How useful would a Chanter/Monk be?

[Skazz]

Hello everyone! Long time lurker, first time poster. I apologize in advance if this seems like a stupid topic, but as I haven't been able to get my hands on the Deadfire beta, I'd like to refer to folks more experienced than myself.

 

First of all, let me preface by enumerating two of my favorite things from PoE 1: Chanters and Zahua. With PoE 2, I was absolutely ecstatic when they announced the multiclass feature, and even more so when I learned that one of the monk flavors available was Nalpazca. So, my character would be able to become the ultimate erudite stoner? To my tastes, it was like a match made in heaven!

 

That said, I'm also a fan of complementary features and synergies, and so far I haven't been able to find any topics discussing the Chanter/Monk combination. How viable would such a build be? Was there anything for chanters in the Deadfire beta that a Nalpazca (or, barring that, a vanilla monk) could benefit from, and vice versa?

 

I'm not talking about cookie cutter stuff here; I'm mostly looking for fun if not necessarily optimal combos.

Edited April 17, 2018 by Skazz

[Winterheart]

I think all chanter subclasses could work with a monk. With the Beckoner you can be a melee summoner. Engage the enemy mages and ranged and swarm them with your own attacks plus your summons.

 

Troubadour makes a decent melee supporter, providing passive bonuses for your melee group while beating them up.

 

With the Skald subclass and using fists you should be able to overwhelm any group with offensive invocations. I think this may be one of the most powerful damage and control builds you can make, possibly borderline gamebreaking once you get it rolling.

[Skazz]

With the Skald subclass and using fists you should be able to overwhelm any group with offensive invocations.

 

I'm kind of shooting in the dark here, but I don't suppose this could work with ranged weapons?

Edited April 17, 2018 by Skazz

[Winterheart]

 

With the Skald subclass and using fists you should be able to overwhelm any group with offensive invocations.

 

I'm kind of shooting in the dark here, but I don't suppose this could work with ranged weapons?

 

Using fists would likely be the best option here. Skalds generate phrases from critical hits so you want to attack as fast as possible.

[Boeroer]

I apologize in advance if this seems like a stupid topic

There are a some really stupid topics, but yours is definitely not among them.

 

There are some nice synergies between chanter and monk.

 

Few examples:

 

Combine "Her courage thick as steel" (30pt damage soaking shield) with a "Dance of Death" (generating wound every 3 sec as long as not getting damaged): since the 30pt-damage shield kind of stacks you can make sure little to no damage comes trough (every single hit over 30 dmg will come through, the rest will get catched). This is nice because you can get wounds without getting hit and also the nice ACC bonus (up to +12) and it won't stop soon because you'll suffer damage seldomly. You can even combine it with Blade Turning. Turning Wheel and Iron WHeel will come back at higer power levels, so it might be very benefical to keep up 10 wounds all the time because you don't get hit a lot.

 

With 10 wounds a Helwalker can get +10 MIG and like any other monk, he can also get +10 INT via Duality of Mortal Presence. This boosts chanter's AoE and stuff like the healing of Ancient Memory, the damage and healing of Soft Winds, the damage of Dragon Thrashed etc. like crazy.

 

Mith Fyr and Lightning Strikes stack so that you'll have +30% shocking damage and +25% burn damage on all your weapons. With Duality of Mortal Presence and 10 INT from it you can also make sure that your linger time is so long that you can have two different (non-stacking) chants running without a gap. For example Mith Fyr and that really neat weakening chant I forgot the name of.

 

The Long Pain works with Sure-Handed Ila, making them shoot even faster. Long Pain with Ila + Mith Fyr is very good.

 

Skald's special feat (gets phrases when he crits in melee - sorry, melee only) works well with Swift Flurry (30% chance to trigger an additional attack on a crit - which can also be a crit and so on). THis can lead to a fasteer phrase cumulation of the Skald. Especially if you cast "Killers Froze Stiff" on the enemies first - because in Deadfire a paralyzed target gives you a 50% hit-to-crit conversion(!). 

 

And so on. That combo has some nice potential.

Edited April 17, 2018 by Boeroer

[Skazz]

Thank you very much, Boeroer! This is exactly the kind of comprehensive explanation I was hoping for.

