Wizard: Illusionist

[kbot]

Well, the hour is very nigh, but..

 

The wizard: illusionist subclass - casts mirror image upon first being hit (a .5 second cast spell). It's a spell that's easily overwritten by higher spells with the same cast time and similar, over very, superior effects, e.g Llengrath's displaced image (that's just a single rank higher), and I'm sure other stuff as we get higher than is visible in beta.

 

Why does this one subclass get such a redundant skill when all the others get unique ones (automatically being freed from dex afflictions, an ogre transformation, possible double damage from evocation spells... etc.)?

 

I'm kinda surprised we got through this many patches with it yet unchanged...

[dunehunter]

Automatically being free to dex affliction is meh too, basically u just need to select wood elf and pick fleet feet, u already immune to dec afflictions now because all Paralyze is downgraded to immobilized, which can be canceled by fleet feet.

Edited May 1, 2018 by dunehunter

[Boeroer]

The cast of Mirrored Image is instantaneous and has no recovery - it also doesn't take away spell uses.

 

It's not that bad compared to the rest - they are just all equally bad compared to the drawback you experience.

Edited May 1, 2018 by Boeroer

[DozingDragon]

Hopefully the devs will consider nixing spell restrictions after release. Just give wizards without subclasses a set list of bonus spells ala priests and druids. I think everything would just about balance nicely with just those two changes.

 

But yes, as mentioned above, most of the wizard subclass bonuses are a little underwhelming.

[Ganrich]

Hopefully the devs will consider nixing spell restrictions after release. Just give wizards without subclasses a set list of bonus spells ala priests and druids. I think everything would just about balance nicely with just those two changes.

 

But yes, as mentioned above, most of the wizard subclass bonuses are a little underwhelming.

 

I would retain the bonuses the subclasses get for their school, restrict a single opposing school, increase cast times on the other opposing school, and all the other schools get no bonus.

 

So, using Illusionist as an example.  Currently, they lose Enchanting and Conjuration.  Get increased cast times on all but Illusion spells.  Gain +1 PL for Illusion spells and get Reflexive Mirror as a passive. 

 

I would have them retain power level bonus to Illusion spells and the Reflexive Mirror passive.  I'd restrict them from casting Enchanting spells.  Then I'd make Conjuration spells take longer to cast.  All other spell schools function like a normal Wizard. 

[Voss]

Hopefully the devs will consider nixing spell restrictions after release. Just give wizards without subclasses a set list of bonus spells ala priests and druids. I think everything would just about balance nicely with just those two changes.

 

But yes, as mentioned above, most of the wizard subclass bonuses are a little underwhelming.

Wizards don't need the bonus spells.  They've got grimoires.

 

The wizard subclasses are... uninspiring and restrictive, but more spells is a bad  (and fairly redundant) approach.

[kbot]

The cast of Mirrored Image is instantaneous and has no recovery - it also doesn't take away spell uses.

 

It's not that bad compared to the rest - they are just all equally bad compared to the drawback you experience.

I get that there are still some advantages. It being reactive and recovery free is nice. However,just off the top of my head, it is still:

 

1:) The only wizard subclass ability that does something that is not unique

 

2:) The only wizard subclass ability that can be easily replicated by a spell (at the same tier or others) and I'd argue extremely likely to be so.

A show of hands everyone that is going to cast, or depend upon, mirror image over displaced image in PoTd or harder fights in hard when getting mob'd.

 

3:) Does not benefit from empower (enchantment has the same issue but to my knowledge there isn't an ability that straight up frees you from a dex affliction so it doesn't suffer from 1 and 2, at least)

 

Some other issues but those look to be the most glaring.

[SaruNi]

 

The cast of Mirrored Image is instantaneous and has no recovery - it also doesn't take away spell uses.

 

It's not that bad compared to the rest - they are just all equally bad compared to the drawback you experience.

I get that there are still some advantages. It being reactive and recovery free is nice. However,just off the top of my head, it is still:

 

1:) The only wizard subclass ability that does something that is not unique

 

2:) The only wizard subclass ability that can be easily replicated by a spell (at the same tier or others) and I'd argue extremely likely to be so.

