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Two handed style seems weak


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#1
kmbogd

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I've started making some computations with respect to how efficient different melee weapons and weapon styles are. I've taken into account the theoretical attack times and recovery times (the base values mentioned in the GUI) and not actual empirical determinations based on counting frames (I believe that MaxQuest has determined that the theoretical base values are not exactly what he tested directly, I'm not sure if this has been rectified in beta version 4). In any case, in my model it looks like two-handed weapons are severely lacking when compared to dual welding. Here is a result of my findings based on a character with 10 Dex and 10 Might that is equipped with heavy armor (+55% recovery time). When using a two-handed weapon the two-handed style was assumed, similarly when using two weapons the two-weapon style was assumed. This table considers only hits (no other attack resolution option) and the weapon damage assumes the average of the min and max value. No other abilities have been considered (weapon specialization, soul whip etc.). I should mention that the quality of the weapons is "fine", which seems to be the standard setup in this beta build.

 

It looks like dual welding sabre wins at most enemy AR's, dual welding stiletto's looks optimal at 10-12 enemy AR's.

 

In my opinion the damage output of the two-handed weapons should be increased to make it on par with dual welding.

 

Also the quarterstaff seems to be particularly good with respect to some other two-handed weapons as it's the only one for which the GUI states that it has an attack time of 0.5s instead of 0.7s like the others.

 

 

The green lines represent the damage. For the one-hand weapons, the yellow line represents the DPS when dual welding. The white lines represent the DPS for the case when a single weapon is used (only possibility for two-handed weapons).

 

In some other comparisons that I performed, it looks like might is slightly more beneficial than dexterity in terms of melee DPS: 20 Might,10Dex is looking a bit better than 10Might,20Dex. There were some situations where something in the middle was optimal but still more might than dex: for example in the case of sabres with heavy armor I think the optimal  is 17 might and 13 dex.

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Edited by kmbogd, 12 April 2018 - 12:56 PM.

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#2
djinnxy

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Before the critical hit nerfs I ran an assassin/bleak walker through. Two handed was the way to go for assassinate with flames of devotion. I haven't tried it post nerf but the damage was absolutely monstrous prior to the update.



#3
fortuntek

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I suspect this this will end up much like PoE1 with dual sabers far outstripping other options throughout the course of the game. That said, I've been pleased with single hit damage two handed can put out using abilities, even without heavily optimizing. My first beta run was Fighter/Paladin (more to recreate my first playthrough, not min/maxed at all) and Flames of Devotion with an Estoc and Sworn Enemy could hit for like 130+ dmg. Great for quickly taking down enemies, but will fall waaay behind in total damage over time with auto attack. So not great, but far from useless.

#4
George_Truman

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In PoE1 two handers surpass dual wielding about midway I think. You can hit zero recovery with non-speed 2handers at the end of whitemarch1 and that is significantly stronger than zero recovery dual wielding (not taking into account monk fists and full attack abilities). Dual wielding made hitting zero recovery easier, but you can't get faster than 0 recovery so you could reach the same dps with 1hander/shield. Are you sure that the situation here is not similar? 



#5
dunehunter

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Before the critical hit nerfs I ran an assassin/bleak walker through. Two handed was the way to go for assassinate with flames of devotion. I haven't tried it post nerf but the damage was absolutely monstrous prior to the update.


The problem with backstabbing is that you trade time for burst damage. Your total DPS is not increased a lot. You need to waste 3 sec to turn into invisible and this is DPS loses. I’m not sure how much damage you do more with it. It’s like summon weapon, u need to prepare it and the gain must compensate the time loss.

Shadowing beyond is good but 3 guile cost is meh...

And backstabbing + FoD with dual Sabre is not behind great sword at all, though the initial strike is weaker, but since FoD is full attack ability so the total damage is pretty close, but with lower recovery time.

Edited by dunehunter, 01 April 2018 - 07:43 PM.


#6
dunehunter

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The problem with two handed style is the same problem for all damage bonus because they are all flat additive bonus, which makes them much weaker when u already have high damage bonus.

#7
djinnxy

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Prior to the nerfs to crit damage and assassinate the highest damage I had on multiple builds at the end of the beta demo was on an assassin/bleak walker (running classic and all encounters @ level). Since the update I haven't bothered trying one again. With greatsword you could one shot 300. The titan would go down in one or 2 hits. Other fights you could one shot the 2 toughest mobs while your party cleaned up the trash. 



#8
Boeroer

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Has anyone tested if dual welding gets the +1 PEN bonus from Scion of Flame? Or is it Heart of the Storm? ;)

I think that two handers should have higher PEN in general.

Edited by Boeroer, 01 April 2018 - 08:33 PM.

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#9
Dr <3

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I can garantuee that an assassin / bleack walker can still do otrageous amount of dmg with a greatsword.

