Swift Flurry rework discussion

[Sotnik]

Hi!

 

The Swift Flurry monk ability is broken when used with multiple projectile weapons and rods. On the other hand, it should not be inferior to Lightning Strikes. Let's figure out how that can be fixed.

 

My suggestions is limiting it to 1 proc per 1 attack: (i) the first roll plus additional projectiles/additional targets in AoE/targets affected by bouncing etc trigger maximum 1 Swift Flurry ("you just need all instances of damage to be identifiable as the same attack in the code"); (ii) Crits generated by Swift Flurry shouldn't be able to proc Swift Flurry. Boeroer suggested a softer nerf - without the item (i). Along with that, an increase in its proc chance to 50% is required (otherwise it will be weaker than Lightning Strikes in melee). With multiple projectile weapons it should trigger the full round - it currently works inconsistently with various weapons. If you know specific cases for sure, please advise.

 

What are your ideas?

 

Why Lightning Strikes are currently better without using the exploits.

Damage bonus is multiplicative. If you score a crit or use an attack ability (consider adding Stealth bonus of Assassins for example), all the additional damage is multiplied. With Swift Flurry you only get a standard attack that can miss/graze/hit even if the main attack was a crit. Moreover, you will lose more damage due to overkill. Finally, you cannot use Fists as a one weapon style and Monks don't get many active and passive accuracy bonuses: only Dance of Death (inconsistent) and Razor's Edge (8th Power Level, inconsistent), maximum 5% hit-crit conversion.

Lightning Strikes are also stacking better with the Razor's Edge. On the other hand, Swift Flurry is multiplicative with other lash bonuses while Lightning Strikes are not.

 

Posts on specific exploits of Swift Flurry:

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/98184-my-rangermonk-build-guess-it-can-qualify-as-a-power-build/?hl=%2Bswift+%2Bflurry

https://steamcommunity.com/app/560130/discussions/0/2828702373007353692/

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/99014-3-shots-with-2-guns-swift-flurry-powder-burns-multiple-times/?hl=%2Bswift+%2Bflurry+%2Brod

Upd: minor blights are broken wiht SF too.

Edited May 16, 2018 by Sotnik

[Falk Schütze]

Move it to Power level 8 or 9 so only a single class monk can get it. Then only allow it once per attack E.g. If through any means a weapon hits more than once it only affects the first Hit.

[Boeroer]

It would be totally ok if it didn't chain-proc.

 

In other words: crits generated by Swift Flurry shouldn't be able to proc Swift Flurry.

 

Same as a kill did via Cleaving Stance swipe shouldn't proc another Cleaving Stance swipe.

 

Problem solved...

Edited May 14, 2018 by Boeroer

[Climhazzard]

I'm honestly surprised they never did anything about swift flurry being able to proc off itself.  I know they're aware that it does because I got a dev comment on this screenshot back when I made a post about it in beta.  I think the only result here was a nerf to the intuitive inspiration.

 

Edited May 14, 2018 by Climhazzard

[dunehunter]

I'm honestly surprised they never did anything about swift flurry being able to proc off itself. I know they're aware that it does because I got a dev comment on this screenshot back when I made a post about it in beta.

 

Maybe because Monk is their favorite class so they don’t wanna nerf it....

[Sotnik]

It would be totally ok if it didn't chain-proc.

 

In other words: crits generated by Swift Flurry shouldn't be able to proc Swift Flurry.

 

Same as a kill did via Cleaving Stance swipe shouldn't proc another Cleaving Stance swipe.

 

Problem solved...

Then, if I use a rod and it crits multiple times, there will be multiple Swift Flurry procs. Same with multiple projectile weapons and some skills (arrow bouncing of Ranger?) that allow more weapon-based attacks. Do you think it is ok for the balance? My proposal to limit Swift Flurry by 1 use per 0,3 seconds had the same purpose as your idea, but I was thinking about nerfing it more in respect of rods and multiple projectile weapons in exchange for increased proc chance to keep Swift Flurry viable for melee.

 

Does Cleaving Stance proc that way now?

Edited May 14, 2018 by Sotnik

[AndreaColombo]

I agree with Boeroer. The ability shouldn't proc itself.

 

Other than that, happy to leave as is. I see nothing wrong with proccing multiple times with the rod's ability.

[Irori]

+1 to making it not proc off itself.  No need for a further nerf, as i think its the bread and butter of a monk.  Other classes have a lot more going for them (far stronger passives, utility to the party, stances, etc).

 

Would also like to see more passives which buff fists to compensate for the lack of weapon enchants, similar to druid shapeshift buffs.

[Sotnik]

Figured out how to add new vote options in the poll and added Boeroer's suggestion.

[MadDemiurg]

It should only proc once per attack. You don't need a timer for that, you just need all instances of damage to be identifiable as the same attack in the code and it should only proc on the 1st one.

 

33% chance to multiplicatively double the damage on crit is more than enough for it to be decent on high crit builds. Maybe it could use a slight buff in this case, like 40%, but no more than that. Chain procing, procing on aoes or multiple projectiles reminds me of carnage bugs with some scrolls PoE1. 

 

I wouldn't even call it a nerf, it's a bugfix, it obviously was never intended to work like that.

Edited May 14, 2018 by MadDemiurg

[Sotnik]

It should only proc once per attack. You don't need a timer for that, you just need all instances of damage to be identifiable as the same attack in the code and it should only proc on the 1st one.

 

33% chance to multiplicatively double the damage on crit is more than enough for it to be decent on high crit builds. Maybe it could use a slight buff in this case, like 40%, but no more than that. Chain procing, procing on aoes or multiple projectiles reminds me of carnage bugs with some scrolls PoE1. 

 

I wouldn't even call it a nerf, it's a bugfix, it obviously was never intended to work like that.

Thank you, I was not sure what would be the best wording for that. I corrected the original post.

 

Why Lightning Strikes are currently better without using the exploits.

Damage bonus is multiplicative. If you score a crit or use an attack ability (consider adding backstab bonus for example), all the additional damage is multiplied. With Swift Flurry you only get a standard attack that can miss/graze/hit even if the main attack was a crit. Moreover, you will lose more damage due to overkill.

That's why I think Swift Flurry<>Lightning Strikes will need more balancing as soon as the bug is fixed. Don't you agree?

Edited May 14, 2018 by Sotnik

[MadDemiurg]

Lightning strikes is not exactly multiplicative, it's additive with other lash bonuses. With maxed out turning wheel for +50% lash it's only +20% of end damage. Swift strike could miss, true, and it's worse with certain combos that only work on the first hit e.g. backstab, but it would be a decent alternative at 40% for high crit builds.

[cactot]

Move it to Power level 8 or 9 so only a single class monk can get it. Then only allow it once per attack E.g. If through any means a weapon hits more than once it only affects the first Hit.

This would make it completely worthless for anyone who plays naturally and doesn't try to abuse the game mechanics.

 

33% chance on a crit is WAY worse than 30% all the time.

 

You can (and do, particularly on POTD) still miss the second attack. Plus unless you optimize for accuracy *and* dual class berserker or fighter your crit chance isn't going to be that high.

 

Let's pretend you can manage to maintain a 33% crit chance (fighter with disciplined strikes and an accuracy 20 points higher than their deflection), that would give you an average damage bonus of ~11%...

 

If you want to fix it remove the interaction with rods, fixing it like you suggest might as well just be removing it. There would never be any occasion to take it over lightning strikes.

Edited May 14, 2018 by cactot