Kaftan Barlast Posted August 7, 2007 Share Posted August 7, 2007 Ive been playing Jade Empire, and going from OE's influence system to BioWare's where companions gradually reveal more about themselves the further the story progress/you level up felt like a big relief. I was suddenly free to chose which companion I wanted with me at a time, without worrying about levelling up my influence with a character whose backstory I was curious about. Sure, if you dont have the right companion with you you might miss out on their interjections in conversations, but that doesnt feel too bad in comparison with influence where you will miss opportunities to gain influence points, and thus miss out on companions and their full story arcs. The pro's of the influence system is that it simulates social interaction and makes it possible for the designers to create points in the story where the outcome depends on how close the PC is to a certain NPC. The downside is that it effectively turns dialogue into a game where you must find out which lines to click in order to gain the most points. Which is not what dialogue choice is about at all, you're supposed to be able to roleplay. You choose your replies after how you think your character would respond(or just what youd like to say), but influence encourages you to select the replies that will give you points. Sure, you might argue that a real roleplayer does dialogue the way he wants and doesnt give a damn about the consequences. But then you will miss out on things. WHat do you think? DISCLAIMER: Do not take what I write seriously unless it is clearly and in no uncertain terms, declared by me to be meant in a serious and non-humoristic manner. If there is no clear indication, asume the post is written in jest. This notification is meant very seriously and its purpouse is to avoid misunderstandings and the consequences thereof. Furthermore; I can not be held accountable for anything I write on these forums since the idea of taking serious responsability for my unserious actions, is an oxymoron in itself. Important: as the following sentence contains many naughty words I warn you not to read it under any circumstances; botty, knickers, wee, erogenous zone, psychiatrist, clitoris, stockings, bosom, poetry reading, dentist, fellatio and the department of agriculture. "I suppose outright stupidity and complete lack of taste could also be considered points of view. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgoth Posted August 7, 2007 Share Posted August 7, 2007 (edited) I never really cared much about that Influence system. Surely here and then in Kotor2 there would pop up some "Influence gained/lost", but that never really changed my attidude towards a particular NPC, nor did I feel I came closer to one. Picked up every line just so that the old hag would always reply "When the time comes you'll learn more from me, Noob". Pft. Edited August 7, 2007 by Morgoth Rain makes everything better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kirottu Posted August 7, 2007 Share Posted August 7, 2007 The downside is that it effectively turns dialogue into a game where you must find out which lines to click in order to gain the most points. Which is not what dialogue choice is about at all, you're supposed to be able to roleplay. You choose your replies after how you think your character would respond(or just what youd like to say), but influence encourages you to select the replies that will give you points. I never chose a reply to make someone to like me. I simply kept those in my party who liked how I did things. This post is not to be enjoyed, discussed, or referenced on company time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorth Posted August 7, 2007 Share Posted August 7, 2007 (edited) Same here. Both Kotor2 and NWN2, I kept the party members around me that I liked. Once or twice did I play the games in exploration mode to satisfy my curiosity. I think it might have been better if they had left the notifications out and left it to the player to gradually discover (or not) new sides to his companions instead of the "Ping! Gorth scores/loses Influence with Xyz". If you don't know what triggers it, you might as well just play it according to your head, not your competitive instincts. Much the same way as you eroded the "Fortress" variable for your companions in PS:T Edited August 7, 2007 by Gorth “He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tale Posted August 7, 2007 Share Posted August 7, 2007 Ive been playing Jade Empire, and going from OE's influence system to BioWare's where companions gradually reveal more about themselves the further the story progress/you level up felt like a big relief. I was suddenly free to chose which companion I wanted with me at a time, without worrying about levelling up my influence with a character whose backstory I was curious about. Sure, if you dont have the right companion with you you might miss out on their interjections in conversations, but that doesnt feel too bad in comparison with influence where you will miss opportunities to gain influence points, and thus miss out on companions and their full story arcs. The pro's of the influence system is that it simulates social interaction and makes it possible for the designers to create points in the story where the outcome depends on how close the PC is to a certain NPC. The downside is that it effectively turns dialogue into a game where you must find out which lines to click in order to gain the most points. Which is not what dialogue choice is about at all, you're supposed to be able to roleplay. You choose your replies after how you think your character would respond(or just what youd like to say), but influence encourages you to select the replies that will give you points. Sure, you might argue that a real roleplayer does dialogue the way he wants and doesnt give a damn about the consequences. But then you will miss out on things. WHat do you think? I think it sounds more like you have a lack of desire to actually roleplay. Roleplay and metagaming are commonly at odds. There is a constant tendency for many players to choose metagaming for one reason or another, when a player ends up doing so, the fault for the player not choosing roleplaying should not automatically be hoisted upon the system. "Show me a man who "plays fair" and I'll show you a very talented cheater." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaftan Barlast Posted August 8, 2007 Author Share Posted August 8, 2007 I dont enjoy replaying story-intense games, so I always try to get the most out of my playthrough. And in order to get everything out of the game, I end up metagaming because of the way the influence systems works. I dont feel that compulsion with games like Jade Empire or Kotor. DISCLAIMER: Do not take what I write seriously unless it is clearly and in no uncertain terms, declared by me to be meant in a serious and non-humoristic manner. If there is no clear indication, asume the post is written in jest. This notification is meant very seriously and its purpouse is to avoid misunderstandings and the consequences thereof. Furthermore; I can not be held accountable for anything I write on these forums since the idea of taking serious responsability for my unserious actions, is an oxymoron in itself. Important: as the following sentence contains many naughty words I warn you not to read it under any circumstances; botty, knickers, wee, erogenous zone, psychiatrist, clitoris, stockings, bosom, poetry reading, dentist, fellatio and the department of agriculture. "I suppose outright stupidity and complete lack of taste could also be considered points of view. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tale Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 (edited) I dont enjoy replaying story-intense games, so I always try to get the most out of my playthrough. And in order to get everything out of the game, I end up metagaming because of the way the influence systems works. I dont feel that compulsion with games like Jade Empire or Kotor. So, this basically goes to a larger issue not exclusive to the influence companion system. Limited access content, content that has qualifiers, often used to encourage multiple replays or display multiple choices vs open access content, which is accessible to everyone regardless of any other actions. I don't think giving roleplaying options that can be metagamed through is counterproductive to roleplaying. You can't pigeonhole someone into roleplaying. You don't encourage roleplaying by eliminating cause and effect, by turning all choices into the same one with different letters. This same thing also applies to Jade Empire and KOTOR as well as NWN2. In Kotor, for example, you are encouraged to metagame character responses for light/dark side mastery buffs. Jade Empire encourages metagaming responses for a similar purpose of obtaining new Open Palm/Closed Fist moves. Edited August 8, 2007 by Tale "Show me a man who "plays fair" and I'll show you a very talented cheater." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@\NightandtheShape/@ Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 So your complaint is basically that you can't Metagame very well in OE's RPG's... I'd say that's more your problem than the game being fundementally flawed, perhaps it should be considered options, like a tick box that basically puts party influence on or off, when it's off it's just always considered that the NPC will progress his story, while if on it uses the influence system. Frankly I wouldn't want to loose the influence system to increase the metagamers enjoyment of a game. "I'm a programmer at a games company... REET GOOD!" - Me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spider Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 Although it isn't metagaming if you're playing a character who is a manipulative bastard desperately trying to get everyone to like him/her. Thus planning your actions based on your companions (expected) reactions would be perfectly reasonable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sand Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 I like the influence system mainly because if the NPCs like or dislike of you can have an impact on the game, such as Neverwinter Nights 2 and if Obsidian continues to improve this system it can greatly improve CRPG story telling that even in story intensive CRPGs of theirs may eventually have radical differences in how other characters react to your character depending how well your character is liked or disliked. Murphy's Law of Computer Gaming: The listed minimum specifications written on the box by the publisher are not the minimum specifications of the game set by the developer. @\NightandtheShape/@ - "Because you're a bizzare strange deranged human?" Walsingham- "Sand - always rushing around, stirring up apathy." Joseph Bulock - "Another headache, courtesy of Sand" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaftan Barlast Posted August 8, 2007 Author Share Posted August 8, 2007 So your complaint is basically that you can't Metagame very well in OE's RPG's... No, thats not what Im saying at all. What Im saying is that the influence system inadvertently encourages players to metagame. Just like the example Tale brough up where you're encouraged to metagame in Kotor and JE in order to get enough 'good' or 'evil' points to get a bonus. IMO, a system that encourages metagaming is a faulty system. Especially in a game where you are supposed to be immersed into the story/setting, because metagaming draws you out into reality where it's Kaftan playing a computer game, not Bertil the Barbarian saving a dragon in distress. DISCLAIMER: Do not take what I write seriously unless it is clearly and in no uncertain terms, declared by me to be meant in a serious and non-humoristic manner. If there is no clear indication, asume the post is written in jest. This notification is meant very seriously and its purpouse is to avoid misunderstandings and the consequences thereof. Furthermore; I can not be held accountable for anything I write on these forums since the idea of taking serious responsability for my unserious actions, is an oxymoron in itself. Important: as the following sentence contains many naughty words I warn you not to read it under any circumstances; botty, knickers, wee, erogenous zone, psychiatrist, clitoris, stockings, bosom, poetry reading, dentist, fellatio and the department of agriculture. "I suppose outright stupidity and complete lack of taste could also be considered points of view. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tale Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 So your complaint is basically that you can't Metagame very well in OE's RPG's... No, thats not what Im saying at all. What Im saying is that the influence system inadvertently encourages players to metagame. Just like the example Tale brough up where you're encouraged to metagame in Kotor and JE in order to get enough 'good' or 'evil' points to get a bonus. IMO, a system that encourages metagaming is a faulty system. Especially in a game where you are supposed to be immersed into the story/setting, because metagaming draws you out into reality where it's Kaftan playing a computer game, not Bertil the Barbarian saving a dragon in distress. However, all systems encourage metagaming that offer multiple choices. So, as I said before you can not loft the fault upon the system. It's a feature inherent in choice. "Show me a man who "plays fair" and I'll show you a very talented cheater." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@\NightandtheShape/@ Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 So your complaint is basically that you can't Metagame very well in OE's RPG's... No, thats not what Im saying at all. What Im saying is that the influence system inadvertently encourages players to metagame. Just like the example Tale brough up where you're encouraged to metagame in Kotor and JE in order to get enough 'good' or 'evil' points to get a bonus. IMO, a system that encourages metagaming is a faulty system. Especially in a game where you are supposed to be immersed into the story/setting, because metagaming draws you out into reality where it's Kaftan playing a computer game, not Bertil the Barbarian saving a dragon in distress. Think of it like this, I would assume, based upon my personal experience, more gamers metagame CRPG's than RP in CRPG's. You're stuck wanting to Meta-game because you "Don't want to miss something", and being as the average gamer is already meta-gaming anyways the influence system give the games dialogue more depth so to speak. I don't see it as broken. "I'm a programmer at a games company... REET GOOD!" - Me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cantousent Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 I don't see the influence system as faulty in and of itself. I think there were plenty of times when I was disappointed with the influence system in NWN2. Like some of the other inmates, however, I'm inclined to think that the influence system serves to provide consequences to our choices, which is what I personally want in a role-playing game. Fionavar's Holliday Wishes to all members of our online community: Happy Holidays Join the revelry at the Obsidian Plays channel:Obsidian Plays Remembering tarna, Phosphor, Metadigital, and Visceris. Drink mead heartily in the halls of Valhalla, my friends! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowtrain Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 I like the way Oblivion does it personally. Dialogues about mud crabs make any game better. Notice how I can belittle your beliefs without calling you names. It's a useful skill to have particularly where you aren't allowed to call people names. It's a mistake to get too drawn in/worked up. I mean it's not life or death, it's just two guys posting their thoughts on a message board. If it were personal or face to face all the usual restraints would be in place, and we would never have reached this place in the first place. Try to remember that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musopticon? Posted August 9, 2007 Share Posted August 9, 2007 "Go away, mortal!" "Goodbye" "Any news from the other provinces" "See you" kirottu said: I was raised by polar bears. I had to fight against blood thirsty wolves and rabid penguins to get my food. Those who were too weak to survive were sent to Sweden. It has made me the man I am today. A man who craves furry hentai. So let us go and embrace the rustling smells of unseen worlds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoma Posted August 9, 2007 Share Posted August 9, 2007 If this kind of conversation gets the world RPG gamers' approval, I can see Chris Avellone will be out of job in the next few years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musopticon? Posted August 9, 2007 Share Posted August 9, 2007 I dunno, Shivering Isles was pretty impressive at parts. I'm actually pretty hopeful for Fallout 3's writing. And if it does work as intended, it'll pave way for other games with actual dialogue, because, no matter what happens, F3 will sell like hotcakes on acid. kirottu said: I was raised by polar bears. I had to fight against blood thirsty wolves and rabid penguins to get my food. Those who were too weak to survive were sent to Sweden. It has made me the man I am today. A man who craves furry hentai. So let us go and embrace the rustling smells of unseen worlds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azarkon Posted August 9, 2007 Share Posted August 9, 2007 Kaftan, I'm curious, but it seems that your argument of "not wanting to miss anything" logically rules out choice-and-consequence, as well, or more broadly any sort of branching in games. Now, personally, there are very good games out there (JRPGs, for