Politics Thread: Edge of Seventeen

[Amentep]

It seems to me the moral of the story is if the Tennessee Legislature wants to prevent local municipalities from doing things, they need to craft better laws. 

[smjjames]

There's a statue of Cromwell in Westminster.

 

What does that have to do with the American Civil War? Completely different time, place, and circumstance.

 

 

 

And 'the time he lived in' is often the context that such statues are placed in, plus the fact that a great many of them were erected many decades, almost a hundred years in some cases, after the Civil War ended.

 

Statues of confederate soldiers are always going to be controversial, especially when white supremacists keep latching onto them and ignoring the real historical context.

Exactly. That is the problem. When you look at Forest's place in history I would not have picked him for a statue. I can name four, maybe five Confederate figures that were worthy of being memorialized. I unless you've been reading Shelby Foote's work there a good chance you've never heard of most of them.

 

 

Out of curiosity, which ones would you name?

[Guard Dog]

I didn't think I was defending him Grom. I was just pointing out he's not what anyone seems to think he was. I wouldn't have ordered a statue of him. There is nothing about him I find admirable. And yes he didn't just lie about his role in the Klan he lied to Congress about it. He wasn't evil, he wasn't good. And there were act of savagery enough to choke a maggot on a gut wagon all around done by both sides. I go to work near Fort Pillow every day so yes I know all about it. The man it's named for lost the war in the west single handedly at Ft. Donaldon due to incompetence and IMO made all of the blood shed in Virginia, Maryland, and Pennsylvania pointless. The CSA lost the Mississippi and the Tennessee river completely after that and, again IMO, had no path to victory other than the North getting weary of it.

 

Sherman had enough deaths on his hands his own army would have hanged him if it happened today. The massacre in Lawrence KS was a response to two separate massacres of Missouri civilians, the one at Osceola left the town burned and all of them dead . That whole "border war" was a really nasty business. The Iowa 15th Cavalry rounded up all the women and children of men suspected of fighting in the Confederate Army in West Tennessee and sent them to a prison in St. Louis. Most of them starved to death there. And Nueces the Confederate irregulars lined up and murdered every immigrant in the town. There were no saints. And no one had a monopoly on brutality.

 

Like I said, there are only a handful of people who gained any credit in that whole mess and sadly none of them are having their statues fought over right now.

[Zoraptor]

 

There's a statue of Cromwell in Westminster.

 

What does that have to do with the American Civil War? Completely different time, place, and circumstance.

 

Not really, if you're talking about memorials to people with... questionable morality and whether they should be removed or not. It's probably one of HD's more immediately relevant contributions.

 

Indeed, Cromwell is a lot, lot worse than Forrest. Cromwell alone turns the Parliamentarians from good guys to bad guys, because no matter how much people in theory may love the idea of parliamentary supremacy you cannot separate that from what was actually got instead- dictatorial mass murdering genocidal brutality dressed up in the veneer of religion and extraordinary self righteousness. He's the british Mullah Muhammed Omar, yet still get fetishised by, frankly, morons who put the 'fought for parliament' part above anything else and ignore that he was so committed to Parliament that he abolished it.

 

At least people with a hard on for Churchill can point to his political/ inspirational personal conduct in WW2 to offset all the racism, advocacy of gassing arabs, consistently moronic military plans and starving millions of Indians; Cromwell has the same redeeming features as Iosef Dugashvili, minus literally fighting Hitler.

[smjjames]

If you're talking about statues of people with questionable morals, then yeah, otherwises completely different time, place, and circumstance.

[Guard Dog]

smjames if it were up to me these are probably the only confederates I'd honor:

 

• Richard Rowland Kirkland
• Jack Hinson
• James Longstreet
• John Moesby
• Raphael Painpare
• James Keelan

 

I expect you've probably heard of Longstreet but I'd be surprised indeed if you know any of the rest.

Edited April 18, 2018 by Guard Dog

[smjjames]

I think I've heard of James Longstreet somewhere, seems familiar for some reason.... *looks at wiki* Oh yeah, he was one of the more prominent Confederate generals. Wiki doesn't say anything about his stance on slavery though.

 

Haven't heard of the rest and the last two aren't even in wikipedia.

[Guard Dog]

If you want to know about Longstreet you should hear from the man himself: If you were closer I'd loan you my copy.

 

 

No one on my list owned or dealt with slaves. But that is not why they are on my list. Valor and virtue, even in a bad cause, are worth honoring. Soldiers don't start wars.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

And they have gone on to serve the whole "it wasn't about slavery" narrative that is as pernicious as it is wrong. 

 

wait what

[Guard Dog]

 

And they have gone on to serve the whole "it wasn't about slavery" narrative that is as pernicious as it is wrong. 

 

wait what

 

Do you eve read the posts I write?

