[MECHANICS] Attack Speed, Recovery Time, Reload Time

[Sotnik]

 

Does this mean that light armor goes from a .83 coefficient to a 1.03 with both armored grace and cutthroat cosmo???

It gets capped at 1.00)

 

Armor penalty reduction effects can only reduce the penalty up to 0.

 

Sorry for an off-top, but as you mentioned armor... if I lack armor penetration and get -25% dmg, is it addtitive with damage bonuses such as an active ability bonus, for example +25% damage + -25% damage = basic damage or 1,25*0,75=0,93?

Edited June 30, 2018 by Sotnik

[thelee]

 

 

Does this mean that light armor goes from a .83 coefficient to a 1.03 with both armored grace and cutthroat cosmo???

It gets capped at 1.00)

 

Armor penalty reduction effects can only reduce the penalty up to 0.

 

Sorry for an off-top, but as you mentioned armor... if I lack armor penetration and get -25% dmg, is it addtitive with damage bonuses such as an active ability bonus, for example +25% damage + -25% damage = basic damage or 1,25*0,75=0,93?

 

 

it's additive, but you have to convert the -25% into the internal representation that deadfire uses, which is 1-1/(1+penalty). In the case of a -25% graze, it functions as a -25% damage modifier when it's by itself but when combined with other modifiers is weighted as a -.33 modifier before everything gets converted back. This means a -25% graze actually can cancel out up to +33% worth of damage bonuses (which are strictly additive). So damage maluses are worth more than bonuses. However, it's not all bad because the way things are combined iirc damage maluses are additive according to their internal representation, so two separate -25% maluses turn into -40% malus (instead of becoming a -50% malus if additively combined or -44% malus if multiplicatively combined).

 

this means -75% underpenetration is really severe, because it can cancel out 1-1/(1-.75) => +300% worth of damage bonuses.

 

it's weird, it's not really intuitive, and it's hard to do in your head.

Edited July 1, 2018 by thelee

[thelee]

 

 

 

Does this mean that light armor goes from a .83 coefficient to a 1.03 with both armored grace and cutthroat cosmo???

It gets capped at 1.00)

 

Armor penalty reduction effects can only reduce the penalty up to 0.

 

Sorry for an off-top, but as you mentioned armor... if I lack armor penetration and get -25% dmg, is it addtitive with damage bonuses such as an active ability bonus, for example +25% damage + -25% damage = basic damage or 1,25*0,75=0,93?

 

 

it's additive, but you have to convert the -25% into the internal representation that deadfire uses, which is 1-1/(1+penalty). In the case of a -25% graze, it functions as a -25% damage modifier when it's by itself but when combined with other modifiers is weighted as a -.33 modifier before everything gets converted back. This means a -25% graze actually can cancel out up to +33% worth of damage bonuses (which are strictly additive). So damage maluses are worth more than bonuses. However, it's not all bad because the way things are combined iirc damage maluses are additive according to their internal representation, so two separate -25% maluses turn into -40% malus (instead of becoming a -50% malus if additively combined or -44% malus if multiplicatively combined).

 

this means -75% underpenetration is really severe, because it can cancel out 1-1/(1-.75) => +300% worth of damage bonuses.

 

it's weird, it's not really intuitive, and it's hard to do in your head.

 

 

though it sort of "makes sense" if you see a -25% damage malus not as "do 25% less damage" but "require the player to do 1-1/(1-.25) more effort to achieve the same thing" which "makes sense" if you treat maluses as rate adjustments to a player's damage output. doing it this way is abstract, but it does let Obsidian provide a lot of damage maluses without ever worrying about the player doing 0 or less damage.

[Boeroer]

OR... you could leave all that 1-1(1-)//1()(1/0.674)) shenanigans aside and use a simple cap?

[thelee]

OR... you could leave all that 1-1(1-)//1()(1/0.674)) shenanigans aside and use a simple cap?

 

Personally I'm not wild about caps; I don't even like the fact that stats are capped at 35 because it seems like a design flaw in the Deadfire version of resolve that it needs a cap to be functional.

 

It seems like in addition to avoiding 0/negative damage, this is also a way for Obsidian to make underpenetration and grazes much more meaningful than in PoE1 (ok, there was no underpenetration, but grazes can become trivialized).

