The Political Quinceañera Thread

[Chilloutman]

jesus I got goose bumps, its like I heard something like that before, and from German socialist as well...

 

[injurai]

Let me just sign up for a few German language classes.

[Chilloutman]

 

Depending on your definition of collaboration, 'such people' could number in the millions.

Poland swept plenty of ugly history under the rug and the last thing we need is to start rewriting it.

Yes, Poland was responsible for WWII. We invited the peaceful corps of Nazi Germany on false pretenses, we locked them in the death camps and dressed in their uniforms we waged war wide and far.

We made up the attack, faked our government in exile, fabricated our involvement in Allies armies and fictionalized polish underground struggle.

You got us skipper, there is no more place under the rug. 

I take it that a phrase "plenty of ugly history" is all you can muster and it would be pointless to ask for specifics which you have none.

 

I still fail to see how this law improves the international Polish image or prevents anyone other than Poles (especially Israel, as mentioned by Sharp_One, who I thought had good relations with Poland) from saying these things.

 

Am I missing something here?

The law would obligate Institute of National Remembrance to track and take legal actions against people/organizations/countries that violate said laws using International institutions and treaties. It wouldn't be 100% enforceable of course, but it's something.

 

 

to be fair you tried to attack us, didn't worked well for you guys huh?

[Pidesco]

[Bartimaeus]

@Pidesco: Coincidentally, the idea for Fox News was originally coined in 1970 by Roger Ailes during the Nixon presidency when he was "media consultant" to the president. Discovered by Gawker (yuck) in old memos in the Nixon Presidential Library: https://web.archive.org/web/20111016200523/http://gawker.com/5814150

 

 

Originally envisioned as sort of state-run, pro-GOP news. Roger Ailes would eventually go on to help create Fox News, becoming its first CEO (starting the day it officially launched) until his resignation in 2016 as a result of a sexual harassment scandal.

Edited February 8, 2018 by Bartimaeus

[pmp10]

I take it that a phrase "plenty of ugly history" is all you can muster and it would be pointless to ask for specifics which you have none.

From the before mentioned invasion of Vilnius and Czech lands to the polonization policies in the east.

And that's before we even get to the topic of internment camps, pacifications and eventual reprisals during the war.

Or of the pervasive antisemitism that's still going strong and is used as an excuse to justify that 'Polish death camps' nonsense.

 

I could go on but the point is that Poland needs an honest look at it's history not western-style denial and shouting-down of anyone who disagrees.

[Chilloutman]

 

 

 

Depending on your definition of collaboration, 'such people' could number in the millions.

Poland swept plenty of ugly history under the rug and the last thing we need is to start rewriting it.

Yes, Poland was responsible for WWII. We invited the peaceful corps of Nazi Germany on false pretenses, we locked them in the death camps and dressed in their uniforms we waged war wide and far.

We made up the attack, faked our government in exile, fabricated our involvement in Allies armies and fictionalized polish underground struggle.

You got us skipper, there is no more place under the rug. 

I take it that a phrase "plenty of ugly history" is all you can muster and it would be pointless to ask for specifics which you have none.

 

I still fail to see how this law improves the international Polish image or prevents anyone other than Poles (especially Israel, as mentioned by Sharp_One, who I thought had good relations with Poland) from saying these things.

 

Am I missing something here?

The law would obligate Institute of National Remembrance to track and take legal actions against people/organizations/countries that violate said laws using International institutions and treaties. It wouldn't be 100% enforceable of course, but it's something.

 

 

to be fair you tried to attack us, didn't worked well for you guys huh?

 

That's not true we never did nothing wrong. You are lying and we will sue you 

 

 

[redneckdevil]

http://thefederalist.com/2018/02/08/how-the-media-buried-two-huge-fbi-stories-yesterday/

 

Dunno if "decent" source of news

[Bartimaeus]

The first point about the dossier has probably been debunked already, based on the opinions of various reporters who looked at the specific wording of the Nunes memo. The memo said information that was in the dossier was used, but not the dossier itself. A weasely way of saying that information from another source that also happened to be in the dossier was used. I'm pretty that's one of the clarifications that we'd see in the release of the Democrat memo.

 

For the second point, Obama had definitely been briefed on the Russian investigation - he had begged Mitch McConnell (Senate Majority Leader) to go public with him on it either before the primaries or as they were ongoing (I don't remember which), to try to nip it in the bud, but McConnell refused. Also, it's really weird that Strzok keeps getting painted as this super anti-Trump guy...when he was the one that convinced Comey to re-open the Clinton case, leading to that infamous Comey press meeting days before the election announcing exactly that. Strzok did not appear to like either candidates, which probably just means he had a good head on his shoulders. Except for that whole cheating on his wife with another member of the FBI while apparently writing some really stupid texts - that stuff seems rather contradictory to that point.

