Ranger / Rogue abilities question

[Lorfean]

Hi, I'm playing a Scout in Deadfire (Ranger / Rogue, no subclasses) and I'm really liking it but since it's my first playthrough I haven't planned out my abilities, and I am already looking into things I would do different if I'd start over (which is likely, considering some of the bugs).

The chr concept is a melee / ranged hybrid, able to deliver both strong ranged sneak attacks and strong melee backstabs, with my animal companion providing solid damage through Predatory Sense. I'm thinking of something along these lines:

 

1. Crippling Strike + Marked Prey
2. Escape
3. Resilient Companion
4. Dirty Fighting + Marksman
5. Backstab
6. Takedown?
7. Arterial Strike + Predator's Sense
8. Marked for the Hunt
9. Vicious Companion
10. Shadowing Beyond + Takedown Combo?
11. ?
12. ?
13. Driving Flight + Uncanny Luck
14. Withering Strike
15. ?
16. Improved Critical + Toxic Strike?
17. Survival of the Fittest
18. ?
19. Deathblows + Superior Camouflage?
20. ?

So, my questions:

- With Crippling Strike -> Arterial Strike providing sneak attacks and synergy with Predatory Sense, is it worth it to also take Wounding Shot -> Accurate Wounding Shot? (my reasoning would be that it is, because that way I have a DoT on each of my classes so I can divide resources in combat)

- As an interrupt, is Takedown -> Takedown Combo worth it, or is Strike the Bell -> Pierce the Bell better?

- Is Withering Strike > Toxic Strike a contender, as it provides another damage type and is also a DoT?

- Merciless Companion or Vicious Companion (or both?).

Edited May 17, 2018 by Lorfean

[Nemesis7884]

The rogue blinding strike upgrade seems neat because it does dot and allows for sneak attack so both pet upgrades should work? +80% dam

[Takkik]

Shadowing beyond feel very overpriced, and take note right now dot break invisibility. Withering strike cost a lot too, not sure it worth it. Perhaps finishing blow instead for enemies with lot of HP?

 

I would take evasive roll for the quick inspiration and you can upgrade it for extra dmg.

[Lorfean]

Thanks for the answers. Good point re. Blinding Strike -> Gouging Strike. I had missed that one and its definitely a contender.

 

But DoTs break Invisibility? As in, I can't fire a ranged Arterial Strike and then Shadowing Beyond to the target for a Backstab because the DoT ticks will break invis? Is this a known bug, or?

 

I looked at Evasive Roll but the damage upgrade attacks a random target, which doesn't seem ideal.

 

Finishing Blow -> Devastating Blow seems cool and its nice to have a finisher.

[Ganrich]

Yes, an arterial strike DoT will break stealth. I dont think it is a bug. I think it is intended to force you to pick between DoT damage vs burst damage. I could be wrong, but looking at rogue it seems like they are trying to allow for two very distinct play styles.

 

Not necessarily pertinent to this thread, but the Chanter Debuff phrases also break stealth. I expected Soft Winds to break stealth, but so do a few of the others that do not do damage. So, if you're building a stealth focused rogue/chanter MC make sure you grab buffs only or be prepared to toggle Chants a lot.

[Takkik]

Yes, an arterial strike DoT will break stealth. I dont think it is a bug. I think it is intended to force you to pick between DoT damage vs burst damage. I could be wrong, but looking at rogue it seems like they are trying to allow for two very distinct play styles.

 

if it's not a bug it's really weird. That make lot of skills/upgrades incompatibles since lot of rogues abilities are about invisibility & DOT. I hate how most dev/games screw the rogue. You're already 'taxed' with skills, because for a traditionnal rogues you need stealth, sleight hands, mechanics, and alchemy (poisons) & explosives fit the theme too. They could have keep sleight of H and Stealth in one skill, same for mechanic/explosives. DOS 2 done the exact same thing, forcing the rogue to take multiple skills.

 

You're not forced to upgrade evasive roll, always good alone, but upgraded random dps is always good just for 1 pt.

[Nemesis7884]

i am not sure if i like marked for the hunt much to be honest....because when fighting a lot of enemies the mark can appear anywhere,  but i usually want to exactly select which target to attack and which target the pet attacks... the pet might also have to run around a lot...so i am not sure its worth it

 

Also remember that for aeterial strike the target has to move for the dot - but if your pet engages the target it wont move a lot...

