about your quickslot choices. Hated the way quickslots worked in the IE games, it was just mindless busywork.

4. Agree that magical ammo would be cool. Having unlimited "standard" ammo doesn't preclude that though. It would need UI controls though.

5. Agree, it should be in the center.

6. Agree, it should be higher. Not a huge deal though.

7. I never walked in the IE games. Never ever. So don't care.

8. Good point. Never thought of that.


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#4
Luckmann

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If it was only that...
1. No running away from combat (not talking about engagement)
2. Infinite stash available everywhere
3. You cannot change weapons from inventory during combat (or give it to other characters)
4. Lack of ammo and as result lack of all kinds of cool magical ammo
5. Combat log in terrible position (or lack of being able to place it where we want it)
6. Camera angle not good enough
7. No walking state, only running.
My pet peeve:
8. Elder name given to animals to present them as stronger when older animals are only weaker. Elder is name give to MAGICAL creatures that become stronger with age like Vampires or Dragons. Lion when old become weak and lose pack leader status (if they even had it, most just become old).

 

I agree with all these except arguably 3, but above all else, you missed the single most annoying ****ty goddamn ****ing hnnnrrrgh thing:

9. "Combat Only" abilities preventing initiation of combat with a power.

Also, I'd like to add:

10. No individual stealthing and everyone unstealths automatically at the start of combat, preventing any tactical use of stealth, as well as initiating combat with individual characters. Imagine having multiple rogues that all want to initiate combat with stealth, but at different times.


Edited by Luckmann, 19 January 2015 - 01:05 AM.

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#5
PrimeJunta

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Agree about 9 and 10.



#6
Killyox

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If it was only that...
1. No running away from combat (not talking about engagement)
2. Infinite stash available everywhere
3. You cannot change weapons from inventory during combat (or give it to other characters)
4. Lack of ammo and as result lack of all kinds of cool magical ammo
5. Combat log in terrible position (or lack of being able to place it where we want it)
6. Camera angle not good enough
7. No walking state, only running.
My pet peeve:
8. Elder name given to animals to present them as stronger when older animals are only weaker. Elder is name give to MAGICAL creatures that become stronger with age like Vampires or Dragons. Lion when old become weak and lose pack leader status (if they even had it, most just become old).

 

1) explain

2) i find it good

3) I don't mind it, plan ahead

4) it's good, in IWD and so you would always buy thousands of ammo anyways so they made it more convenient

5) I agree with not being able to move it

6) I actually like this angle

7) Does it matter?

8) Elder Lion may connect to a lion in his prime instead of being a cub or a younf male. Besides this is magical world. Maybe these lions are not our own lions. Doesn;t bother me all that much


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#7
Killyox

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I agree with all these except arguably 3, but above all else, you missed the single most annoying ****ty goddamn ****ing hnnnrrrgh thing:

9. "Combat Only" abilities preventing initiation of combat with a power.

Also, I'd like to add:

10. No individual stealthing and everyone unstealths automatically at the start of combat, preventing any tactical use of stealth, as well as initiating combat with individual characters. Imagine having multiple rogues that all want to initiate combat with stealth, but at different times.

 

Agreed on 9 & 10



#8
archangel979

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Opinions, opinions.
 
1. Agree -- running away should be an option
2. HALLELUJAH! ALL PRAISE THE GREAT JOSH! I bloody HATE the IE inventory. Infinite stash for the great win!
3. Disagree strongly. This is a good change as it forces you to think about your quickslot choices. Hated the way quickslots worked in the IE games, it was just mindless busywork.
4. Agree that magical ammo would be cool. Having unlimited "standard" ammo doesn't preclude that though. It would need UI controls though.
5. Agree, it should be in the center.
6. Agree, it should be higher. Not a huge deal though.
7. I never walked in the IE games. Never ever. So don't care.
8. Good point. Never thought of that.

2. I don't mind infinity stash, but I mind it being used anywhere. As effect it makes it so picking up everything no matter how worthless is no choice. Designs that take away meaningful choice are bad designs.
3. I am not saying IE quickslots were top designs, they were irritating a lot (not being able to put any two handed weapon in quickslot while dual wielding something = grrrrrrr!!!), but it is stupid to not let players also change things from inventory directly. Forbidding it does not bring any greated tactics, only punishes those that forget to set up all quickslots. The point of quickslots is to make combat go faster so you don't have to enter inventory.
7. ?? You could only walk in IE games. And it let you get off AoE spells at enemies before they closed into melee.

Edited by archangel979, 19 January 2015 - 01:56 AM.


#9
PrimeJunta

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@archangel There's a toggle in the game options for "Access stash anywhere."
 

Re the quickslots and "access inventory anywhere," I like the specifically because they punish you for failing to plan ahead. I don't hear you whining that BG(2) punishes you for failing to memorize the right spells. Similar mechanic, with similar fun. 

