[ENDING SPOILERS] The ending of Deadfire and what it means for The Lore

[Yria]

At this point I just hope it was Eothas being dumb, and not the devs, because the more I think about it the crazier his plan seems. As somebody already pointed out, animals have souls too. So if they stop being reborn... bye bye Eora's eco system. And since animals' lifespans are generally shorter than those of kith, the effects will be here for the current generation to witness very soon.

Edited May 14, 2018 by Yria

[Juodas Varnas]

Now I want to see a Wael godlike for this eating/stealing body.

 

"Is it a boy or a girl" - Professor Oak.

Congratulations! It's an incoherent mass of eyes and mouths!

 

I'd personally like to see Skaen's Godlikes, since they were mentioned to be so malformed that they'd usually be killed at birth, so finding one that wasn't would be pretty cool.

[Synx]

My 2 cents for this discussion. I don't remember to much specific stuff from PoE so might be a bit wrong on some parts.

 

1) The Engwithans created the gods, to provide guidance and a common connecter for the countless 'barbaric' tribes. But that's it as far as I understood. Souls and I would assume reincarnation cycle already existed, so I would assume the wheel already existed as well. There isn't really any clue who made the wheel or where it came from. It could mean there were actually gods at some point, or some other higher being.

 

​2) I would say the Adra pillars are linked to the wheel; they are like entry points for souls to get to the wheel. They existed before the Engwithans as if I recall correctly they created machines around them to sacrifice/manipulate souls to create the gods.

 

​3) If I understood correctly Eothas plan was not only to learn the gods a lesson, but the kith as well. Both became 'corrupted' in his eyes, more focused on their own agenda, than the greater good. By destroying the Wheel, Eothas puts the Kith in charge of their own faith and the Gods faith. For the Kith it means repairing the Wheel so they won't die out at a point, which most likely would require collaboration between each race and faction in the world. For the Gods it means they need to put the fade of the Kith before their own agenda again, as the Kith can chose to remove the Gods soulsiving from the wheel (which means they will die at some point), as I assume they will find out how to remove/add that function to the Wheel while repairing it. That's what Eothas plan seemed for me; show what the gods really are (man made, requiring souls to exist) and put the faith of everyone and everything in the hands of the kith. If they don't work together to repair the wheel, everything will die out sooner or later; And it's their own fault.

 

​4) From all this It would make sense there are actual gods or something similar. Somebody or something has to create the reincarnation cycle, especially as it constructed a machine to support it.

[Aramintai]

1) The Engwithans created the gods, to provide guidance and a common connecter for the countless 'barbaric' tribes. But that's it as far as I understood. Souls and I would assume reincarnation cycle already existed, so I would assume the wheel already existed as well. There isn't really any clue who made the wheel or where it came from. It could mean there were actually gods at some point, or some other higher being.

 

No, it is said in POE2 that the Engwithans created the Wheel. That's why it feels like a retcon of POE1 lore.

[Aramintai]

​4) From all this It would make sense there are actual gods or something similar. Somebody or something has to create the reincarnation cycle, especially as it constructed a machine to support it.

There were no actual gods according POE1 lore that's why Engwithans created the artificial ones. And Engwithans created the Wheel along with reincarnation cycle according to POE2 retcon. So it is not known how the ef nobody died out before the Engwitnans, how it worked before the Wheel. So Eothas hopes that kith (animancers) will be able to create/fix the machine he's broken.

Edited May 14, 2018 by Aramintai

[Synx]

 

1) The Engwithans created the gods, to provide guidance and a common connecter for the countless 'barbaric' tribes. But that's it as far as I understood. Souls and I would assume reincarnation cycle already existed, so I would assume the wheel already existed as well. There isn't really any clue who made the wheel or where it came from. It could mean there were actually gods at some point, or some other higher being.

 

No, it is said in POE2 that the Engwithans created the Wheel. That's why it feels like a retcon of POE1 lore.

 

 

Really? I missed that then. I just thought they created the gods, but not the restoration cycle and the wheel. I guess it makes more sense for the story that animancers can repair it, as the Engwithans used it to create it.

