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Romances in NWN 2 and RPGs in general


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#121
J.E. Sawyer

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The "faithful followers" know that I was only on the project for the last six months of development. Having an understanding of how little course correction can be done in six months tends to cause most people to not act like I personally penned the story and all the dialogues for NWN2 over the course of two years.

#122
Gorth

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No, I did not miss the point. I'm just  don't soil my pants when a designer posts some utter garbage and not afraid to speak my mind. I'm deeply sorry if that does not bode well with the 'faithful follower' community around here.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So, you are just being deliberately dumb and personal in your insults based on your lack of knowlegde about the subject you are talking about?

Sounds more like somebody who wants to disagree for the sake of disagreeing rather than discuss why he can't get enough virtual nookie.

#123
alanschu

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So, basicly you´re against "if you can´t do it well don´t do it" mentality?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


JE said he can't do it? Did he? Please do point that out to me if I missed it.
And in case he did, that does raise a few questions as well regarding competence...

(heh, siis olet suomalainen.. terve terve pääkaupungista :))

@Pidesco: No, I did not miss the point. I'm just don't soil my pants when a designer posts some utter garbage and not afraid to speak my mind. I'm deeply sorry if that does not bode well with the 'faithful follower' community around here.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



Kirottu said can't do it well.


As has already been mentioned, Josh's opinion seems to be that if they aren't going to improve on them, then maybe they shouldn't be done. The idea of a romance was cool in Baldur's Gate 2, because it was the first time I had really ever seen one in a CRPG. But since then, most romances seem to take away from the game, given how tacked on they seem to be.

#124
Pop

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I wonder if they'll go for a romance in the Alien game, if Josh Sawyer is such a :) -hating scrooge?

#125
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I wonder if they'll go for a romance in the Alien game, if Josh Sawyer is such a  :) -hating scrooge?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Aren't those all about getting off-spring? :D

Or perhaps, that wasn't what you meant :)

#126
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The "faithful followers" know that I was only on the project for the last six months of development.  Having an understanding of how little course correction can be done in six months tends to cause most people to not act like I personally penned the story and all the dialogues for NWN2 over the course of two years.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I can understand that. The only thing that irked me with the NWN2 romance was that you could only "get" the druid. I was hoping to check out the tail on Neeshka a bit closer, if you know what I mean :)

#127
alanschu

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I think that that is part of the problem. If you offer a romance, you're going to get people disappointed (or downright frothing at the mouth, depending on who you talk to) that it was only person X, but not person Y.

#128
Llyranor

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I disagree. I think that you are part of the problem.

#129
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I don't know. BG2 had 3 possible romance options with a male character, which seemed fine to me (never really dug Nalia as a character much anyhow) and the female options were sorely lacking in comparison not only in choice (a romance with Yoshimo or maybe Haer'dalis would have been nice, and maybe a romance with Keldorn could have had some Viconia-esque character consequences) but in the fact that the female option was Anomen, who was possibly the most annoying character in the game, even if you didn't like Aerie's naivete act.

KOTOR2 continued that tradition, as I generally liked both the Handmaiden and Visas, but the less said about Disciple, the better.

I'd chalk up NWN2's restrictive romance options just to a tight CNPC pool. As bland as Casavir is, he's pretty much the only viable female romance option out of any of the male characters, what with the warlock being geriatric and the ranger being a creepy **** and the dwarf being... a dwarf.

As for Elanee, who else? Qara? Neeshka? A gith? No thank you. Please, please, no.

It's my opinion that what's really required for a good romance is good writing, characters with some semblance of depth and enough gametime to flesh out the process of, uh, RPG courtship in a way that doesn't feel forced or contrite. BG2 had all those things. At least in its current incarnation NWN2 had those things, but didn't focus on the romance aspect much at all. For all we know, if an expansion is released that continues the shard-bearer's story, they might flesh out the romance a bit more, but it'll be hard.

#130
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I wonder if they'll go for a romance in the Alien game, if Josh Sawyer is such a  :) -hating scrooge?

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Yeah we can romance an Alien. :)

#131
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I wonder if they'll go for a romance in the Alien game, if Josh Sawyer is such a  :wub: -hating scrooge?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah we can romance an Alien. :wub:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'd hit it.

#132
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I'm not sure it would really work in an Alien game...

*Facehugger* (Scuttling across the floor): "Come here and give us a hug and some french kissing you big hunk of a Marine... 'till death do us part" :wub:

*Sgt. Gorth*: "Eeek!" :ph34r:

Maybe if restricted to entirely human relationships.

Edited by Gorth, 16 December 2006 - 08:46 PM.


#133
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I wonder if they'll go for a romance in the Alien game, if Josh Sawyer is such a  :wub: -hating scrooge?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't hate love in game stories; I just hate reducing love to shallow, masturbatory fantasy indulgence. Maybe that's all love is to some people, but I think that's a pretty narrow view. Ego-stroking is very popular in CRPGs, which is one reason I don't feel comfortable doing CRPG writing anymore.