A show of hands everyone that is going to cast, or depend upon, mirror image over displaced image in PoTd or harder fights in hard when getting mob'd.

 

3:) Does not benefit from empower (enchantment has the same issue but to my knowledge there isn't an ability that straight up frees you from a dex affliction so it doesn't suffer from 1 and 2, at least)

 

Some other issues but those look to be the most glaring.

 

 

Almost all defensive buffs can't be cast outside of combat---with the exception of Llengrath's Safeguard, which only applies its buff after the caster is Bloodied (so a one-shot assassinate backstab, or Wizard Slayer initial attack, won't get stopped). So it is pretty unique. And in terms of deflection a higher bonus than Llengrath's Displaced Image (which is useful for the reflex defense bonus).

 

Imagine if enemies can ambush from stealth to initiate combat....

[Voss]

 

The cast of Mirrored Image is instantaneous and has no recovery - it also doesn't take away spell uses.

 

It's not that bad compared to the rest - they are just all equally bad compared to the drawback you experience.

I get that there are still some advantages. It being reactive and recovery free is nice. However,just off the top of my head, it is still:

 

1:) The only wizard subclass ability that does something that is not unique

 

2:) The only wizard subclass ability that can be easily replicated by a spell (at the same tier or others) and I'd argue extremely likely to be so.

A show of hands everyone that is going to cast, or depend upon, mirror image over displaced image in PoTd or harder fights in hard when getting mob'd.

 

3:) Does not benefit from empower (enchantment has the same issue but to my knowledge there isn't an ability that straight up frees you from a dex affliction so it doesn't suffer from 1 and 2, at least)

 

Some other issues but those look to be the most glaring.

 

 

1) Well... Form of the Fearsome Brute (transmuter) appears to be a potion in Beta4.  So that can be handed around to anyone

 

2) Eh.  There are a lot of subclasses that aren't PotD material.  Barring some weird changes or unexpected interactions, I don't see a lot of people leaping to mage slayers or black jackets either.  Compared to Kind Wayfarers and Bleak Walkers, the other paladin types seem to be 'yeah those also exist,' and are innately good for being paladins, but not the subclass benefits (though someone may well contradict me on that)

 

3)  Can't really speak to this- don't know how empower interacts with any of the subclass abilities.

Edited May 2, 2018 by Voss

[SaruNi]

One other issue with illusionist---by losing Enchantment spells (Infuse with Vital essence etc.), there's no good way to gain Fortitude defense (or will defense for that matter iirc). Llengrath's Safeguard and Iron Skin are also enchanting. So while Mirrored Image (and several other illusion spells) are geared towards tanking, single class illusionist fails against fortitude attacks.

 

All the Wizard subclasses (except maybe evoker) could use a boost. Maybe either give illusionist a way to deal with fortitude attacks (for example special verison of Mirrored Image that causes attacks to target Deflection instead) or add an offensive element (Mirrored Image *and* Arkemyr's Dazzling Torment). Or let illusionist cast enchantment spells.... 

[kbot]

 

 

The cast of Mirrored Image is instantaneous and has no recovery - it also doesn't take away spell uses.

 

It's not that bad compared to the rest - they are just all equally bad compared to the drawback you experience.

I get that there are still some advantages. It being reactive and recovery free is nice. However,just off the top of my head, it is still:

 

1:) The only wizard subclass ability that does something that is not unique

 

2:) The only wizard subclass ability that can be easily replicated by a spell (at the same tier or others) and I'd argue extremely likely to be so.

A show of hands everyone that is going to cast, or depend upon, mirror image over displaced image in PoTd or harder fights in hard when getting mob'd.

 

3:) Does not benefit from empower (enchantment has the same issue but to my knowledge there isn't an ability that straight up frees you from a dex affliction so it doesn't suffer from 1 and 2, at least)

 

Some other issues but those look to be the most glaring.