 

Though IMO it would've been a lot easier if Obsidian had just said "screw consistency, we'll make weapon modal penalties/graze/underpenetration multiplicative modifiers"

Edited July 1, 2018 by thelee

[MaxQuest]

Personally I'm not wild about caps; I don't even like the fact that stats are capped at 35 because it seems like a design flaw in the Deadfire version of resolve that it needs a cap to be functional.

Feeling the same. If there is an upper cap, it's like something is spiraling out of control and game mechanics can't handle it, which denotes a poor system.

Although am ok with bottom caps. Like: at least 20% of damage always go through. An experienced player will find a way to deal more than threshold; but it might help someone less experienced against blocking in combat when they just can't deal damage and being forced to reload the save.

 

It seems like in addition to avoiding 0/negative damage, this is also a way for Obsidian to make underpenetration and grazes much more meaningful than in PoE1 (ok, there was no underpenetration, but grazes can become trivialized).

Exactly this)

-0.5 from additive graze is less stingy, when you have high MIG, can backstab or deathblow)

 

Though IMO it would've been a lot easier if Obsidian had just said "screw consistency, we'll make weapon modal penalties/graze/underpenetration multiplicative modifiers"

Yup. Been suggested: v4 and v5 from here.

Although if graze is to be multiplicative, imo crit should be too. If under-penetration is multiplicative, over-penetration should be too.

Edited July 1, 2018 by MaxQuest

[thelee]

Although if graze is to be multiplicative, imo crit should be too. If under-penetration is multiplicative, over-penetration should be too.

 

in my experience over-penetration is so hard to achieve mid-to-late game against reasonable enemies in 1.1 potd that you should be rewarded with a +30% multiplicative damage bonus. in certain situations it would make weapon modals useful to try to get to overpenetration, whereas right now the likely hit to your recovery is going to far outweigh the small relative increase in damage from overpenetration.

Edited July 1, 2018 by thelee

[Boeroer]

That would make PEN even more impactful. It already is on PotD.

 

Multiplicative graze/crit: no problem for me. If it becomes too severe you can always tweak the numbers a bit.

Edited July 1, 2018 by Boeroer

[Sotnik]

Thank you all for the comments on PEN. The current system turns out to be not so bad (could be worse ), although the game lacks internal information on mechanics again.

 

This might be relevant to PEN as well, but in my opinion Graze and Crit should have been multiplicative multipliers. Probably I am influenced by the traditions of rpgs where crits are almost always multiplicative.

Edited July 2, 2018 by Sotnik

[kilay]

How does the math behind Armored Grace work? I don't get how the -25% armor recovery penalty from the tooltip factors in.

A: It is a bit convoluted but works in the following way:

- the game doesn't operate that much with [recovery_time] penalties for armors; Instead it stores and uses their speed coefficients.

- for heavy armors it is: 0.645 (= 1/1.55)

- for medium armors it is: 0.741 (= 1/1.35)

- for light armors it is: 0.833 (= 1/1.20)

 

Now, Armored Grace increases the armor speed coefficient by +0.1, which becomes:

- for heavy armors: 0.745 coef => (1/0.745 = 1.342) => +34% displayed recovery time penalty

- for medium armors: 0.841 => (1/0.841 = 1.189) => +19% displayed recovery time penalty

- for light armors: 0.933 => (1/0.933 = 1.071) => +7% displayed recovery time penalty

P.S. Yeap, tooltip lies. The actual value is 0.1, not 0.25. And it reduces recovery speed penalty, not recovery time penalty.

 

Many thnks for explanation , just a question. What do the

 

"ExtraValue": -0.25

 

in the status effect of armored grace (gamedatabundle) ?

is it just the wrong value reported in the gui? And is it not required for any other maths process?

In this case can i change it to -0.1  to fix the wrong displayed value in game ?

 

Thnks in advance

Edited July 16, 2018 by kilay

[MaxQuest]

What do the "ExtraValue": -0.25

 

in the status effect of armored grace (gamedatabundle) ?

is it just the wrong value reported in the gui? And is it not required for any other maths process?

In this case can i change it to -0.1  to fix the wrong displayed value in game ?