 

The eye gouge also says the dot lasts until combat ends...that seems pretty great to be honest, no need to reapply

Edited May 17, 2018 by Nemesis7884

[Ganrich]

Every ability with a dot is an upgrade from a normal debuff ability. The only exception I can think of is Ring the Bell with one handed weapons. However, most backstab builds use 2 handed weapons because backstab only works on the first strike... so it is only relevant if you aren't using two handers and are doing a One handed Weapon build. Dual Wielding doesnt get the offhand attack to backstab so usong two weapons and backstab isn't the best idea. Ranged weapons give bonus Pen and two handers add a stagger affliction with their upgrades. IIRC.

 

Arterial Strike has an alternate upgrade in debilitating strike. This adds a secondary affliction to crippling striker's hobble, which is distracted.

 

Blinding Strike has confounding blind which doesnt DoT, but adds a stacking deflection debuff to the target for each time they are hit while the blind is going on. This is very common in the rogue's tree.

 

Honestly, for a backstab build id prefer confounding blind anyway. Whittle their deflection before stealthing and popping them with Killing blow. No armor means more damage.

 

Then there is smoke grenade vs pernicious cloud. One is sickens (grenade) and the other DoT (pernicious).

 

The only thing I'm not sure about is Deep Wounds, but it likely breaks stealth too.

 

The stealth rogue can work with every ability, but not every ability upgrade. You can be an upfront mDPS with dots, or a backstab build with more debuffs and burst damage. Is the trade off worth it? I dont know. I think both builds are viable though.

 

Dot build is nasty though. My Rogue/Troubadour just rips through baddies on Veteran. He is like Drizzt in BG1 with the Gnolls. Of course it might differ on PotD, but I dont think the difference between these two difficulties is that great at the moment.

[Nemesis7884]

Every ability with a dot is an upgrade from a normal debuff ability. The only exception I can think of is Ring the Bell with one handed weapons. However, most backstab builds use 2 handed weapons because backstab only works on the first strike... so it is only relevant if you aren't using two handers and are doing a One handed Weapon build. Dual Wielding doesnt get the offhand attack to backstab so usong two weapons and backstab isn't the best idea. Ranged weapons give bonus Pen and two handers add a stagger affliction with their upgrades. IIRC.

 

Arterial Strike has an alternate upgrade in debilitating strike. This adds a secondary affliction to crippling striker's hobble, which is distracted.

 

Blinding Strike has confounding blind which doesnt DoT, but adds a stacking deflection debuff to the target for each time they are hit while the blind is going on. This is very common in the rogue's tree.

 

Honestly, for a backstab build id prefer confounding blind anyway. Whittle their deflection before stealthing and popping them with Killing blow. No armor means more damage.

 

Then there is smoke grenade vs pernicious cloud. One is sickens (grenade) and the other DoT (pernicious).

 

The only thing I'm not sure about is Deep Wounds, but it likely breaks stealth too.

 

The stealth rogue can work with every ability, but not every ability upgrade. You can be an upfront mDPS with dots, or a backstab build with more debuffs and burst damage. Is the trade off worth it? I dont know. I think both builds are viable though.

 

Dot build is nasty though. My Rogue/Troubadour just rips through baddies on Veteran. He is like Drizzt in BG1 with the Gnolls. Of course it might differ on PotD, but I dont think the difference between these two difficulties is that great at the moment.

 

 

the question is just when you're building around back stabbing predominantly and not around utilizing your pet - why do you want to be a ranger in the first place and not just rather go rogue, or rogue wizard or something

[Ganrich]

That's a good question. I personally just see the Ranger as a pet class at this point. It sucks, and I'm not defending it. I'm just of the mind that if I was building a ranged character, and didn't want the pet, I'd build it with the Rogue, Paladin, Fighter, etc.

 

The one ability that I love on the Ranger is Evasive Shot. Talk about a fun ability to use.

 

If I were going to build a Ranger/Rogue. I'd build a Ghostheart/Rogue or a Ghostheart/Trickster. Break the pet out when you need to, use Rogue dots, not use stealth heavily, evasion from rogue for a 1 guile getaway, and build toward evasive shot. I dont dig pet classes though... So the class is meh to me. I dont have the Ranger tree in front of me to see what else id pick up. I'll be on my pc in a minute and update if anything strikes me.

[Ganrich]

Also, I will tell you that rogue/wizard is fun. I have Aloth specced that way for deep pockets, and 5 grimoires. Its a fun combo.