 

But yeah it rises questions what was before that. And if the souls are going to run out soon.

Edited May 14, 2018 by Synx

[NocturnalTrance]

 

 

Really? I missed that then. I just thought they created the gods, but not the restoration cycle and the wheel. I guess it makes more sense for the story that animancers can repair it, as the Engwithans used it to create it.

 

But yeah it rises questions what was before that. And if the souls are going to run out soon.

 

 

Didn't Berath say it would take a couple generations before the souls run out? I don't remember when they said that, but I'm pretty sure it was after you learned of Eothas's plot. I am trying to undestand his end goal. He gives the opportunity for kith to decide if they want the gods or not by forcing both the hand of the gods and kith into a race to keep the world afloat? Still waiting to see the ednign slides on the wiki just to see how stuff deviates, but right now I am disappointed but the ending, the last choice you make talking to Eothas seems to have little effect and result in jjust a little flavor variation for the ending. Feels a little like ME3 ending where everythinghas just a different color, in POE2 the last choice seems to add to a scale of +/- inginuity. Save perhaps for the ending where Eothas reforms Maros Nua's body into a temporary haven, the inside aparently is like the elysian fields, for the souls stuck in the in-between. Still leads to nowhere though. The archamges said they did have a plan however, should the worst possible scenario take place.

Edited May 14, 2018 by NocturnalTrance

[Aramintai]

Didn't Berath say it would take a couple generations before the souls run out? I don't remember when they said that, but I'm pretty sure it was after you learned of Eothas's plot. I am trying to undestand his end goal. He gives the opportunity for kith to decide if they want the gods or not by forcing both the hand of the gods and kith into a race to keep the world afloat? Still waiting to see the ednign slides on the wiki just to see how stuff deviates, but right now I am disappointed but the ending, the last choice you make talking to Eothas seems to have little effect and result in jjust a little flavor variation for the ending. Feels a little like ME3 ending where everythinghas just a different color, in POE2 the last choice seems to add to a scale of +/- inginuity. Save perhaps for the ending where Eothas reforms Maros Nua's body into a temporary haven, the inside aparently is like the elysian fields, for the souls stuck in the in-between, that still needs to nowhere though. The archamges said they did have a plan however, should the worst possible scenario take place.

Yea, whole main plot is disappointing because you can't do anything to change the outcome, you're just taken on the ride to watch it unfurl on the sidelines along with the other gods. I wouldn't mind it in other game genres, like action adventure, for example, but I strongly do mind of one half assed ending in an RPG.

Edited May 14, 2018 by Aramintai

[Utritum]

From what I understand, the point of the Wheel is that every time a soul passes through it, a piece of it is chipped off, presumably by some process carried out by Rymrgand, and the energy from this soul piece is used to maintain the gods.

Maybe there was some natural cycle of reincarnation in play before the Engwithans came along, and the Engwithans studied this process and managed to create the Wheel to more or less perfectly imitate it, but with the difference that it included this energy siphon for the gods. The Engwithans then destroyed the natural system to ensure that souls of the dead would have no option but to go the Wheel, because, well, they wanted their gods to last somewhere in the ballpark of forever. This is just a theory of course.

Edited May 14, 2018 by Utritum

[BrokenMask]

Well you can make suggestion to Eothas what he does after breaking the wheel though at least. But yeah, definitely agreeing(even if I like the game and plot) that there are weird issues with it. Like it feels weird how final mission begins with final boss fight, then is "let's clean up the faction hating you" then the final debate with gods were they tell you what they want you to tell Eothas to do and then final short dialog with Eothas where he gives pep talk to each of companion and lets you make your request.

[Juodas Varnas]

Honestly, this game goes into the pile of games where "main character might as well stayed at home, cause he changed nothing meaningful in the end" 

[E.RedMark]

Honestly, this game goes into the pile of games where "main character might as well stayed at home, cause he changed nothing meaningful in the end" 

 

but if the main character stay at home ! who will be witness to the incompetence of the world ?! who gonna write back to home and tell stories (actually whine but hey let's go with that lol) about how you defeated an Ogre by giving him a calculus equation! 