 

Thnks in advance

Tbh will have to test it myself in order to answer this)

And most likely will have time only on weekend.

[kilay]

 

What do the "ExtraValue": -0.25

 

in the status effect of armored grace (gamedatabundle) ?

is it just the wrong value reported in the gui? And is it not required for any other maths process?

In this case can i change it to -0.1  to fix the wrong displayed value in game ?

 

Thnks in advance

Tbh will have to test it myself in order to answer this)

And most likely will have time only on weekend.

 

 

Thnks for reply

 

I already did that and seems works as intended, hopefully it doesn't touch other mechanics and t'is just a gui.stringtable reference

Edited July 17, 2018 by kilay

[hansvedic]

I noticed a couple things as I was playing with the speed calculator:

1. Picking the Articulated bonus (Devil of Caroc breastplate), a breastplate as the gear, and the Armored Grace & Cutthroat Cosmo options results in a lower recovery time than the base. Is this correct? I was under the impression that Articulated, Armored Grace, and Cutthroat Cosmo all affected the effect armor has on recovery, and thus couldn't go lower than the base.
2. It seems like a Marauder activating Frenzy and with the Streetfighter bonus can still swing battle axes rather quickly, even with the bleed modal on. Has anyone tried this in a playthrough?

Any thoughts on those items?

[Boeroer]

1. No. Articulated gives you an actual speed bonus like Frenzy etc. does. So if you can reduce the recovery malus of the Breastplate enough you will be faster than without armor because the speed bonus is higher than the recovery malus.

 

2. Yes. Both stack. Frenzy gives you an attack speed bonus that reduces animation time and recovery while Heating Up cuts the recovery in half. Heating Up doesn't negate Bleeding Cuts because of double inversion (the way maluses are calculated under the hood). But it helps a lot.

[hansvedic]

1. No. Articulated gives you an actual speed bonus like Frenzy etc. does. So if you can reduce the recovery malus of the Breastplate enough you will be faster than without armor because the speed bonus is higher than the recovery malus.

 

2. Yes. Both stack. Frenzy gives you an attack speed bonus that reduces animation time and recovery while Heating Up cuts the recovery in half. Heating Up doesn't negate Bleeding Cuts because of double inversion (the way maluses are calculated under the hood). But it helps a lot.

 

Thanks, Boeroer.

 

As for the battle axes, the calculator seems to suggest that, with Frenzy, Bloodlust, Two-Weapon Style, and the Streetfighter bonus that one can get the total attack time down to 2.1 seconds (0.5 attack time, 1.6 recovery time) per attack with 10 dexterity even with the Battle Axe modal on. That seems pretty darn fast. I may have to try a dual battle-axe build one of these days on a Streetfighter, especially a Maurader, given this.

[Boeroer]

Yes, it is fast. But it's also a ton of attack speed/recovery bonuses.

[MaxQuest]

I noticed a couple things as I was playing with the speed calculator [...]

Confirming that Boeroer has correctly answered your questions

 

 

As for the battle axes, the calculator seems to suggest that, with Frenzy, Bloodlust, Two-Weapon Style, and the Streetfighter bonus that one can get the total attack time down to 2.1 seconds (0.5 attack time, 1.6 recovery time) per attack with 10 dexterity even with the Battle Axe modal on. That seems pretty darn fast.

It's indeed so)

Btw, given the amount of full-attacks a Marauder can use, you can improve the attack rate even further, by taking a fast weapon in your offhand, because mainhand recovery is waved during FA. E.g:

- normal attack (with mainhand battle axe and offhand battle axe): 4.2s (2.1s + 2.1s)

- normal attack (with mainhand battle axe and offhand dagger): 3.4s (2.1s + 1.3s)

 

- full attack (with mainhand battle axe and offhand battle axe): 2.6s (0.5s + 2.1s)

- full attack (with mainhand battle axe and offhand dagger): 1.8s (0.5 + 1.3s)

 

Moreover there are some fast weapons with extra speed enchantments, like: Rännig's Wrath (Flurry: +10% action speed), Squid's Grasp (Attempted Parley: +30% Action Speed when threatened by 3 or more enemies), and so on.