 

I had no idea Skald was so melee-centric. Also, given the lack of mentions overall (e. g. in other threads), it seems like the Nalpazca subclass itself isn't really multiclass material, which is a bummer.

 

The Long Pain + Sure-Handed Ila combo sounds both awesome and flavorful. I'll definitely give that one a whirl.

 

However, if I may sneak in one additional question, I'm wondering about weapon choices. Obviously, this rules out the The Long Pain, but for a non-fists approach, is there any particular weapon type that would stand out for a Chanter/Monk?

 

EDIT: Thank you too, Winterheart - I somehow didn't notice your second response.

Edited April 17, 2018 by Skazz

[Madscientist]

As written by Boeroer, if you mult class monk with chanter and you want to fight in melee, you should take skald because they create phreses on melee crits.

 

Nalpazca gain wounds automatically when under the influence of drugs, but they lose wounds automatically if they are not on drugs. So your usefullness depends on your access to drugs and I do not know how easy you can get in the full game. If you go that way you should defenitely take alchemy skill because it increases the power of drugs ( and potions ) a lot.

I have read that you gain wounds automatically so fast that you can have blade turning on most of the time. This would be good for a melee char which means skald would be your best choice again.

Did somebody test if reflected attacks can increase the phrases of a skald?

 

Personally I will not play a Nalpazca because I dislike having a char who needs consumables all the time to be effective, but you can play whatever you want.

[Skazz]

Personally I will not play a Nalpazca because I dislike having a char who needs consumables all the time to be effective, but you can play whatever you want.

 

Oh, sure. I can get behind that reasoning. I mean, in pretty much every single RPG I've played I had a terrible case of consumable hoarding.

 

My Zahua appreciation aside, I'd definitely want to include Nalpazca in the mix somehow for thematic reasons. My PoE 1 chanter was a guy from Ixamitl, so an Ixamitl-specific order seems like too good of an occasion to pass up. I'm fine with the overall multiclass combo being a little creaky, I just hope it won't be case of class A ending up completely incompatible with class B. Which, as the posts so far indicate, thankfully doesn't seem to be the case.

[Boeroer]

Nalpasca is the most powerful monk subclass in my opinion (in the beta). Even the lousiest drug lasts for over 600 secs with decent alchemy and the Nalpasca will gain wounds so quickly you might have problems to spend them. Thus, he's totally ok as multiclass material. I'm thinking about Nalpasca/Ascendant - expansion of consciousness and ascension with drugs and so on, you know. Also, Hammering Thoughts and Thunderous Blows stack and the +10 INT from Duality will be great when it meets the ascension when at max focus.

Edited April 17, 2018 by Boeroer

[Ascaloth]

The natural multiclass option for the Nalpazca seems to be the Mage Slayer Barbarian subclass, IMO. The Mage Slayer cannot use scrolls or potions, and gets less healing for spells than others... but drugs are A-OK. So if you have no reason not to make your Mage Slayer a druggie, why not get additional benefits from it by multiclassing it with Nalpazca?

[Max_zero]

 

I apologize in advance if this seems like a stupid topic

There are a some really stupid topics, but yours is definitely not among them.

 

There are some nice synergies between chanter and monk.

 

Few examples:

 

Combine "Her courage thick as steel" (30pt damage soaking shield) with a "Dance of Death" (generating wound every 3 sec as long as not getting damaged): since the 30pt-damage shield kind of stacks you can make sure little to no damage comes trough (every single hit over 30 dmg will come through, the rest will get catched). This is nice because you can get wounds without getting hit and also the nice ACC bonus (up to +12) and it won't stop soon because you'll suffer damage seldomly. You can even combine it with Blade Turning. Turning Wheel and Iron WHeel will come back at higer power levels, so it might be very benefical to keep up 10 wounds all the time because you don't get hit a lot.

 

With 10 wounds a Helwalker can get +10 MIG and like any other monk, he can also get +10 INT via Duality of Mortal Presence. This boosts chanter's AoE and stuff like the healing of Ancient Memory, the damage and healing of Soft Winds, the damage of Dragon Thrashed etc. like crazy.