[Ryz009]

 

Didn't Berath say it would take a couple generations before the souls run out? I don't remember when they said that, but I'm pretty sure it was after you learned of Eothas's plot. I am trying to undestand his end goal. He gives the opportunity for kith to decide if they want the gods or not by forcing both the hand of the gods and kith into a race to keep the world afloat? Still waiting to see the ednign slides on the wiki just to see how stuff deviates, but right now I am disappointed but the ending, the last choice you make talking to Eothas seems to have little effect and result in jjust a little flavor variation for the ending. Feels a little like ME3 ending where everythinghas just a different color, in POE2 the last choice seems to add to a scale of +/- inginuity. Save perhaps for the ending where Eothas reforms Maros Nua's body into a temporary haven, the inside aparently is like the elysian fields, for the souls stuck in the in-between, that still needs to nowhere though. The archamges said they did have a plan however, should the worst possible scenario take place.

Yea, whole main plot is disappointing because you can't do anything to change the outcome, you're just taken on the ride to watch it unfurl on the sidelines along with the other gods. I wouldn't mind it in other game genres, like action adventure, for example, but I strongly do mind of one half assed ending in an RPG.

 

 

To be fair you can tweak the endings. (Asking Eothas to slightly modify his plan can result in the destruction of everything, Berath getting more power and because of that everything becomes more predictable, the souls actually having somewhere to stay while the Wheel's being remade, and a bit more.)

 

It's mainly that Eothas will always break the wheel. You can change some details about it but that one thing is constant.

Edited May 14, 2018 by Ryz009

[Aramintai]

To be fair you can tweak the endings. (Asking Eothas to slightly modify his plan can result in the destruction of everything, Berath getting more power and because of that everything becomes more predictable, the souls actually having somewhere to stay while the Wheel's being remade, and a bit more.)

 

That's just some minor fluff, but the main dish stays the same.

[E.RedMark]

 

 

Didn't Berath say it would take a couple generations before the souls run out? I don't remember when they said that, but I'm pretty sure it was after you learned of Eothas's plot. I am trying to undestand his end goal. He gives the opportunity for kith to decide if they want the gods or not by forcing both the hand of the gods and kith into a race to keep the world afloat? Still waiting to see the ednign slides on the wiki just to see how stuff deviates, but right now I am disappointed but the ending, the last choice you make talking to Eothas seems to have little effect and result in jjust a little flavor variation for the ending. Feels a little like ME3 ending where everythinghas just a different color, in POE2 the last choice seems to add to a scale of +/- inginuity. Save perhaps for the ending where Eothas reforms Maros Nua's body into a temporary haven, the inside aparently is like the elysian fields, for the souls stuck in the in-between, that still needs to nowhere though. The archamges said they did have a plan however, should the worst possible scenario take place.

Yea, whole main plot is disappointing because you can't do anything to change the outcome, you're just taken on the ride to watch it unfurl on the sidelines along with the other gods. I wouldn't mind it in other game genres, like action adventure, for example, but I strongly do mind of one half assed ending in an RPG.

 

 

To be fair you can tweak the endings. (Asking Eothas to slightly modify his plan can result in the destruction of everything, Berath getting more power and because of that everything becomes more predictable, the souls actually having somewhere to stay while the Wheel's being remade, and a bit more.)

 

It's mainly that Eothas will always break the wheel. You can change some details about it but that one thing is constant.

 

and if you play goodie goodie...you can't even change his mind . Even as his priest ! So one ending . regardless of those things . 

[Aramintai]

Honestly, this game goes into the pile of games where "main character might as well stayed at home, cause he changed nothing meaningful in the end" 

It was like he went to the cinema to watch an action movie about Eothas destroying stuff. No interactivity there.

[Ryz009]

 

To be fair you can tweak the endings. (Asking Eothas to slightly modify his plan can result in the destruction of everything, Berath getting more power and because of that everything becomes more predictable, the souls actually having somewhere to stay while the Wheel's being remade, and a bit more.)