[Crucis]

 

Yes, an arterial strike DoT will break stealth. I dont think it is a bug. I think it is intended to force you to pick between DoT damage vs burst damage. I could be wrong, but looking at rogue it seems like they are trying to allow for two very distinct play styles.

 

if it's not a bug it's really weird. That make lot of skills/upgrades incompatibles since lot of rogues abilities are about invisibility & DOT. I hate how most dev/games screw the rogue. You're already 'taxed' with skills, because for a traditionnal rogues you need stealth, sleight hands, mechanics, and alchemy (poisons) & explosives fit the theme too. They could have keep sleight of H and Stealth in one skill, same for mechanic/explosives. DOS 2 done the exact same thing, forcing the rogue to take multiple skills.

 

You're not forced to upgrade evasive roll, always good alone, but upgraded random dps is always good just for 1 pt.

 

 

I actually think that splitting the skills out the way they've done is a good thing.  Merging them lets players build rogues that will invariably end up being the same all the time, skill wise.  By splitting up these rogue-ish skills, it forces you to decide what sort of rogue you want to be.  Are you more into stealth and traps?  Or are you more into poisons and explosives?  Or some combination thereof?    If the skills were merged into just a couple, every rogue could be an expert in every rogue "discipline".  And that doesn't really seem like a good thing to me, from a game design perspective.

[Lokithecat]

For interrupts, I like the Boar Party Pet.  Makes everyones melee attacks interrupt, and slashing bonus.

[Lorfean]

Yes, an arterial strike DoT will break stealth. I dont think it is a bug. I think it is intended to force you to pick between DoT damage vs burst damage. I could be wrong, but looking at rogue it seems like they are trying to allow for two very distinct play styles.

That actually makes sense and, thinking about it, I quite like that idea design-wise too. Thanks.

 

i am not sure if i like marked for the hunt much to be honest....because when fighting a lot of enemies the mark can appear anywhere,  but i usually want to exactly select which target to attack and which target the pet attacks... the pet might also have to run around a lot...so i am not sure its worth it

 

Also remember that for aeterial strike the target has to move for the dot - but if your pet engages the target it wont move a lot...

 

The eye gouge also says the dot lasts until combat ends...that seems pretty great to be honest, no need to reapply

Marked for the Hunt is one of those abilities I just like the "feel" of. I agree the random factor isn't great, but the concept is cool to me.

 

Great point re. Arterial Strike, and something I missed. Thank you. That devalues the skill quite a bit.

 

I noticed that to re. Gouging Strike. Very cool. This means Blinding Strike will replace Crippling Strike for me.

 

the question is just when you're building around back stabbing predominantly and not around utilizing your pet - why do you want to be a ranger in the first place and not just rather go rogue, or rogue wizard or something

The idea was never to build around backstabbing, but to have it as a viable option in addition to sneak attacks. Knowing what I know now, it's clear to me that it would be much better to build around sneak attacks and DoTs, also because I want the pet involved, and they can be useful in setting up sneak attacks (Flanking, Takedown) and Predatory Sense gives it an awesome synergy with DoTs.

 

Thanks again for the discussion guys -- very helpful stuff!

Edited May 17, 2018 by Lorfean

[Teacher]

I've finished a playthrough with rogue/ranger today and you should know that withering strike is not worth it for the cost.

 

And you should also know that Driving Flight ranger skill is the main appeal of going ranger with rogue in my opinion, so you can sneak attack like this (one bullet) or this (one arrow) with the right weapons (Eccea's and Frostseeker). Hit to crit abilities of rogue work very well with ranged rangers.

 

Since my ranger was a ghost heart, I didn't use the animal companion as much but when I did, it worked better as a road block than significant dps. Didn't upgrade it much though since you need most of the skill points you get with rogue/ranger for yourself.

[dunehunter]

There's also one issue with shadowing beyond. Once u break Invisibility, the +50 deflection bonus is also lost. So usually we can get around 4-5 second high deflection bonus with 1 cost. But with 3 cost, it only gives u one backstab, and totally lose the deflection bonus.

[Lorfean]

Thanks Teacher, I'll take Withering Strike out of the build then and replace it with Finishing Blow -> Devastating Blow. And yeah, I plan to take Driving Flight as soon as it becomes available at lvl 13.

 

Thanks Dunehunter, Shadowing Beyond (and focusing on backstabs) was already out after the things I learned earlier in this thread.

[Lampros]

Shadowing beyond feel very overpriced, and take note right now dot break invisibility. Withering strike cost a lot too, not sure it worth it. Perhaps finishing blow instead for enemies with lot of HP?