 

Mith Fyr and Lightning Strikes stack so that you'll have +30% shocking damage and +25% burn damage on all your weapons. With Duality of Mortal Presence and 10 INT from it you can also make sure that your linger time is so long that you can have two different (non-stacking) chants running without a gap. For example Mith Fyr and that really neat weakening chant I forgot the name of.

 

The Long Pain works with Sure-Handed Ila, making them shoot even faster. Long Pain with Ila + Mith Fyr is very good.

 

Skald's special feat (gets phrases when he crits in melee - sorry, melee only) works well with Swift Flurry (30% chance to trigger an additional attack on a crit - which can also be a crit and so on). THis can lead to a fasteer phrase cumulation of the Skald. Especially if you cast "Killers Froze Stiff" on the enemies first - because in Deadfire a paralyzed target gives you a 50% hit-to-crit conversion(!). 

 

And so on. That combo has some nice potential.

 

 

You could also hide behind summons while doing damage and be almost completely safe doing great damage.

[Boeroer]

Yes, with a reach weapon for example.

[Madscientist]

The natural multiclass option for the Nalpazca seems to be the Mage Slayer Barbarian subclass, IMO. The Mage Slayer cannot use scrolls or potions, and gets less healing for spells than others... but drugs are A-OK. So if you have no reason not to make your Mage Slayer a druggie, why not get additional benefits from it by multiclassing it with Nalpazca?

 

Every other class can use drugs too so I see no advantage of a mage slayer over every other class.

Not being able to use potions or scrolls is bad and mage slayer halves also the duration of your frenzy.

 

If you want to multi class a Nalpazca with a barbarien I would use a berserker. You hit really hard, the self damage during frenzy could add more wounds ( I am not sure ) and you have a good RP reason why you are confused when you fight. Getting stoned, taking some big weapons and then running amok is something you should not try in real life.

 

PS: When writing this I remember something.

Does anybody know the german crime movie "Tatort: Im Schmerz geboren"? ( No idea if it was translated to english. Great mix of Tarentino and Shakespeare )

To cause as much chaos and death as possible, the bad guy hires some criminals, gives everyone a gun and LSD and sends them in the middle of a town to rob a bank.

[Skazz]

I'm thinking about Nalpasca/Ascendant - expansion of consciousness and ascension with drugs and so on, you know.

 

Sounds like a fun and fluffy idea! So much that I might steal it for a second playthrough. The joys of multiclassing!

 

You could also hide behind summons while doing damage and be almost completely safe doing great damage.

 

I was considering going that route, but I guess the summons' duration could be a problem? Then again, I have no idea how long-lived Deadfire's summons are.

Edited April 18, 2018 by Skazz

[Wiseude]

Any ideas for a monk ala diablo style (unarmed combat) that can off tank/deal damage if possible?

[Enoch]

The caveat about Nalpazca is that, in the most recent stream, it was the first word out of Josh's mouth when he mused about subclasses that might need a balancing pass.  In a plentiful-drug environment, they're probably a little too good.  We should probably anticipate some weakening of drugs, the Alchemy skill, and/or Nalpazca abilities. 

 

Also, the most natural multiclass option for a Nalpazca is clearly a Priest of Wael.

[Madscientist]

Any ideas for a monk ala diablo style (unarmed combat) that can off tank/deal damage if possible?

 

Monks are very good in causing damage and being tanky.

I do not know the high level talents, but if there is one that increases your armor with every wound and also one which adds lash damage for every wound ( those did exist in PoE1) I would take a single class nalpazca nature godlike.

- Why Nalpazca? Shattered pillars have less wounds, helwalkers take more damage which is not my idea of tank, normal monks and helwalkers need to take damage to get wounds which is also not my idea of tank. Nazpalca generate wounds when under the influence of drugs. Keep the wounds for their beneficial talents and do not spam abilities, but use them to keep buffs up ( thunderous blows, blade turning )

- Why single class nature godlike? Monk fists scale with power level, so single class is better. Nature godlike gives a bonus to power level when under the influence of an inspiration and fortuanatly monks can ( and should ) give themselves a lasting dex inspiration that can and should be upgraded.

- Nalpazca should have alchemy skill for maximum drug effect. This is also good when using potions like speed bonus, attack and defense bonus and healing.