 

That's just some minor fluff, but the main dish stays the same.

 

 

I don't consider that minor. There's a reason you're leaving yet again to go back to Dyrwood

[Aramintai]

 

 

To be fair you can tweak the endings. (Asking Eothas to slightly modify his plan can result in the destruction of everything, Berath getting more power and because of that everything becomes more predictable, the souls actually having somewhere to stay while the Wheel's being remade, and a bit more.)

 

That's just some minor fluff, but the main dish stays the same.

 

 

I don't consider that minor. There's a reason you're leaving yet again to go back to Dyrwood

Wouldn't everybody? I too would like to see the big hole Eothas left of my keep with my own eyes. And at least check if anything is salvageable and who's still alive. Put some finality to it, so to speak.

 

And then I wanna travel to the Living Lands in the sequel. Those always sounded the most interesting to me.

Edited May 14, 2018 by Aramintai

[E.RedMark]

that sounded suspicious you know @Aramintai...

 

'wanna see the big hole'....I betcha you will think of golf  ! Wooo! one big hole !  at least...that's what I do if we go back lol 

[Aramintai]

that sounded suspicious you know @Aramintai...

 

'wanna see the big hole'....I betcha you will think of golf  ! Wooo! one big hole !  at least...that's what I do if we go back lol 

Some people always talk about what ails them 

[E.RedMark]

 

that sounded suspicious you know @Aramintai...

 

'wanna see the big hole'....I betcha you will think of golf  ! Wooo! one big hole !  at least...that's what I do if we go back lol 

Some people always talk about what ails them 

 

does that mean you have the ear for what ails me? and that remind me of Ale...aile me.....Booze! 

 

[Harry Easter]

@Aramintai 

 

That's just speculation with no evidence. And those druids worshiped the artificial gods, just like the rest of Eora, so they were doing their rituals within the system.

 

 

 

Is that so clear? I think organised religion was founded with the gods and when you travel through the Deadfire, that imply that there are other kinds of worships, so it isn't completely without merit.

 

No, it is stated in POE2 that with the Wheel broken there will be no rebirths, souls will go to the Beyond and won't return. And sooner or later Eora will be void of life, because souls won't return to inhabit the bodies. So it's very ****ed up now thanks to Eothas. 

 

 

Still not sure, that it is that clear. I mean when we assist Xoti and the vailian Animancers we can send souls through Adra into the core of the world, so I think reincarnation is still possible. But with Eothas destroying the Wheel (the apparatus, not the act of reincarnation), the organised process was destroyed and since everyone depended on it, there will be chaos. As long as there is Adra, reincarnation is possible. At the moment it only has to be done manually (with the Animancers opening portals and the followers of Gaun collecting souls). 

 

No, it is stated in one of the dialogues with the gods that they still could but decided not to inhabit physical bodies anymore after Ondra killed Abydon. Too afraid to start killing each other again? Kinda weak point considering Eothas threatened their whole existence. And now they're ****ed too because breaking the Wheel also broke the In-Between from which they siphoned souls to sustain themselves.

 

 

Mortal bodies, yes, but not big Soul batteries like the Adrabody of Eothas. Mortal bodies are not suitable, like we saw with Waidwen. 

 

 

@Sotof

Honestly, I think the simplest version would be that whatever the Engwithans did to create the Wheel also destroyed the previous process (who knows if even that had been natural?) that existed before. It would not just hijack the process that came before the Wheel, but replace it entirely. As for souls getting destroyed then either is probably true: a certain frosty fellow is eating them or Eora is not a closed system.

 

 

That would make sense, too. Like nature taking care of it and then the Wheel destroyed the natural order? Wouldn't that imply, that they tried to make sure that only the strong and good souls get reincarnated? I have a feeling that the Enwithans would that kind of people^^.