[pmchem]

Is the original post still fully correct and complete as of patch 4.1?  Great resource for new/returning players.

 

Thank you to people who worked on all this!

Edited January 26, 2019 by pmchem

[Boeroer]

Afaik nothing about those mechanics changed.

[falchen]

Am I correct that there is no benefit to dual wielding two guns vs gun / one handed melee weapon if no abilities are in play and you just autoattack at range?

[thelee]

Am I correct that there is no benefit to dual wielding two guns vs gun / one handed melee weapon if no abilities are in play and you just autoattack at range?

 

depends on if the guns have any special passive bonuses that you can combine, but yes, in general you are correct. in fact, if you have a particular gun or one-handed ranged-weapon that you like to use a lot, it is optimal to wield it with a one-handed melee weapon instead of a lesser second gun, if no full attacks are in play.

Edited January 30, 2019 by thelee

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

 

Am I correct that there is no benefit to dual wielding two guns vs gun / one handed melee weapon if no abilities are in play and you just autoattack at range?

 

depends on if the guns have any special passive bonuses that you can combine, but yes, in general you are correct. in fact, if you have a particular gun or one-handed ranged-weapon that you like to use a lot, it is optimal to wield it with a one-handed melee weapon instead of a lesser second gun, if no full attacks are in play.

 

 

 

Yup. Theoretically no difference, but in practice almost always a huge difference, if only because it's a lot easier to enchant one blunderbuss up to "Legendary" (or even "Mythical") and then hold a stat stick like Griffin's Blade in the offhand than it is to enchant two different blunderbussi up to similar levels. 

Edited January 30, 2019 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

[Elric Galad]

 

Am I correct that there is no benefit to dual wielding two guns vs gun / one handed melee weapon if no abilities are in play and you just autoattack at range?

 

depends on if the guns have any special passive bonuses that you can combine, but yes, in general you are correct. in fact, if you have a particular gun or one-handed ranged-weapon that you like to use a lot, it is optimal to wield it with a one-handed melee weapon instead of a lesser second gun, if no full attacks are in play.

 

 

Agreed. Also your character will automatically switch between melee and ranged weapon provided you are in the right range.

So it enables switching melee vs range without delay. It doesn't add power, but it adds versatility.

[giftmefood]

 

Am I correct that there is no benefit to dual wielding two guns vs gun / one handed melee weapon if no abilities are in play and you just autoattack at range?

 

depends on if the guns have any special passive bonuses that you can combine, but yes, in general you are correct. in fact, if you have a particular gun or one-handed ranged-weapon that you like to use a lot, it is optimal to wield it with a one-handed melee weapon instead of a lesser second gun, if no full attacks are in play.

 

Unrelated question but I just want to get the bottom of this. Is stacking -% recovery time items and skills a good idea or does it have diminishing returns? Because based on what I read, you and MaxQuest haven't agreed on whether it has diminishing or linear returns. 

[thelee]

 

 

Am I correct that there is no benefit to dual wielding two guns vs gun / one handed melee weapon if no abilities are in play and you just autoattack at range?

 

 

depends on if the guns have any special passive bonuses that you can combine, but yes, in general you are correct. in fact, if you have a particular gun or one-handed ranged-weapon that you like to use a lot, it is optimal to wield it with a one-handed melee weapon instead of a lesser second gun, if no full attacks are in play.

 

Unrelated question but I just want to get the bottom of this. Is stacking -% recovery time items and skills a good idea or does it have diminishing returns? Because based on what I read, you and MaxQuest haven't agreed on whether it has diminishing or linear returns.

IIRC we actually do agree, MaxQuest has a specific definition for "intrinsic diminishing returns." This is the idea that mathematically, with linear returns you still get less relative benefit from something the more you have of it. I agree with the math, I just more disagree with the naming.

 

Basically under a scenario with linear returns (or intrinsinc diminishing returns) you should be concerned with tradeoffs; it essentially means that if you're trading off between two sources of damage boost (e.g. might or dexterity) you should balance them out (as I've mentioned elsewhere it's for the same reason why maximizing the area of something with a fixed perimeter means creating a square instead of a rectangle). "True" diminishing returns means eventually it's just not worth investing in on its own, regardless of merit, which is not the case for something like recovery time.