Jump to content

Welcome to Obsidian Forum Community
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

Lies, lying in conversation

conversation morality lying game mechanics

  • Please log in to reply
67 replies to this topic

Poll: LIES DAMN LIES (130 member(s) have cast votes)

When do you think lying should be possible?

  1. Always! All obey the Trickster! False rumours are his gospel :D (90 votes [41.10%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 41.10%

  2. When asked about facts (44 votes [20.09%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 20.09%

  3. When related to personal beliefs (39 votes [17.81%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 17.81%

  4. When related to quests (43 votes [19.63%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 19.63%

  5. Very seldom (3 votes [1.37%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 1.37%

  6. Never (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

Should lies be explicitly marked in dialogue, or be implicit?

  1. Always explicit (84 votes [64.62%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 64.62%

  2. Explicit when quest-related (19 votes [14.62%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 14.62%

  3. Always implicit (27 votes [20.77%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 20.77%

Should lying require a successful skill/ability roll

  1. Yes, always (66 votes [50.77%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 50.77%

  2. Only when quest-related (13 votes [10.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 10.00%

  3. Only when concerning facts, not personal beliefs (35 votes [26.92%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 26.92%

  4. No, never (16 votes [12.31%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 12.31%

Vote Guests cannot vote

#1
OliverUv

OliverUv

    (1) Prestidigitator

  • Members
  • 14 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer

Lying is important. In Planescape, it was common that two or three of the dialogue options one had was marked with [Lie]. You could lie about many things, not simply quest things like "Did Leandro steal my things?" but lying about personal beliefs, intentions, etc.

 

I've seen other RPGs incorporate lying, but only P:T would have the same identical lines available, one marked with [Lie] and the other without.

 

I also understand it would be hard work to incorporate it into the game world, but the ability to spread false rumours, create arbitrary conflicts, and in general get factions, organizations and people into hostilities with each other would simply be... terrific. I don't think I've seen this in any game before, but it was an immensely important tool in the noble's power struggles, historically. To depict a power struggle without giving room to lies is a mistake.

 

When is it appropriate for lying to require a successful die roll? Discussion and answers to poll appreciated.

 

Does anybody have examples of when lies have been overused, or badly used, in game before? I'm sure there must be some examples to heed.


  • SophosTheWise likes this

#2
Papalopoulos

Papalopoulos

    (0) Nub

  • Initiates
  • 1 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer

I think that lies are important in games, specially in RPG.

 

When you like evil sides you could lie for several reason, making conflicts, make people suffer, send them to a trap, fool them and so on.

So it's a part oh your character that exist in you every day life, not just in quest time.

 

But it must be a two side effects as if the npc realize you'v tried to fool him your level of respect can go low depending of who you try to fool.

I think it could be a "simple" effect as if you lie to someone but in an other conversation you say things in an other way thoses npc could meet each other and discover your lies.

 

People could also see that you lie and could react differently, nicely and say don't fool me, attack you, spread your lies...

 

Well anyway my poor examples, lies are interesting in game because they give some oportunities to set out of the main line.

 

 

About the rolling issue i think that liying is not natural and not every one have the same reaction. So it's not as simple as you can lie for everyone and they all trust you.



#3
maggotheart

maggotheart

    (4) Theurgist

  • Members
  • 201 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer

Lying should have nothing to do with being 'evil'. People lie every day for many different reasons and it doesn't make them evil or bad people.

 

One game that came out recently 'The Walking Dead' featured lying in the conversation system. In that game, you have a reputation with each individual that can get affected if you arent honest with them and they catch you.


Edited by maggotheart, 30 January 2013 - 08:33 AM.

  • Ieo and JFSOCC like this

#4
Lephys

Lephys

    Punsmith of the Obsidian Order

  • Members
  • 7006 posts
  • Location:The Punforge
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer

I think an important notion to take from the OP, though, is the importance of denoting the intent of a dialogue choice.

 

"Sure, we'd be glad to help make sure no one disturbs your wagon" should allow you to choose your reasoning for doing so, right then and there. Otherwise, it's kind of like you've got Schrodinger's intent. You're both selfless AND a lying bastard, until you actually choose whether or not to go against your word.

 

You're either want to screw someone over, or you don't. Just like how you can't start slaughtering people, then stop and say "Just kidding, I want peace and don't think hostility is a good idea, really."

