multiclasses feel underwhelming now

[dunehunter]

 

I hope multiclass combo can access to classes's ultimate abilities, like Twin Arrow for ranger, Sacred Immolation for paladin, Fury of Heart for Barb, and single class can access to upgraded version of these. Both will be happy in the end.

Single class would not be happy with that a. A slightly upgraded Heart of Fury would not be stronger than the multiclass benefits a barb would receive from pretty much any combination.

I’d say it depends on how they design the upgrades, some of the upgrade abilities are very good, for example the fighters discipline strike that grant u tier 3 perception inspiration. The original one is only tier 1.

[PIP-Clownboy]

 

 

I hope multiclass combo can access to classes's ultimate abilities, like Twin Arrow for ranger, Sacred Immolation for paladin, Fury of Heart for Barb, and single class can access to upgraded version of these. Both will be happy in the end.

Single class would not be happy with that a. A slightly upgraded Heart of Fury would not be stronger than the multiclass benefits a barb would receive from pretty much any combination.

I’d say it depends on how they design the upgrades, some of the upgrade abilities are very good, for example the fighters discipline strike that grant u tier 3 perception inspiration. The original one is only tier 1.

 

 

That isn't really interesting though and you could probably get that inspiration from somewhere else + getting an entire class worth of abilities to pick from. 

 

So that's not going to work unless you make super absurd versions of top tier abilities, which would probably a nightmare to code. Better off making new abilities exclusive to Single Class. 

 

Multiclass needs to be an actual choice with consequence 

[dunehunter]

 

 

 

I hope multiclass combo can access to classes's ultimate abilities, like Twin Arrow for ranger, Sacred Immolation for paladin, Fury of Heart for Barb, and single class can access to upgraded version of these. Both will be happy in the end.

Single class would not be happy with that a. A slightly upgraded Heart of Fury would not be stronger than the multiclass benefits a barb would receive from pretty much any combination.

I’d say it depends on how they design the upgrades, some of the upgrade abilities are very good, for example the fighters discipline strike that grant u tier 3 perception inspiration. The original one is only tier 1.

 

 

That isn't really interesting though and you could probably get that inspiration from somewhere else + getting an entire class worth of abilities to pick from. 

 

So that's not going to work unless you make super absurd versions of top tier abilities, which would probably a nightmare to code. Better off making new abilities exclusive to Single Class. 

 

Multiclass needs to be an actual choice with consequence 

 

 

Shrug I think you might be the minor here who think the disciplined strike not appealing...

[MadDemiurg]

I mean, disciplined strike might become redundant at high level party play if let's say a priest would have an aoe buff like that, but by the current lvl 1-9 standard it classifies as "OP as hell".

[PIP-Clownboy]

 

 

Shrug I think you might be the minor here who think the disciplined strike not appealing...

 

 

Never said it wasn't appealing, just not an interesting trade off compared to what multi gives you if you're letting them have access two sets of top tier abilities 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

with 2 points at the power level, the multiclasses feel underwhelming since the single classes get more staff quicker.

 

I think multiclasses should get 3 point at power level not 2 to off set the slow progression.

 

3 is not 4, but it's also not 2.

I agree with multi-classes seeming less powerful in comparison to singe-classes now, barring very good synergy and exacerbated by poor synergy, but I think 3 points every new powerlevel would be overkill. Honestly I think a better solution would be to go back to previous Beta's ability point structure, keep the changes spellcasters have with an extra spell per PL(add one for Wizards to make up for no default class ability like holy radiance or spirit shift), and put the more vanilla passives into something you can select with Proficiency points OR bring back Talents as a separate resource.

[Yosharian]

I don't really understand how the current Disciplined Strike upgrade is still intact and hasn't been utterly nerfed.  50% graze->hit + 50% hit->crit alone is incredible, but with 5 Per (i.e. 5 accuracy) as well?  And the alternative is an Intellect boost?  This baffles me.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I don't really understand how the current Disciplined Strike upgrade is still intact and hasn't been utterly nerfed.  50% graze->hit + 50% hit->crit alone is incredible, but with 5 Per (i.e. 5 accuracy) as well?  And the alternative is an Intellect boost?  This baffles me.

That's the standard for any 3rd tier Per inspiration, I assume it will exist from other sources. And unless they changed it, it's a +5 intellect boost and +1 PL, which for debuffs and dots could be a big benefit if PL actually applied to everything.