Combat start --> smoke cloud --> +50% assassinate, +50% sneack attack, + 150% backstab, +30% overpenetration ( very often)+ 15% 2h style +25% crit ( very often) --> all multiplied x1,3 ( max str) --> on top are calculated lashes ( all total dmg x 0,3 ( fire) / x0,2 ( acid)

Gibs everywhere after most hit/crits ( 200+ dmg), someone can survive to grazes

#10
theBalthazar

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Absolutely not.

 

If 2 handed is already behind...

 

Bottleneck effect (Overkill) + Additive damage (Benefit to 2 weapons) + 2 sources of bonuses (Two weapons)

 

Theses three concept put 2 handed much more behind than only... "behind".

 

So, there is always a big problem with that visibly... Even at the start of the game, 2 weapons are first, by far.

 

Eventually I can understand a predominance at the end of the game. But from the start, this is weird.

 

Don't forget all bonuses from gear. Perhaps there are a majority of multiplicative bonuses, but we don't know. If there is +1 might by weapon, it is already a better double bonus. Except if Obsidian put better bonus at 2 handed.


Edited by theBalthazar, 01 April 2018 - 11:18 PM.


#11
M4xw0lf

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I think that two handers should have higher PEN in general.

Yes. Even with the corresponding Cipher passive, my level 7 Witch has Pen 8 with a fine greatsword, while the premade mercenary companions are all sporting somethin like 9-10 with their puny one-handed weapons. It just feels wrong. Add the incredibly long recovery time, and two handers are behind on DPS, and even worse, they are no fun. Watching my PC swinging his sword twice every 10 seconds while missing one of those swings and while getting battered by enemies with twice the attack speed is rather frustrating.



#12
JerekKruger

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In PoE1 two handers surpass dual wielding about midway I think. You can hit zero recovery with non-speed 2handers at the end of whitemarch1 and that is significantly stronger than zero recovery dual wielding (not taking into account monk fists and full attack abilities). Dual wielding made hitting zero recovery easier, but you can't get faster than 0 recovery so you could reach the same dps with 1hander/shield. Are you sure that the situation here is not similar? 

 

Depends. If your character mostly relies on auto-attacks this is true, but if you have access to lots of full attacks (the Monk for example) then dual wielding is still better. 


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#13
kmbogd

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The point I wanted to make is not the fact that one cannot reach big amounts of damage with certain setups but the fact that when compared to the dual wield version of the setup, two-handers seem to be outmatched in terms of DPS more often than not. So choosing a two-handed weapon looks sub-optimal in the general case. The way I see it, I would like two-handers to be particularly better DPS wise against high enemy AR, with dual welding being better DPS wise against low/medium AR.


Edited by kmbogd, 02 April 2018 - 01:01 AM.


#14
theBalthazar

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If we speak frankly guys...

 

Most of time, SEE your own battle :

 

- 80 % of Full damage. (Yes... you use your power source... simply)

- 80 % of trash mob so overkill increase. ~10 % of DPS loss (See MaxQuest post. More you have HP, less there are bottleneck effect.)

 

So in fact, globally 2 weapons is always better. Only exception, few primary attack with high effect.



#15
dunehunter

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With plate armor my 2h fighter has 6 sec recovery time zzz, dw is like 3.5 sec or so. Please show some loves to 2h weapons devs :)



#16
Boeroer

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The only thing that made 2-handers awesome in PoE (without drinking potions of DaoM the whole day) - known as "Blood Thirst" - was taken away and converted into that not very useful upgrade of Barbaric Blow. :(


Edited by Boeroer, 07 April 2018 - 12:01 AM.

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#17
dunehunter

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Between two swings my gunner already shoot and reload twice...  :facepalm:



#18
Boeroer

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Yeah but that's due to the bug that attack speed mods also reduce reloading time in beta4 while armor penalty doesn't.  



#19
dunehunter

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Any way the 2h weapons in DF is a failure, even if the devs double 2h's damage, it's still feels unbearably slow. I'd rather use DW anyway. Also heavy one handed + light one handed is the best combo since you can use full attack abilities with light weapon recovery = Awesome.

 

You might want to use 2h for Bleakwalker/Assassin, but I will still use DW for the combo because I don't want to wait 5-6 second after backstabbing and sabre's damage is ususally enough to kill the mob, you don't really need greatsword for backstabbing.


Edited by dunehunter, 07 April 2018 - 12:30 AM.


#20
M4xw0lf

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After fiddling with the beta for 18 hours now, I love the great sword with its modal on a Witch. It's not viable for solo because you simply won't hit anything even with the miss to graze gauntlets, but with buffs from your support guys, it dishes out huge amounts of damage. With soul annihilation every second hit is in the region of 100-200 damage, while the autoattacks to charge focus still deal 60-70 damage. Recovery is good when wearing only leather armor, and triggering bloodlust.

Didn't bother with any of the other two handers, they probably still suck. Will try dual wielding next, to get a comparison.


Edited by M4xw0lf, 07 April 2018 - 02:02 AM.





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