[Guard Dog]

Indulge me for a moment here. Suppose the United States were to attack Canada? Just suppose it started with militia forces in Buffalo attacking Hamilton with artillery. There are a few battles back and forth before the US invades into Qubec and loses near Montreal. The US retreats followed by the Canadian Army. They invade. Now they are in your state, atrocities real and rumored such as the ones I posted earlier are happening in places near you. And now they are near your town. Does it matter to you that the US was wrong to start the war? Does it matter to you Canada's cause is morally justified? I'd say no. Because now you have a home and family to defend against a foreign enemy coming to kill and take them. You don't have transportation. You have nowhere to flee to. Your option are to fight, be executed, or surrender and collaborate and still likely be executed. And even if that does not happen you are occupied and your life and all you have are not safe. What would you do? The soldiers who fought the war, especially those who fought on their home soil don't deserve to be painted with the same brush as Jefferson Davis, Alexander Stephens, etc. 

[Orogun01]

If you want to know about Longstreet you should hear from the man himself: If you were closer I'd loan you my copy.

 

 

No one on my list owned or dealt with slaves. But that is not why they are on my list. Valor and virtue, even in a bad cause, are worth honoring. Soldiers don't start wars.

Beautiful sentiment but we still Nazis to be a caricature in order to sell Zionism. You understand don't you.

[Bartimaeus]

It's not like every lowly German soldier was prosecuted for Nazism-related crimes in the wake of World War II, though. Caricatures of Nazi SS officers and the such aren't quite the same as vilifying the common soldier who was essentially pressed into service and scared of the war and dying the same as any Allied soldier, or the higher ups who only concerned themselves with the war itself (of which there were some, such as Erwin Rommel).

Edited April 18, 2018 by Bartimaeus

[Valsuelm]

@Gromnir: I just don't have the energy to get pulled into the cesspool that is conversating with you. My bad.

 

 

He's one of only two people I've ignored on this forum, or any forum ever for that matter....

[Valsuelm]

smjames if it were up to me these are probably the only confederates I'd honor:

 

• Richard Rowland Kirkland
• Jack Hinson
• James Longstreet
• John Moesby
• Raphael Painpare
• James Keelan

 

I expect you've probably heard of Longstreet but I'd be surprised indeed if you know any of the rest.

 

Your issues with others?

 

[smjjames]

 

smjames if it were up to me these are probably the only confederates I'd honor:

 

• Richard Rowland Kirkland
• Jack Hinson
• James Longstreet
• John Moesby
• Raphael Painpare
• James Keelan

 

I expect you've probably heard of Longstreet but I'd be surprised indeed if you know any of the rest.

 

Your issues with others?

 

 

 

He explained it in his next post, the only one on that list who was even a major figure, or Brass, was Gen. Longstreet. Also, while looking at wikipedia, John Mosby (actual spelling) did own a slave in NYC who he sent money to, but he personally didn't like it. Pretty much comes off as conflicted about the whole thing.

 

Also have to remember that this was in an era where being loyal to your state was a much bigger deal than being loyal to your country.

[ShadySands]

 

And they have gone on to serve the whole "it wasn't about slavery" narrative that is as pernicious as it is wrong. 

 

wait what

 

How does the saying go? Something like...

 

People who know nothing about the civil war think it was about slavery, people who know a little bit about it think it was about state's rights, and people who know a lot about it know it was about slavery

 

Anyways, for me it was about saving my friend Bucky

[Guard Dog]

 

 

smjames if it were up to me these are probably the only confederates I'd honor:

 

• Richard Rowland Kirkland
• Jack Hinson
• James Longstreet
• John Moesby
• Raphael Painpare
• James Keelan

 

I expect you've probably heard of Longstreet but I'd be surprised indeed if you know any of the rest.

 

Your issues with others?

 

 

 

He explained it in his next post, the only one on that list who was even a major figure, or Brass, was Gen. Longstreet. Also, while looking at wikipedia, John Mosby (actual spelling) did own a slave in NYC who he sent money to, but he personally didn't like it. Pretty much comes off as conflicted about the whole thing.

 

Also have to remember that this was in an era where being loyal to your state was a much bigger deal than being loyal to your country.

 

Kirkland, if you read his story, should be easy to see why he deserved to be mentioned. Longstreet objected to secession but could,never take up arms against his home & "kin and kind" as they said back then. I think it's fortunate Lee was placed in overall command and not Jackson or Longstreet. Lee was a good leader, and even a good general. But his flaw is he was a man out of time. He did no appreciate or understand the way warfare had changed during the years he was serving in the US Army in Texas. He still kept tactics learned in West Point and the Mexican war. He did not appreciate the greater range and accuracy of the rifled musket the Union was using. Neither Jackson nor Longstreet would have ordered the attack on the third day at Gettysburg. Longstreet was actually there and begged him not to do it. The CSA was broken that day. The rest was just a matter of time. If you ever go to Gettysburg and stand on Seminary Ridge and look over that field at the low point between Big Round Top and Cemetery Hill you'd wonder what he was thinking too.