 

Re 7, haha. I honestly don't pay much attention to how moving around the map is animated. It's about the same speed in the IE games and the P:E BB, and feels about right to me. Some monsters move fast, for sure (the spiders for example) but then you had plenty of fast monsters in them too.



#10
archangel979

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If it was only that...
1. No running away from combat (not talking about engagement)
2. Infinite stash available everywhere
3. You cannot change weapons from inventory during combat (or give it to other characters)
4. Lack of ammo and as result lack of all kinds of cool magical ammo
5. Combat log in terrible position (or lack of being able to place it where we want it)
6. Camera angle not good enough
7. No walking state, only running.
My pet peeve:
8. Elder name given to animals to present them as stronger when older animals are only weaker. Elder is name give to MAGICAL creatures that become stronger with age like Vampires or Dragons. Lion when old become weak and lose pack leader status (if they even had it, most just become old).

 
1) explain
2) i find it good
3) I don't mind it, plan ahead
4) it's good, in IWD and so you would always buy thousands of ammo anyways so they made it more convenient
5) I agree with not being able to move it
6) I actually like this angle
7) Does it matter?
cool.png Elder Lion may connect to a lion in his prime instead of being a cub or a younf male. Besides this is magical world. Maybe these lions are not our own lions. Doesn;t bother me all that much

1. You cannot exit or enter anything while in combat. Since enemy will follow you, you cannot run away from combat if you are losing. In IE games you could run away, ress your dead members and come back later. Here they could let you get new members and come back later to pick up stuff from fallen allies. Lack of this feature will be especially important for those that will play on Ironman.
7. It does. Always running looks stupid. And makes different abilities weaker.

#11
Gorbag

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If it was only that...
1. No running away from combat (not talking about engagement)
2. Infinite stash available everywhere
3. You cannot change weapons from inventory during combat (or give it to other characters)
4. Lack of ammo and as result lack of all kinds of cool magical ammo
5. Combat log in terrible position (or lack of being able to place it where we want it)
6. Camera angle not good enough
7. No walking state, only running.
My pet peeve:
8. Elder name given to animals to present them as stronger when older animals are only weaker. Elder is name give to MAGICAL creatures that become stronger with age like Vampires or Dragons. Lion when old become weak and lose pack leader status (if they even had it, most just become old).

1. While I agree that running away is a viable option, how often did you run away from combat in IE games? In those games it only worked when enemies were too big or too slow to chase you, or when you are allowed to exit a map while in combat and the AI does not allow enemies to follow you (which kind of made it feel like an exploit).
2. I see it as a permanent bag of holding. Those were insanely useful in IE games, so I don't think having one from the start is bad. The choice on whether to use it or not (and how extensively you would use it - like throwing everything you come across in there) is entirely up to you. For me, having crafting components in a game always creates an inventory clutter, so I'm just going to throw those in the stash and only use them if I need them.
3. Not a thing for me. I always put any weapon I feel I'd need in a quickslot. Now that I can equip a ranged/two handed weapon and an off-hand, I don't think I'd ever need to add anything from my inventory during combat. 
4. Agree on special ammo. Conventional ammo, on the other hand, was both cluttering the inventory and causing unnecessary backtracks. Even IE games had infinite bags/quivers and magical ammoless bows for that.
5. Yeah, it's not in the center as usual, but I think I'll live.
6. I'll have to play it for some time to see if it irks me (I'm not playing the BB).
7. I don't know if the standard movement in IE games is considered walking or running, but I've only ever used that, unless I had some speed amplifiers.
8. Didn't think about that before. I personally prefer enemies to be named based on what they do (like orc shaman, kobold commando, goblin trapper, etc.), or having different types of creatures based on their abilities (like sword spider, vampiric wolf, cave bear, etc.)
Agree on 9 and 10.


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#12
archangel979

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@archangel There's a toggle in the game options for "Access stash anywhere."
 
Re the quickslots and "access inventory anywhere," I like the specifically because they punish you for failing to plan ahead. I don't hear you whining that BG(2) punishes you for failing to memorize the right spells. Similar mechanic, with similar fun. 
 
Re 7, haha. I honestly don't pay much attention to how moving around the map is animated. It's about the same speed in the IE games and the P:E BB, and feels about right to me. Some monsters move fast, for sure (the spiders for example) but then you had plenty of fast monsters in them too.

That is stupid to have such an option. It makes gameplay a lot different. It should be at least part of difficulty.

And I don't see how you can compare quickslots with spells. Quickslots in all games are an UI feature, while spells are a gameplay feature.

#13
PrimeJunta

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@Gorbag The possibility to run from a fight is pret-t-ty crucial for anyone attempting Ironman/Trial of Iron. 

 

@archangel I like that they made quickslots a gameplay feature rather than a UI one. It gets some actual utility out of them.