I appreciate that people wanted more romance options in NWN2, but sometimes I think that people want there to be romance "victory" conditions for all companions. I think that can diminish some characters. For instance, if Shandra and Qara had their own romance plots, I think some people would still want Neeshka to be "romance-able", regardless of how Neeshka's author felt about the character's place in the story.

That bugs me. I don't like the idea that you can "win" everything or get everyone on your side. I'm also not fond of the idea that romance always has to resolve with a "fade out" to implied coitus, but that's another issue.

I'll re-state what I wrote before: I want romance to receive either less or more attention in games. Anything worth doing is worth doing well, especially when it's something with so much emotional potential. But I certainly don't want to go the route of harem anime, which is total fantasy indulgence and gross pandering.
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#134
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That bugs me. I don't like the idea that you can "win" everything or get everyone on your side. I'm also not fond of the idea that romance always has to resolve with a "fade out" to implied coitus, but that's another issue.


I agree wholeheartedly.

Sometimes a character, like say Mira, just isn't a romancable option. And I don't think that that is a bad thing.

#135
J.E. Sawyer

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I agree wholeheartedly.

Sometimes a character, like say Mira, just isn't a romancable option.  And I don't think that that is a bad thing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'll go even further and say that I think some characters can and should be "false" romance options as long as there is some sort of resolution to the plot line. That's why I really like the romance in Full Throttle: Mo and Ben can't be together, but they have a bittersweet resolution in the game's final moments.
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#136
Hydrogen

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One thing I liked about romance in BG2 is that it was new... I also liked that I could take it or leave it. What I didn't like is that there was only one option for the women, but 3 for the men.

#137
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I wonder if they'll go for a romance in the Alien game, if Josh Sawyer is such a  :wub: -hating scrooge?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't hate love in game stories; I just hate reducing love to shallow, masturbatory fantasy indulgence. Maybe that's all love is to some people, but I think that's a pretty narrow view. Ego-stroking is very popular in CRPGs, which is one reason I don't feel comfortable doing CRPG writing anymore.

I appreciate that people wanted more romance options in NWN2, but sometimes I think that people want there to be romance "victory" conditions for all companions. I think that can diminish some characters. For instance, if Shandra and Qara had their own romance plots, I think some people would still want Neeshka to be "romance-able", regardless of how Neeshka's author felt about the character's place in the story.

That bugs me. I don't like the idea that you can "win" everything or get everyone on your side. I'm also not fond of the idea that romance always has to resolve with a "fade out" to implied coitus, but that's another issue.

I'll re-state what I wrote before: I want romance to receive either less or more attention in games. Anything worth doing is worth doing well, especially when it's something with so much emotional potential. But I certainly don't want to go the route of harem anime, which is total fantasy indulgence and gross pandering.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I hope you realize I wasn't being serious :wub: and I agree with you. Romance quests have been pretty lackluster when it comes to recent RPGs. And romance would be the last thing I'd want or expect from an Alien game. It'd be a bad idea, especially with all the movie love interests dying.

But if I had to choose, I'd put more of an emphasis on romances in RPGs. I realize how often it devolves into fan service, but that aspect of a game really helps deepen it, if it's done right. The easiest and best way to give depth to a character that spends 90% of his / her time getting into fights is to have him / her show affection for another character. It doesn't always work, but when it does, it does.

*edit -

I'll go even further and say that I think some characters can and should be "false" romance options as long as there is some sort of resolution to the plot line. That's why I really like the romance in Full Throttle: Mo and Ben can't be together, but they have a bittersweet resolution in the game's final moments.

I liked the part where you hit that blind guy with a wooden board :cool:

Edited by Pop, 17 December 2006 - 01:04 AM.


#138
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Josh, you should really post something on the official NWN 2 boards regarding your stance. I think it'd do well to resolve alot of the hate you seem to be getting from romance-fans.

#139
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Josh, you should really post something on the official NWN 2 boards regarding your stance.  I think it'd do well to resolve alot of the hate you seem to be getting from romance-fans.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If they're bitching about it on the bioboards, they've made up their minds. Josh would only be stirring the pot. He might persuade a few people, but he'll piss off more. So what's the use? Just let him answer haters with his craft.

Besides, you might as well keep him here, where he gets his internets :(

#140
Azarkon

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But I certainly don't want to go the route of harem anime, which is total fantasy indulgence and gross pandering.


Err, I guess this is probably a bad time to mention that I've enjoyed certain harem anime in the past... :">

But on the topic of pandering - do you see this is an artistic obligation you have towards games not to engage in excessive indulgence and pandering? I guess some might argue that since games are entertainment, developers are entertainers and therefore should pander to the audience's desires.




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