- Fist are dual wielding, so get the two-weapon-style-talent. Use dual swords as second weapon set ( fists do crush damage, swords do slash/pierce damage). If you want to attack things in the distance, use the long pain.

- Regarding stats and what armor to use, ask somebody else, like Boeroer.

[Madscientist]

The caveat about Nalpazca is that, in the most recent stream, it was the first word out of Josh's mouth when he mused about subclasses that might need a balancing pass.  In a plentiful-drug environment, they're probably a little too good.  We should probably anticipate some weakening of drugs, the Alchemy skill, and/or Nalpazca abilities. 

 

Also, the most natural multiclass option for a Nalpazca is clearly a Priest of Wael.

 

If you play a perma stoned priest of Wael, you should talk like the malkavians in VtM: Bloodlines.

In that case I might even consider playing such a char, it was very funny.

[Skazz]

 

The caveat about Nalpazca is that, in the most recent stream, it was the first word out of Josh's mouth when he mused about subclasses that might need a balancing pass.  In a plentiful-drug environment, they're probably a little too good.  We should probably anticipate some weakening of drugs, the Alchemy skill, and/or Nalpazca abilities. 

 

Also, the most natural multiclass option for a Nalpazca is clearly a Priest of Wael.

 

If you play a perma stoned priest of Wael, you should talk like the malkavians in VtM: Bloodlines.

In that case I might even consider playing such a char, it was very funny.

 

 

Different dialogue options for Wael/Nalpazca that only make sense after a playthrough or two? Yes, please.

 

 

The caveat about Nalpazca is that, in the most recent stream, it was the first word out of Josh's mouth when he mused about subclasses that might need a balancing pass.  In a plentiful-drug environment, they're probably a little too good.  We should probably anticipate some weakening of drugs, the Alchemy skill, and/or Nalpazca abilities.

 

Was this the case in the beta? Or are we talking about a typical "endgame plenty" scenario?

 

I have a feeling that balancing a class based entirely on the access to an outside resource is going to be a headache. I just hope the Nalpazca doesn't get wrecked too hard in the process - to me, they're one of the more flavorful (and organic) subclass choices available.

Edited April 18, 2018 by Skazz

[Enoch]

 

The caveat about Nalpazca is that, in the most recent stream, it was the first word out of Josh's mouth when he mused about subclasses that might need a balancing pass.  In a plentiful-drug environment, they're probably a little too good.  We should probably anticipate some weakening of drugs, the Alchemy skill, and/or Nalpazca abilities.

 

Was this the case in the beta? Or are we talking about a typical "endgame plenty" scenario?

 

I have a feeling that balancing a class based entirely on the access to an outside resource is going to be a headache. I just hope the Nalpazca doesn't get wrecked too hard in the process - to me, they're one of the more flavorful (and organic) subclass choices available.

 

Drugs are a little thin on the ground in the Beta, but the Beta isn't really built to test the game economy.  (And even if it is, I've never played it without cheating in extra cash to hire and equip some custom-merc support.)  When you're not rationing your drug use much, I can confirm that the subclass is very powerful.

 

The fact that Josh highlighted the class as a little crazy leads me to believe that drug scarcity isn't a serious problem in the main game.  I would hope that resource-access isn't a serious part of the class balance process, and, based on reading Josh's writing on design stuff for a number of years, I doubt that it is.  (E.g., he's been critical in the past of things like how Energy Weapons worked in Fallout-- very powerful, but limited by the fact that they weren't really available until late-game, which kinda sucks for folks who tagged it at character creation.)  More likely, they'll do something like half the rate of Nalpazca "free" Wound-generation while high. 

Edited April 18, 2018 by Enoch

[nouser]

which of these multi-class are more effective ?  helwalker/troubadour,  monk/chanter (no subclass) or monk/troubadour?  helwaker seems fragile. also, is it too bad for a monlk to use heasvy armor (example:blackened armor)  + shield  and fists having low deterity (a monk tank)?  i dont think it would be too bad since fists cause as much damage as sabre and is a fast weapon. or is that incorrect and monk with low dexterity and heavy armor with shield will be innefective?