[MadDemiurg]

Tbh disciplined strike (both basic and upgrade) needs a huge nerfbat. Confident aim too. Dirty fighting on rogue is like what, 15% hit to crit? lol.

 

That been said it would instantly move fighter from top to trash tier, as most of their other actives are terrible and they lack interesting passives. So overall rebalancing is needed, current situation just gives you an OP autoattack bot with 0 build diversity.

Edited April 4, 2018 by MadDemiurg

[dunehunter]

Tbh disciplined strike (both basic and upgrade) needs a huge nerfbat. Confident aim too. Dirty fighting on rogue is like what, 15% hit to crit? lol.

 

That been said it would instantly move fighter from top to trash tier, as most of their other actives are terrible and they lack interesting passives. So overall rebalancing is needed, current situation just gives you an OP autoattack bot with 0 build diversity.

 

Dirty fighting is 10% of hit convert to crit

 

So in pratice it increases crit rate by 5%

[theBalthazar]

In fact, the big problem is :

 

If you nerf Fighter like 25 % of hit to crit. He become a big poop.

 

Except if we consider devoted. Fighter have two really "+" : 1) cleave stance 2) Disciplined strike.

 

If you nerf one of these abilities, Obsidian kill the contract with single target. Indead cleave is all arround but only if you kill someone.

 

It is normal that a globally single target do more damage in his niche.

 

That's why Rogue with 10 % of dirty fighty is big a lol actually. Ranger and Rogue, big loser of BB3-4.

 

When Obsidian put 5 % hit to crit in the last abilitie. = 2.5 %

 

So if in the head of obsidian he want to increase by 5 real %. It must useful to up until 10 % like said Dunehunter.

 

That's also why 5 % of one ability of paladin is very bad. 2.5 % of critical of all party members. WTF. Virtually at the cost of 2 abilities points. Laughable.

 

In my head the perfect balancing is :

 

50 % Hit to crit DISCIPLINED STRIKE Fighter. Cost : 1 Power source. 2 abilities points

40 % Hit to crit BERSERKER FRENZY Barbarian. Cost : 1 Power source (Frenzy) + Confused.

25 % Hit to crit DIRTY FIGHTING Rogue. Cost : Passive ability.

10 % Hit to crit. ZEALOUS FOCUS Paladin. Cost : Passive on all team. 2 abilities points

10 % Hit to crit UNCANNY LUCK. Cost : Passive on only one guy.

 

Personnally, I have never take Zealous focus at 5 %. Pure loss atm. (And with bad stacking rules of Obsidian, that's become useless) If it is 10 % and stack... I can start to think of it. Not crazy but OK.

Edited April 4, 2018 by theBalthazar

[dunehunter]

In fact, the big problem is :

 

If you nerf Fighter like 25 % of hit to crit. He become a big poop.

 

Except if we consider devoted. Fighter have two really "+" : 1) cleave stance 2) Disciplined strike.

 

If you nerf one of these abilities, Obsidian kill the contract with single target. Indead cleave is all arround but only if you kill someone.

 

It is normal that a globally single target do more damage in his niche.

 

That's why Rogue with 10 % of dirty fighty is big a lol actually. Ranger and Rogue, big loser of BB3-4.

 

When Obsidian put 5 % hit to crit in the last abilitie. = 2.5 %

 

So if in the head of obsidian he want to increase by 5 real %. It must useful to up until 10 % like said Dunehunter.

 

That's also why 5 % of one ability of paladin is very bad. 2.5 % of critical of all party members. WTF. Virtually at the cost of 2 abilities points. Laughable.

 

In my head the perfect balancing is :

 

50 % Hit to crit DISCIPLINED STRIKE Fighter. Cost : 1 Power source. 2 abilities points

40 % Hit to crit BERSERKER FRENZY Barbarian. Cost : 1 Power source (Frenzy) + Confused.

25 % Hit to crit DIRTY FIGHTING Rogue. Cost : Passive ability.

10 % Hit to crit. ZEALOUS FOCUS Paladin. Cost : Passive on all team. 2 abilities points

10 % Hit to crit UNCANNY LUCK. Cost : Passive on only one guy.

 

Personnally, I have never take Zealous focus at 5 %. Pure loss atm. (And with bad stacking rules of Obsidian, that's become useless) If it is 10 % and stack... I can start to think of it. Not crazy but OK.

 

Yeah totally agree with your post, the point cost should reward with real benefit, something like 5% hit to crit convert for the team is meh, same as dirty fight, which is so bad compare to disciplined strike.