 

 

Almost all defensive buffs can't be cast outside of combat---with the exception of Llengrath's Safeguard, which only applies its buff after the caster is Bloodied (so a one-shot assassinate backstab, or Wizard Slayer initial attack, won't get stopped). So it is pretty unique. And in terms of deflection a higher bonus than Llengrath's Displaced Image (which is useful for the reflex defense bonus).

 

Imagine if enemies can ambush from stealth to initiate combat....

 

 

It's 25 deflection (displaced image) instead of 30 (mirror image).

 

In exchange for that 5 deflection, you get 50% hits converted to grazes, +20 reflex, and your deflection isn't reduced with each hit (mirror image, again).

 

I don't know, would you trade 5 deflection for all that?

 

Also, it has 0 recovery time, like mirror image, so that's not an advantage.

Edited May 2, 2018 by kbot

[kbot]

 

 

The cast of Mirrored Image is instantaneous and has no recovery - it also doesn't take away spell uses.

 

It's not that bad compared to the rest - they are just all equally bad compared to the drawback you experience.

I get that there are still some advantages. It being reactive and recovery free is nice. However,just off the top of my head, it is still:

 

1:) The only wizard subclass ability that does something that is not unique

 

2:) The only wizard subclass ability that can be easily replicated by a spell (at the same tier or others) and I'd argue extremely likely to be so.

A show of hands everyone that is going to cast, or depend upon, mirror image over displaced image in PoTd or harder fights in hard when getting mob'd.

 

3:) Does not benefit from empower (enchantment has the same issue but to my knowledge there isn't an ability that straight up frees you from a dex affliction so it doesn't suffer from 1 and 2, at least)

 

Some other issues but those look to be the most glaring.

 

 

Almost all defensive buffs can't be cast outside of combat---with the exception of Llengrath's Safeguard, which only applies its buff after the caster is Bloodied (so a one-shot assassinate backstab, or Wizard Slayer initial attack, won't get stopped). So it is pretty unique. And in terms of deflection a higher bonus than Llengrath's Displaced Image (which is useful for the reflex defense bonus).

 

Imagine if enemies can ambush from stealth to initiate combat....

 

 

I don't understand what you're saying.

 

Mirror image, both as a spell and as an illusionist subclass feature, can't be cast outside of combat. Just like, as you said, other buffs. What are you saying is unique about it?

 

Edit: You mean safeguard is unique? It's an enchantment spell so it doesn't even figure into the discussion with illusionists I think since it's a banned school..

Edited May 2, 2018 by kbot

[SaruNi]

 

 

 

The cast of Mirrored Image is instantaneous and has no recovery - it also doesn't take away spell uses.

 

It's not that bad compared to the rest - they are just all equally bad compared to the drawback you experience.

I get that there are still some advantages. It being reactive and recovery free is nice. However,just off the top of my head, it is still:

 

1:) The only wizard subclass ability that does something that is not unique

 

2:) The only wizard subclass ability that can be easily replicated by a spell (at the same tier or others) and I'd argue extremely likely to be so.

A show of hands everyone that is going to cast, or depend upon, mirror image over displaced image in PoTd or harder fights in hard when getting mob'd.

 

3:) Does not benefit from empower (enchantment has the same issue but to my knowledge there isn't an ability that straight up frees you from a dex affliction so it doesn't suffer from 1 and 2, at least)

 

Some other issues but those look to be the most glaring.

 

 

Almost all defensive buffs can't be cast outside of combat---with the exception of Llengrath's Safeguard, which only applies its buff after the caster is Bloodied (so a one-shot assassinate backstab, or Wizard Slayer initial attack, won't get stopped). So it is pretty unique. And in terms of deflection a higher bonus than Llengrath's Displaced Image (which is useful for the reflex defense bonus).

 

Imagine if enemies can ambush from stealth to initiate combat....

 

 

I don't understand what you're saying.

 

Mirror image, both as a spell and as an illusionist subclass feature, can't be cast outside of combat. Just like, as you said, other buffs. What are you saying is unique about it?

 

 

When attacked, the illusionist automatically and instantly gets the effects of Mirrored Image applied to that first attack, right? 