 

 

@Synx

​3) If I understood correctly Eothas plan was not only to learn the gods a lesson, but the kith as well. Both became 'corrupted' in his eyes, more focused on their own agenda, than the greater good. By destroying the Wheel, Eothas puts the Kith in charge of their own faith and the Gods faith. For the Kith it means repairing the Wheel so they won't die out at a point, which most likely would require collaboration between each race and faction in the world. For the Gods it means they need to put the fade of the Kith before their own agenda again, as the Kith can chose to remove the Gods soulsiving from the wheel (which means they will die at some point), as I assume they will find out how to remove/add that function to the Wheel while repairing it. That's what Eothas plan seemed for me; show what the gods really are (man made, requiring souls to exist) and put the faith of everyone and everything in the hands of the kith. If they don't work together to repair the wheel, everything will die out sooner or later; And it's their own fault.

 

 

That is a good summary of his motives. He reads like a self-righteous jerk in the lore description, so I bow down to this very astute analysis.

 

 

And I wouldn't see, that what we did wasn't nothing. Our decisions may lay the groundwork for more animancy in the world and giving the souls a place to rest in Eothas body is a nice detail. I find the ending at least interesting, because it showcased how powerful one god really can be and how much of a chance mortals would have against him (read: none). I'm more interested how we will continue this. 

Will we travel to the living lands and fight for ressources with other factions (the lands were mentioned at least twice. Considering that Deadfire was hinted in the White March, this could be a good clue)?

 

Or will the last part of the trilogy take place in Aedyr, the most powerful nation of the world, that collapses under the destruction of the natural order? I would find this kind of interesting, like playing the war before the post-appocalypse. Maybe they could add a fourth game. Pillars of Eternity: New Caed Nua, does have a ring to it .

[Aramintai]

Still not sure, that it is that clear. I mean when we assist Xoti and the vailian Animancers we can send souls through Adra into the core of the world, so I think reincarnation is still possible. But with Eothas destroying the Wheel (the apparatus, not the act of reincarnation), the organised process was destroyed and since everyone depended on it, there will be chaos. As long as there is Adra, reincarnation is possible. At the moment it only has to be done manually (with the Animancers opening portals and the followers of Gaun collecting souls).  

You should probably revisit the main plot dialogues. It's very clear. The Wheel is the reincarnation process, with it destroyed the gods tell you that souls will no longer travel back from the Beyond.

[Harry Easter]

 

Still not sure, that it is that clear. I mean when we assist Xoti and the vailian Animancers we can send souls through Adra into the core of the world, so I think reincarnation is still possible. But with Eothas destroying the Wheel (the apparatus, not the act of reincarnation), the organised process was destroyed and since everyone depended on it, there will be chaos. As long as there is Adra, reincarnation is possible. At the moment it only has to be done manually (with the Animancers opening portals and the followers of Gaun collecting souls).  

You should probably revisit the main plot dialogues. It's very clear. The Wheel is the reincarnation process, with it destroyed the gods tell you that souls will no longer travel back from the Beyond.

 

 

By whom? The gods? The same liars that have an interest to keep the system alive? I don't know if we can consider them as reliable sources. What I got out of the story was, that no one really knew what Eothas deeds would accomplish. 

[Eirin]

I just finished the game for the first time and I'm a bit meh about the ending as well. Not just because of the lack of impact of the Watcher's decision on what happens with the wheel but also a lot of technical stuff - I got a lot of spelling mistakes throughout the game dialogues as well as in the final slides. And I think I've run through all the ending options now just for hecks and to see what the options were myself. For a game that was delayed by a month (?) you think spelling mistakes - and a fair few in the ending slides - would be absent. Overall I'm quite happy with the game, I had loads of fun, liked the cameos and was happy there wasn't that much soul reading this time. I couldn't cope with that much unrelated reading in POE1 where every single NPC you stumbled upon had essays and essays of backstory but never actually said anything. Waiting for DLCs now whilst replaying and pursuing Aloth's romance! 

 

 

Also, heckin main quest was super short. I had 37 hr clocked before I went to randevous with Eothas on the volcano and then follow him further and then the game just abruptly ended. Most of it is small quests for factions and some for companions, I feel like I wanted more from Eothas the boyo.

Edited May 14, 2018 by Eirin