 

Mainly, though, you often run into the conflict of not really knowing if you're committing (via unseen game code) to an oath, or misleading someone, because the text conveys no tone or intent without some kind of indicator.

 

The worst examples of this I've ever seen are the dialogue options in some games that initiate an attack, but don't say they do.

 

"Well, I'm not so sure you will..." in response to "We should be long gone by tonight" doesn't TELL me I'm about to attack them. It only suggests that my character doubts the likelihood that they'll be long gone by tonight. Maybe I wanted to tell them about some things that might cause them delay. Why did the game assume I wanted to kill them, and not tell ME that it assumed that?! :)


  • Ieo, general_azure, GrinningReaper659 and 2 others like this

#5
Ulquiorra

Ulquiorra

    (5) Thaumaturgist

  • Members
  • 488 posts
  • Location:Mielec, Poland

I sudges next therad "Telling thuth in conversations" :p or "Not telling anything in conversations" thread as next ...



#6
Lephys

Lephys

    Punsmith of the Obsidian Order

  • Members
  • 7006 posts
  • Location:The Punforge
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
Really? I'd go with "Get up out of that! You've got conversation all over your new coat!" as the sequel thread. 8)

Edited by Lephys, 30 January 2013 - 06:28 PM.


#7
JFSOCC

JFSOCC

    Mentor & Student of the Obsidian Order

  • Members
  • 2253 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
But could it be colour coded rather than tagged? Red for a lie, normal for truth?
  • .Leif. likes this

#8
Ulquiorra

Ulquiorra

    (5) Thaumaturgist

  • Members
  • 488 posts
  • Location:Mielec, Poland

But could it be colour coded rather than tagged? Red for a lie, normal for truth?

Green for being polite ? Pink for being **** and yellow for "I don't care" ? ike in Dragon Age 2 ?

 

I hawe only one answer for this ..

 

 

die.gif_thumb.jpg



#9
jivex5k

jivex5k

    (5) Thaumaturgist

  • Members
  • 462 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer

Guys they already said this would be in the game. [lie]


  • JFSOCC likes this

#10
JFSOCC

JFSOCC

    Mentor & Student of the Obsidian Order

  • Members
  • 2253 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer


But could it be colour coded rather than tagged? Red for a lie, normal for truth?

Green for being polite ? Pink for being **** and yellow for "I don't care" ? ike in Dragon Age 2 ?
 
I hawe only one answer for this ..
 
 
die.gif_thumb.jpg


that is adorable. Can you explain why you don't think this is a good idea?

Edited by JFSOCC, 31 January 2013 - 07:34 AM.


#11
Ulquiorra

Ulquiorra

    (5) Thaumaturgist

  • Members
  • 488 posts
  • Location:Mielec, Poland

 

But could it be colour coded rather than tagged? Red for a lie, normal for truth?

Green for being polite ? Pink for being **** and yellow for "I don't care" ? ike in Dragon Age 2 ?
 
I hawe only one answer for this ..
 
 
die.gif_thumb.jpg

 

that is adorable. Can you explain why you don't think this is a good idea?

 

Becouse i personaly think that led by the hand or facilitate and helping me on every step :)



#12
JFSOCC

JFSOCC

    Mentor & Student of the Obsidian Order

  • Members
  • 2253 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer




But could it be colour coded rather than tagged? Red for a lie, normal for truth?

Green for being polite ? Pink for being **** and yellow for "I don't care" ? ike in Dragon Age 2 ?
 
I hawe only one answer for this ..
 
 
die.gif_thumb.jpg


that is adorable. Can you explain why you don't think this is a good idea?


 
Becouse i personaly think that led by the hand or facilitate and helping me on every step :)


You need to work on your English, no offence meant. I take that to mean you don't want hand-holding. which is a sentiment I fully agree with. However, colour coding intent is merely clarification, not the same as telling you which option is better.
We had a big discussion about it a while back

Edited by JFSOCC, 31 January 2013 - 08:38 AM.


#13
Ulquiorra

Ulquiorra

    (5) Thaumaturgist

  • Members
  • 488 posts
  • Location:Mielec, Poland

Why colored then ? Why not simple " (lie) " for example

 

anna died but in converastion with christofer you have

 

1. Anna died sorry mate

2. (Lie) Anna is alive she is waitin for you



#14
JFSOCC

JFSOCC

    Mentor & Student of the Obsidian Order

  • Members
  • 2253 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer

Because I believe a [tag] is immersion breaking, and I think a colour might not be. it's true, I'm not sure.