 

So it's equivalent to having it cast outside of combat, and applies to ambush scenarios. Whereas Mirrored Image has a cast time (0.4 seconds iirc) and a fast enough enemy (say, Wizard Slayer barbarian) could hit you first (and possibly interrupt the cast, etc.).

[kbot]

 

 

 

 

The cast of Mirrored Image is instantaneous and has no recovery - it also doesn't take away spell uses.

 

It's not that bad compared to the rest - they are just all equally bad compared to the drawback you experience.

I get that there are still some advantages. It being reactive and recovery free is nice. However,just off the top of my head, it is still:

 

1:) The only wizard subclass ability that does something that is not unique

 

2:) The only wizard subclass ability that can be easily replicated by a spell (at the same tier or others) and I'd argue extremely likely to be so.

A show of hands everyone that is going to cast, or depend upon, mirror image over displaced image in PoTd or harder fights in hard when getting mob'd.

 

3:) Does not benefit from empower (enchantment has the same issue but to my knowledge there isn't an ability that straight up frees you from a dex affliction so it doesn't suffer from 1 and 2, at least)

 

Some other issues but those look to be the most glaring.

 

 

Almost all defensive buffs can't be cast outside of combat---with the exception of Llengrath's Safeguard, which only applies its buff after the caster is Bloodied (so a one-shot assassinate backstab, or Wizard Slayer initial attack, won't get stopped). So it is pretty unique. And in terms of deflection a higher bonus than Llengrath's Displaced Image (which is useful for the reflex defense bonus).

 

Imagine if enemies can ambush from stealth to initiate combat....

 

 

I don't understand what you're saying.

 

Mirror image, both as a spell and as an illusionist subclass feature, can't be cast outside of combat. Just like, as you said, other buffs. What are you saying is unique about it?

 

 

When attacked, the illusionist automatically and instantly gets the effects of Mirrored Image applied to that first attack, right? 

 

So it's equivalent to having it cast outside of combat, and applies to ambush scenarios. Whereas Mirrored Image has a cast time (0.4 seconds iirc) and a fast enough enemy (say, Wizard Slayer barbarian) could hit you first (and possibly interrupt the cast, etc.).

 

I think I can see where you're going with this.

 

I don't know of a situation with auto-pause on that you can't get off  a .5 sec spell in PoE2 (beta, at least). If it was an initiative based turn-based game, I'd agree.

 

I'm also not sure if mirror image triggers when someone swings at you (and the deflection might prevent damage) or AFTER you've been attacked once. If it's the second case, it's not like pre-buffing. I'll need to check after I'm home unless someone knows off the top of their head.

 

Edit: I just checked the combat log. The illusionist mirror image does not trigger until AFTER you've taken damage. It's not like pre-buffing when you can gain the advantage prior to combat beginning.

Edited May 2, 2018 by kbot

[nightcobra]

Instead of not being able to cast spells from other schools, wouldn't it be better to double the resource cost of those spells?

 

Don't know if  that'd make the penalty negligible, but  IMO a doubled resource cost to cast a spell seems an appropriate penalty.

[fortuntek]

Instead of not being able to cast spells from other schools, wouldn't it be better to double the resource cost of those spells?

 

Don't know if  that'd make the penalty negligible, but  IMO a doubled resource cost to cast a spell seems an appropriate penalty.

 

Initially I liked that idea, but then who would pick a spell that cost twice as much to cast when there are other options? Spell choice at levelup seems a lot more important this time around without the benefit of copying from grimoires.

 

Also, how could you double the cost of a spell for situations where you only have one spell to cast at that level?

[Erik Dirk]

This is a pretty dry suggestion, however why not keep it simple, +1 power level to chosen school, -1 to every other school. (This is probably fair as it's assumed you'll be casting many more spells from your chosen school)

P.s. Autocast illusion spell wouldn't protect against stealth, however it could protect against some dual weld attacks from stealth, a concentrated barrage from rangers etc.

 

Another could be that an illusionist will teleport a short distance, ie the original position was an illusion.

[SaruNi]

Can Reflexive Mirror be interrupted? 