 

Similarly, cipher get +20% damage with his soul whip passive, cost 1 point; Sworn enemy gives you +20% damage to one enemy, cost 1 point and 1 zealot, this is really bad deal and dunno who gonna take it anymore now.

Edited April 4, 2018 by dunehunter

[MadDemiurg]

Well, I don't want class abilities to be 100% equivalent in power because the design should be asymmetric and it's ok for fighter to have better hit/crit ratio while rogue has better raw damage (Even tho the primary fighter role is "defender" so he really shouldn't match rogue in dps) but something like 50% graze to hit or hit to crit is just too much for 1 ability imo.

 

The fact that cleave and disciplined strike are the only 2 good things about fighter(which I mostly agree with) says a lot about internal class balance. Would you ever want to spend discipline on knockdown? Hell no. If it was on at least wounding shot level of power, then probably.

Edited April 4, 2018 by MadDemiurg

[theBalthazar]

All depend of degree of asymetric.

 

In POE1. You have one character for one class. So, balancing is important but slighty less than here.

 

Why ? Because you compare not class VS class.

 

But Classx2 VS Single class

or

Class x2 VS Class x2

 

PLUS, each level you can invest in passive OR active ability with the same "money".

 

So, if you haven't a symetric gameplay, you can effectively legitmate :

 

Fast Runner : +15 % Stride +5 Defense when disengaging One Ability point.

VS

Fighter Stances : 3 differents stances among +attacks on kill and +5 accuracy against solo foes. One Ability point.

 

Hard choice... : p

Edited April 4, 2018 by theBalthazar

[Wormerine]

I have a question: when we discuss usefulness of a class why do we always talk about DPS? Like only DPS? How about utility? Mobility? Flexibility?

[theBalthazar]

Because DPS is the fastest way to finish a battle and contain a problem.

 

Pick up all "bad" passive abilities and try. See the difference in effectiveness. It is a good tool to move faster. But absolutely not a must when you are in melee. Same for disengaging. I disengaging 1 % of time and often there is a death behind. Because run is a bad idea. You reload and found a better strat.

 

So yes, it is obvious : few abilities are completely useless and serve nothing. Except newbie (And even...) can make a mistake and take this. So newbie trap or create an illusion of choice. But it is not a choice.

 

A true choice : (abilities doesn't exist)

 

Hero's might : +15 % of Might under 50 % of health.

OR

Velocity of champions : +10 % of recovery when full health.

 

HERE. You have uniques abilities. WITH a true choice. In Line 2 of figther for example.

 

All Unique Abilities are often a true choice. Retribution, fighter stances, barbaric blow etc...

Edited April 4, 2018 by theBalthazar

[MadDemiurg]

I don't really agree that only the dps abilities are good, but let's say fast runner is both weak and gimmicky as you most likely won't be needing it unless you have a kite solo build.

 

Stuff like +deflection/resists, +armor etc is universally good, although the vanilla +10 to save X perks are meh, but let's say pala/fighter can get +20 vs all afflictions with 2 points, this is pretty good.

 

Even pure utility talents like deep pockets can be pretty good depending on power of available consumables. Well, in PoE1 consumables were just too "tryhard" for a party, but for TCS solo this was a really good pick.

 

Thing is, a lot of the abilities are just trash, many dps ones too (see dirty fighting).

Edited April 4, 2018 by MadDemiurg

[theBalthazar]

One solution is to put a good bonus with trash bonus.

 

Like 

 

+15 % Stride -5 % of recovery

Or

+10 defense when disengaging -40 % damage when disengaging.

 

+1 engagement and +5 in fortitude and deflection.

 

ETC ETC...

 

Always try to catch a fish.

[CENIC]

I have a question: when we discuss usefulness of a class why do we always talk about DPS? Like only DPS? How about utility? Mobility? Flexibility?

Minmaxers. DPS is all that matters on high difficulty levels/solo play. Kill everything before anything can touch you.

[MadDemiurg]

 

I have a question: when we discuss usefulness of a class why do we always talk about DPS? Like only DPS? How about utility? Mobility? Flexibility?

Minmaxers. DPS is all that matters on high difficulty levels/solo play. Kill everything before anything can touch you.

 

 

Not really. Extreme tanking is actually the easiest and the most consistent way to solo PoTD in these games. You want dps too but if you can't tank no amount of dps will usually save you. Excluding the shadowing beyond rogue that skips like half the content.

Edited April 4, 2018 by MadDemiurg