 

Moesby was a good leader and fighter. Brave but not a savage. Tough but not cruel. I haven't read one instance of anything he did that could be called an atrocity.

 

Jack Hinson was a pro-Union southerner who was actually friends with Grant who even stayed in Hinson's home when the Union occupied the "land between the rivers" after the battle of Fort Donaldson. After Grant moved east the occupation was taken over by the 15th Iowa under the command of a man named William Belknap. Despite his reputation after the war he thought nothing of murdering southerners even suspected of being Confederate sympathizers. One of his commanders murdered Hinson's teen age sons and placed their heads on Hinson's gatepost with orders to leave them there of the whole family will be hanged. Hinson sent his family to Kentucky, burned down his house and took his rifle and went to the hills. For the next three years we waged a one man war against the Union. The US Army assigned three whole regiments to track him down and they could not do it. There is an excellent book about him: Jack Hinson's One Man War

 

Raphael Painper was an artillery officer on convalescence in Sumter SC when scouts reported that some 2600 enemy troops were advancing on Sumter. Painpare volunteered to command one of two cannons with a Southern force of 154 defenders of old men, teenage boys and local militia. Some of the locals believed it to be hopeless. Lieutenant Painpare stepped up and told them "men your home is in Sumter. My home is in Louisiana, but I propose to fight my gun if anyone will help me.” One of the two guns was lost early. Painpare and the local defenders held the Federals off for almost a whole day After two enemy regiments flanked the defenders, Painpare ordered his men to take cover, as Painpare manned his cannon alone, firing on the enemy. Despite a federal officer’s call to “spare that man, don’t fire at him, he is too brave to die,” Painpare was already morally wounded.

 

James Keelan was a 17 year old private in a Kentucky Volunteer Rifle regiment. He'd been left alone to guard a bridge near Strawberry Fields KY. After sunset a platoon of 19 Federal soldiers approached the bridge with orders to burn it and trap the Confederates on the wrong side of the river. He held them off single handedly  and killed many of them. His relief found him the next day next to a pile of dead enemy and near death himself, with two sabre wounds, a bayonet wound and he'd been shot once. That tough SOB lived all the way into the 1920's.

[Gromnir]

I didn't think I was defending him Grom. I was just pointing out he's not what anyone seems to think he was.

 

will agree most don't know nbf, 'cause if they did, they would be even more furious.  am not sure what is gd's definition o' evil, but if hell exists and he ain't in it, we would be shocked... and the moral relativism stuff is water of a duck's back from our pov.  but ________ was a bad man too? *snort* not wholly evil?  a man o' his times? and "renounce" ain't actual accurate 'cause as Gromnir stated, nbf claimed he were never part o' the organization which he helped found and led during its formative years. can't renounce something you were never part o'.

 

so yeah, dig up his bones and castigate him.  is vital we remember and understand folks like nbf.  it is too bad most do not know.  he were a brilliant cavalry man and brave beyond doubt.  did he like puppies?  perhaps.  who doesn't like puppies?  tell us he was good to his mother and were dedicated to his church?  fine.  we need remember how brave and formidable men is capable o' the kinda villany which has left an indelible stain 'pon this nation which more than 100 years has failed to erase.  it is unfortunate most don't know nbf, 'cause he is exact the kinda "mistakes of the past" which history is meant to help prevent us from repeating.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Hurlshort]

 

@Gromnir: I just don't have the energy to get pulled into the cesspool that is conversating with you. My bad.

 

He's one of only two people I've ignored on this forum, or any forum ever for that matter....

Am I number 2?

[Zoraptor]

Longstreet was actually there and begged him not to do it. The CSA was broken that day. The rest was just a matter of time. If you ever go to Gettysburg and stand on Seminary Ridge and look over that field at the low point between Big Round Top and Cemetery Hill you'd wonder what he was thinking too.

Longstreet also had an alternative plan for day 2 of Gettysburg that would probably, with hindsight, have been better than what Lee delivered.

 

To be fair to Lee, I always thought his conduct at Gettysburg was based on a fairly accurate interpretation of strategic reality- the Confederacy was going to lose unless they managed a spectacular victory; so he tried far too hard to get them that victory. Napoleon made almost exactly the same mistake as Picket's Charge at Waterloo for the same general reason.

[ShadySands]

 

 

@Gromnir: I just don't have the energy to get pulled into the cesspool that is conversating with you. My bad.

He's one of only two people I've ignored on this forum, or any forum ever for that matter....

Am I number 2?

 

Who does number 2 work for?

Edited April 19, 2018 by ShadySands

[Bartimaeus]

No, who's on second.

[ShadySands]

What's on second

Hu is on first
 

Edited April 19, 2018 by ShadySands

[Chilloutman]

We should destroy all greek statues, they got slaves back then!