 

I would take evasive roll for the quick inspiration and you can upgrade it for extra dmg.

 

It seems like most builds dismiss Withering Strike because of the cost. So is it strictly just the cost? Or is the ability not really all that either?

[Prince of Lies]

 

Shadowing beyond feel very overpriced, and take note right now dot break invisibility. Withering strike cost a lot too, not sure it worth it. Perhaps finishing blow instead for enemies with lot of HP?

 

I would take evasive roll for the quick inspiration and you can upgrade it for extra dmg.

 

It seems like most builds dismiss Withering Strike because of the cost. So is it strictly just the cost? Or is the ability not really all that either?

 

 

Yeah, It's the cost. Makes it not worth it until you get access to more guile late game or have a way to apply Brilliant to regen guile. 

[Lampros]

 

 

Shadowing beyond feel very overpriced, and take note right now dot break invisibility. Withering strike cost a lot too, not sure it worth it. Perhaps finishing blow instead for enemies with lot of HP?

 

I would take evasive roll for the quick inspiration and you can upgrade it for extra dmg.

 

It seems like most builds dismiss Withering Strike because of the cost. So is it strictly just the cost? Or is the ability not really all that either?

 

 

Yeah, It's the cost. Makes it not worth it until you get access to more guile late game or have a way to apply Brilliant to regen guile. 

 

 

Thanks. It might be useful then for a character wearing the Devil of Caroc armor.

[Prince of Lies]

Thanks. It might be useful then for a character wearing the Devil of Caroc armor.

 

Yeah.

 

Base abilities, Blinding Strike > Withering Strike. (Blind [-5 Per, Flanked, +50 Recovery Time and -10 Acc] vs Weakened [-5 Con, -50% Incoming Healing Done])

 

If your going for damage, Gouging Strike > Toxic Strike. (3 Raw Dmg/3s for Indefinitely vs 2 Corrode Dmg/3s for 15 secs)

 

If your going for debuff, Confounding Blind < Perishing Strike. (Blind [-5 Per, Flanked, +50 Recovery Time and -10 Acc] + Stacking Deflection Debuff for 15s vs Weakened [-5 Con, -50% Incoming Healing Done] for 15s, then Enfeebled[-5 Con, No Incoming Healing Done, and Incoming Hostile Effects duration increased by 50%] for another 15s.)

 

Basically Perishing Strike holds a debuff longer (30s) than Confounding Blind (15s) which is useful in stacking multiple afflictions for deathblows.

[Haplok]

Actually at high levels Toxic Strike is very much worth it if you go for DoTs and have high Int.

It is NOT 2 damage/3 seconds. Each following tick does progressively more damage and with decent duration (high Int), it does sick damage after a few ticks.

It really cannot be compared with Gouging Strike, they are not on the same level at all (although Gouging Strike has the advantage of not expiring).

 

Particularly nice if you can apply it in an aoe, with some mortars, blights, rod blast, WotEP, Wahai Poraga or Spirit Lance.

Edited October 12, 2018 by Haplok

[Boeroer]

Toxic Strike builds up damage with every tick. And steeply so!

 

If you have high INT it's a death sentence for most foes (a faster death sentence than Gouging Strike). Also if you want to stack DoTs you might need it since DoTs from the same rogue ability don't stack but stuff like Gouging + Toxic + Ring the Bell do stack.

 

Withering Strike is too expensive, Toxic Strike is not. Especially not if you can apply it in an AoE. Then it's a great damage tool.

[Lampros]

Toxic Strike builds up damage with every tick. And steeply so!

 

If you have high INT it's a death sentence for most foes (a faster death sentence than Gouging Strike). Also if you want to stack DoTs you might need it since DoTs from the same rogue ability don't stack but stuff like Gouging + Toxic + Ring the Bell do stack.

 

Withering Strike is too expensive, Toxic Strike is not. Especially not if you can apply it in an AoE. Then it's a great damage tool.

 

So you go up to Toxic or not at all?

 

Since I run at least two Rogue multi-classes, I should perhaps divide up Gouging Strike, Arterial Strike, and Toxic Strike then. I don't think I can afford all 3 on all Rogue multi-class characters, since that's a lot of investment, and skill slots are limited.

[Prince of Lies]

Ack. I haven't used Toxic Strike since launch. Tried it today, and yeah, it's pretty beefy. Still like the blind part of Gouging Strike better than the weakened part of Toxic Strike, it's also less expensive.

 

Man, no one likes Perishing Strike