instance) that don't branch, but then they don't exaclty allow for a great deal of roleplaying (or, to avoid that word, "choosing") either. As a result, I'm almost convinced that your preference simply precludes interest in branching games, which is a perfectly reasonable stance, but one that would make it unnecessary to argue any further. Is this correct? I'd like to know because it'd help me decide whether to respond in depth to your criticism or to simply "agree to disagree," if ya get what I mean. There are doors Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaftan Barlast Posted August 9, 2007 Author Share Posted August 9, 2007 No, Im not saying I dont like branching in games. I think its lots of fun when games allow you to take multiple paths, as long as this doesnt mean that one path contains significantly less game content than the other. If you do that, then you're really just punishing the player for making choices. The question that I was asking in this thread is wether the Influence system works, or if the end result is just encouraging metagaming. DISCLAIMER: Do not take what I write seriously unless it is clearly and in no uncertain terms, declared by me to be meant in a serious and non-humoristic manner. If there is no clear indication, asume the post is written in jest. This notification is meant very seriously and its purpouse is to avoid misunderstandings and the consequences thereof. Furthermore; I can not be held accountable for anything I write on these forums since the idea of taking serious responsability for my unserious actions, is an oxymoron in itself. Important: as the following sentence contains many naughty words I warn you not to read it under any circumstances; botty, knickers, wee, erogenous zone, psychiatrist, clitoris, stockings, bosom, poetry reading, dentist, fellatio and the department of agriculture. "I suppose outright stupidity and complete lack of taste could also be considered points of view. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gandalfsbane Posted June 18, 2010 Share Posted June 18, 2010 No, Im not saying I dont like branching in games. I think its lots of fun when games allow you to take multiple paths, as long as this doesnt mean that one path contains significantly less game content than the other. If you do that, then you're really just punishing the player for making choices. The question that I was asking in this thread is wether the Influence system works, or if the end result is just encouraging metagaming. Encouraging metagaming isn't necessarily a failure. A roleplayer will simply play through it twice. Once metagaming to see all the content (the first time for me), once roleplaying to really get into character (the second time around so I know I'm not missing anything critical or truly amazing). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorth Posted June 18, 2010 Share Posted June 18, 2010 A well thought out post. I wonder if we are going to wait additional 3 years for Kaftans reply to this? “He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deraldin Posted June 18, 2010 Share Posted June 18, 2010 A well thought out post. I wonder if we are going to wait additional 3 years for Kaftans reply to this? How do people even find these threads to bring them back?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humodour Posted June 18, 2010 Share Posted June 18, 2010 (edited) Ive been playing Jade Empire, and going from OE's influence system to BioWare's where companions gradually reveal more about themselves the further the story progress/you level up felt like a big relief. I was suddenly free to chose which companion I wanted with me at a time, without worrying about levelling up my influence with a character whose backstory I was curious about. Sure, if you dont have the right companion with you you might miss out on their interjections in conversations, but that doesnt feel too bad in comparison with influence where you will miss opportunities to gain influence points, and thus miss out on companions and their full story arcs. The pro's of the influence system is that it simulates social interaction and makes it possible for the designers to create points in the story where the outcome depends on how close the PC is to a certain NPC. The downside is that it effectively turns dialogue into a game where you must find out which lines to click in order to gain the most points. Which is not what dialogue choice is about at all, you're supposed to be able to roleplay. You choose your replies after how you think your character would respond(or just what youd like to say), but influence encourages you to select the replies that will give you points. Sure, you might argue that a real roleplayer does dialogue the way he wants and doesnt give a damn about the consequences. But then you will miss out on things. WHat do you think? I completely agree with you. I really really hate Obsidian's influence system (especially when it's like "you just gained +1 influence with Kreia!" or whatever). What's worse is watching the Obsidian devs try to extol the virtues of this system, as if they're completely blind to how bad it is. Wow, this post was more harsh than I intended. Edited June 18, 2010 by Krezack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrath of Dagon Posted June 18, 2010 Share Posted June 18, 2010 Yes, KOTOR 2 influence system sucked, because it made you miss major parts of the story unless you gained enough influence with certain characters. For example everything on Nar Shadaa didn't make much sense unless you gained enough influence with GOTO. Then DAO ripped off the same system, which means I missed a bunch of content because I don't enjoy sucking up to NPC's in a game that already has a piss poor amount of content. "Moral indignation is a standard strategy for endowing the idiot with dignity." Marshall McLuhan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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