 

Edit: in re the unlimited stash toggle, now who's concerned about how somebody else plays their game?

 

In any case, I disagree about that. Making the stash not access-anywhere wouldn't lead to any particularly interesting strategic decisions. There's plenty of inventory space to hold whatever you're likely to need on your adventure anyway. All restricted stash access brings is drudgery -- having to play inventory tetris when you rest or are at shops. As I said, I detest inventory tetris, it's dull, rote, and a time sink.

 

Deciding what goes into a handful of quickslots, now, that does require some planning, and is therefore more interesting and adds an additional challenge.


Edited by PrimeJunta, 19 January 2015 - 02:24 AM.

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#14
Sensuki

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If it was only that...
1. No running away from combat (not talking about engagement)


I agree with this one. I don't like this either. If the developers don't accommodate us with this, it can be modded out.
 

2. Infinite stash available everywhere


This is an option. I prefer it to be enabled everywhere because it makes the inventory less annoying, and since you can craft/enchant anywhere as well.
 

3. You cannot change weapons from inventory during combat (or give it to other characters)


You can in the IE mod original.gif
 

4. Lack of ammo and as result lack of all kinds of cool magical ammo


I agree about this one. Different kinds of ammo, and special ammo would have been cool. Not super upset about it though.
 

5. Combat log in terrible position (or lack of being able to place it where we want it)


Agree about this one.
 

6. Camera angle not good enough


I too would prefer a higher isometric angle for outside as well as inside, it would also be much more practical.
 

7. No walking state, only running.


Yeah I think walking would have been better. In future expansions etc they could have a combat movement animation or something. Probably expensive to make though.
 

My pet peeve:
8. Elder name given to animals to present them as stronger when older animals are only weaker. Elder is name give to MAGICAL creatures that become stronger with age like Vampires or Dragons. Lion when old become weak and lose pack leader status (if they even had it, most just become old).


Kind of agree about this one, but you can simply edit the string file yourself and change it to whatever you want.

This isn't a super constructive thread but I might have some more points to add later when I have some more energy.

Edited by Sensuki, 19 January 2015 - 02:27 AM.

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#15
archangel979

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@Gorbag: As Prime said. I also like to do solo Ironman runs in BG1 and running away from combat not going my way it very important.
And even anyone trying to load the game as little as possible is going to be wanting to run away if they can.

@Prime: I hate any game that uses quickslots UI feature to create stupid gameplay restrictions. I hated it in D3, I hated it in Path of Exile and I will hate it in PoE. Bester's mod already allows this, I just want to see it in normal game as well. At least put it as an option like they did with access stash anywhere (which I will be sure to turn off).

Another problem:
11. Turning off UI helpers, you have no idea what your characters are doing. The current action icon that is normally over the head of character also needs to be somewhere else on UI (like next to their portrait).

#16
PrimeJunta

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@archangel Unlike unlimited stash access, inventory access during combat does make a significant difference to difficulty though. But by all means mod it out.

 

Agree about 11. On the other hand I've gotten used to the combat tooltips; they get the job done decently enough... or would, if the FX weren't making it hard to see who's who.



#17
Gladiuss8@gmail.com

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Lack of ammo is the biggest let down for me... I can't imagine any Infinite engine game without ammo and all kinds of stuff to throw (daggers) etc. 

 

Also, when I found out that there are magical wands with infinite ammo I was like WHAT ? Like in Mmorpg ?  Goddammit. 

It was so cool in IE games, that mages had to choose between staffs and something like slingshot. And now it will be only PEWPEWPEW, forever.


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#18
archangel979

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I also hate HP overhead and damage numbers popping up in games I play. I turn off those in aRPGs and RTS as well if it is possible. I usually just leave critical hits numbers for aRPGs and show HP of units only for damaged units in RTS if such options exist.
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#19
PrimeJunta

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Wands in P:E are nothing like wands in the IE games though. They're just a ranged attack.

 

(Also, in the IE games the wizard wouldn't be able to hit the side of a barn door with anything anyway, so it didn't really matter what weapon you gave him.)



#20
archangel979

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Lack of ammo is the biggest let down for me... I can't imagine any Infinite engine game without ammo and all kinds of stuff to throw (daggers) etc. 
 
Also, when I found out that there are magical wands with infinite ammo I was like WHAT ? Like in Mmorpg ?  Goddammit. 
It was so cool in IE games, that mages had to choose between staffs and something like slingshot. And now it will be only PEWPEWPEW, forever.

Well mages having unlimited simple spells through implements (wands, rods and staffs) is from D&D 4e (which is Sawyer's fav D&D). It is not about wands having infinite ammo but mages wielding them having it.

In 5e they scaled it back a bit and just given wizards infinite cantrips (0 level spells) that are simple attack spells which they can use without anything but their magical power.

Edited by archangel979, 19 January 2015 - 02:42 AM.

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