 

Can it be stopped by the Mage Slayer effect?

[kbot]

Can Reflexive Mirror be interrupted?

 

Can it be stopped by the Mage Slayer effect?

It's hard to tell because it doesn't trigger until after you take damage (that also .... defeats the point of an avoidance ability).

 

Honestly, suspect like any other spell - it can. It just casts so fast you'd need to be getting hit at the same time.

 

I think in beta there is only "1" or 2 NPCs with mage slayer, and they have long recoveries, so I don't know how to test mage slayer easily. That being said, unless NPCs with mage slayer are just everywhere in the full game, is that really a strong mark in it's defense?

Edited May 3, 2018 by kbot

[dunehunter]

The cast of Mirrored Image is instantaneous and has no recovery - it also doesn't take away spell uses.

 

It's not that bad compared to the rest - they are just all equally bad compared to the drawback you experience.

 

Well the Mirrored Image itself doesn't take any cast time and has 0 recovery time, so I wonder if it matters if the Reflective Mirror is instantaneous or not. So basically u get 1 free lvl 2 spell at the cost of losing two school

 

But yeah all equally bad.

[kbot]

So, I sort of have egg on my face, but unfortunately noticed some other things annoying about the effect, one of which I am sure is a bug.

 

In line with SaruNi's question about interrupts, I ran out and did some testing. Attacking some of the poor villagers after character creation (they're monks, fyi), as well as boarding a pirate ship and running head first into his death on my illusionist, repeatedly.

 

Rather embarrassingly, I noticed displaced image and mirror image were stacking. I'm not sure if I was imaging things in my earlier test or missing some debuffs dropping my deflection.

(the subclass based ability is labeled "Reflective mirror" or something similar, and is a purple icon instead of the blue face). 

 

"Well, that's no so bad", I thought.

 

However, through several reloads I noticed the following:

 

1: If have reflective image active - you cannot cast mirror image. This is an issue because every time you get hit, like mirror image, reflective image loses 5 deflection. E.g., if reflective image only has 5 deflection left, you can't cast mirror image to go back up to 30 deflection. They don't overwrite. You've got to lose the full 30 deflection to do that (the game will happily let you waste your cast time, though).

 

"Well..." I thought "...at least I'll gain reflective image when  mirror image is knocked off. That's good if I can't cast from a stun...."

 

2: Except that doesn't happen. When mirror image wears off, the combat log shows reflective image activating.... but it never does. You never get the deflection (no buff icon, no change in the character sheet, nor in the damage log of hits/grazes/miss). Nor do you see the icon and nor does it trigger anytime later in the fight.

 

In other words, if you cast mirror image ever before the subclass ability activates, it never will.

 

Less relevant but worth noting: the casting of reflective image does get interrupted - only in the combat log. In actual game play, although the log shows the spell getting interrupted, you gain the buff anyways.

[Boeroer]

I guess it stacks because Reflective Image is a passive ability?

[Ophiuchus]

I think another issue with the bonus is that the effect could potentially be replicated by a simple potion.

[dunehunter]

If mirror image is replaced by arcane veil I wouldn’t complain, veil is way more powerful:)

[kbot]

Boeorer (you probably know this but to reiterate): Mirror is essentially the same thing as reflection (30 deflection for X amount time. The deflection being reduced by 5% per hit, just with different triggering mechanism, being hit vs. casting). Just one (mirror image) invalidates the possibility of the other one (reflective) EVER working in combat. They both stack but cannot a) be renewed while either exists and b) if mirror is cast first , although reflective mirror will trigger later if mirror expires, you will never actually gain any benefit. Combat log says you gain reflective mirror but no deflection is actually added to your character. You are essentially faced with the following dilemma:

 

Cast mirror at the beginning of the fight to take advantage of 30 deflection BEFORE being hit once.

Wait to take damage, without the benefit of 30 deflection (since reflective gives you deflection AFTER you're hit), to gain the benefit the benefit of your subclass ability.

 

Don't know if this is bugged or intentional.

 

Ophiuchis: agree.

 

Dunehunter: agree but I believe veil is a forbidden school.