1. Anna died sorry mate
2. Anna is alive she is waitin for you


Edited by JFSOCC, 31 January 2013 - 08:55 AM.


#15
Somna

Somna

    (4) Theurgist

  • Members
  • 263 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
 

Because I believe a [tag] is immersion breaking, and I think a colour might not be. it's true, I'm not sure.

1. Anna died sorry mate
2. Anna is alive she is waitin for you

Pretty sure they will use tags in case the player is color-blind. Sawyer says he is red/green colorblind, for example.
  • OliverUv likes this

#16
maggotheart

maggotheart

    (4) Theurgist

  • Members
  • 201 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer

There could be neither a tag nor a color code, and you just have to be paying attention to know what is a lying response and what is not. Part of the problem with being a liar is keeping track of your own lies, it might be more immersive to make the player think before speaking and have to remember what he said.


  • TheMufflon and Ulquiorra like this

#17
Ulquiorra

Ulquiorra

    (5) Thaumaturgist

  • Members
  • 488 posts
  • Location:Mielec, Poland

Because I believe a [tag] is immersion breaking, and I think a colour might not be. it's true, I'm not sure.

1. Anna died sorry mate
2. Anna is alive she is waitin for you

 

Mayby but as you can see this is one step forward to:

 

1. Anna died sorry mate
2. Anna is alive she is waitin for you  

3. Ha i don't care stupid ass

4. Ya .. umm.. i dunno .. leave me alnoe

5. Mayby .. you have some gold ?

6. I killed her let's fitght

7 who is anna ?

8 Who are you ?

9. Whanna drink something mate ?

10. uuuu.. what a big dragon you have there ...

 

etc. Sory this is good idea only if applaied to lies, but we also have provocation, intimidation, persuation, saducion, questions and other line .. if we will give color to lises, we need also for intimidation .. and what id you are lieing and intimidaiting in the same time ?

 

I'm realy not a fan of "makeing things esier" expecionaly is it not needed ... if you are playing game, and you don't know where are you lieing or intimidaiting ... you shoud think about your play-style or not drink so much ...

 

I also hate an DA2 solution or Mass Effect solution where you can

 

Be asss-hole

 

Don't care

 

Be overmoralising, dush

 

 

So personaly im not yor that type of solution.


Edited by Ulquiorra, 31 January 2013 - 09:52 AM.


#18
JFSOCC

JFSOCC

    Mentor & Student of the Obsidian Order

  • Members
  • 2253 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer

how many conversations do you think there will be where you would have all options at once.

Besides, you can limit it to only certain types of intents.

 

As for colour blindness, that's a pretty good argument (though it's catering to a minority, perhaps) But there are colours which aren't part of any known colour blindness., alternatively you can use italics, bolding, or underlining, each of which helps convey intent without resorting to meta-text.


Edited by JFSOCC, 31 January 2013 - 11:16 AM.


#19
Jarmo

Jarmo

    (9) Sorcerer

  • Members
  • 1216 posts
  • Location:Finland
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer

This sounds exactly the kind of thing where one likes one thing and the other one the other.

And where making a tag/color/tag+color option in the setup wouldn't break the resource bank.

 

For myself, I liked ME system for it's simplicity, though not the answers themselves, also because of their simplistic-city.


  • JFSOCC and OliverUv like this

#20
WotanAnubis

WotanAnubis

    (3) Conjurer

  • Members
  • 170 posts
  • Location:The Netherlands
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer

Kind of tricky. In general terms, I am favour of the ability to lie, but I don't want it to be a chain, either.

 

Like, if I tell a questgiver "I will totally go do X" without an explicit 'lying system' in place, then I can still decide to go do X or not go do X. Whether it was a lie or not is entirely in my hands.

 

But if instead I say "[Lie] I will totally go do X", I worry that the game will hold me to that. That the game itself will not allow me to change my mind and go do X after all. I would not like that at all.

 

But other than such hypotheticals I'm OK with lying.


  • Tychoxi, Jarmo, general_azure and 4 others like this





Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: conversation, morality, lying, game mechanics

0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users