 

(P.S. I don't think the Federalist is considered a very good source of news. It's not utterly terrible along the lines of breitbart, though.)

Edited February 9, 2018 by Bartimaeus

[Zoraptor]

 

I take it that a phrase "plenty of ugly history" is all you can muster and it would be pointless to ask for specifics which you have none.

From the before mentioned invasion of Vilnius and Czech lands to the polonization policies in the east.

And that's before we even get to the topic of internment camps, pacifications and eventual reprisals during the war.

Or of the pervasive antisemitism that's still going strong and is used as an excuse to justify that 'Polish death camps' nonsense.

 

I could go on but the point is that Poland needs an honest look at it's history not western-style denial and shouting-down of anyone who disagrees.

 

 

Yeah they did most of that, but to iterate, there really wasn't pervasive anti semitism in Poland, since people are likely to reflexively disagree with Sharpie. Nationalism, sure, and at times that was as unpleasant in Poland as in most places hence inter war Poland's behaviour was not always the model of restraint, shall we say. But, most of the stories about Polish anti semitism are Israeli Creation Myth propaganda- there literally being no safe place for the Jews except Israel. There may well be some anti Israel resentment now, but that's neither anti semitism nor unjustified given that Israel is effectively slandering them for their own political purposes.

 

If you compare Polish anti semitism to those in similar positions the vast majority of persecution and murder of Polish Jews was direct by German Nazis with no help from Poles in general and very little help from them at all. In the Balts and Ukraine there was an immediate, organised native program to murder and betray Jews (and others, of course). There was even direct collaboration in 'enlightened' occupied western countries; indeed, they all did things like contribute SS units etc many of whom were the most fanatical fighters in the entire war, and given that that includes Japan it's really saying something.

[Raithe]

[pmp10]

 

 

I take it that a phrase "plenty of ugly history" is all you can muster and it would be pointless to ask for specifics which you have none.

From the before mentioned invasion of Vilnius and Czech lands to the polonization policies in the east.

And that's before we even get to the topic of internment camps, pacifications and eventual reprisals during the war.

Or of the pervasive antisemitism that's still going strong and is used as an excuse to justify that 'Polish death camps' nonsense.

 

I could go on but the point is that Poland needs an honest look at it's history not western-style denial and shouting-down of anyone who disagrees.

 

 

Yeah they did most of that, but to iterate, there really wasn't pervasive anti semitism in Poland, since people are likely to reflexively disagree with Sharpie. Nationalism, sure, and at times that was as unpleasant in Poland as in most places hence inter war Poland's behaviour was not always the model of restraint, shall we say. But, most of the stories about Polish anti semitism are Israeli Creation Myth propaganda- there literally being no safe place for the Jews except Israel. There may well be some anti Israel resentment now, but that's neither anti semitism nor unjustified given that Israel is effectively slandering them for their own political purposes.

 

I really wish that was the case but it's simply not true.

There was antisemitism in polish lands before 2nd republic came about.

The ways it differed compared to antisemitism in neighboring Germany and Soviet Union is quite another topic.

 

If you compare Polish anti semitism to those in similar positions the vast majority of persecution and murder of Polish Jews was direct by German Nazis with no help from Poles in general and very little help from them at all. In the Balts and Ukraine there was an immediate, organised native program to murder and betray Jews (and others, of course). There was even direct collaboration in 'enlightened' occupied western countries; indeed, they all did things like contribute SS units etc many of whom were the most fanatical fighters in the entire war, and given that that includes Japan it's really saying something.

The point is that's just a result of semantics.

Who qualified as a native Pole and who as an ethnic German living in Poland was largely decided antebellum.

Also it's based on the assumption that there were no Polish citizens willing to run Poland for the nazis.

Such people were simply turned-down.

[Guard Dog]

Rand Paul on the Senate Floor last night: "When the Democrats are in power, Republicans appear to be the conservative party. But when Republicans are in power, it seems there is no conservative party. The hypocrisy hangs in the air and chokes anyone with a sense of decency or intellectual honesty."

 

It's a damn shame there are on 20 or 30 more senators just like him. The reason I have turned by back on the Republican Party is they are just like the Democrats in every way. The talk a good game to the voters the hope to convince but above all else they love money, they love power, and they love a big government because it's the means to those ends. Just like the Democrats. The greatest con job in American history is the the politicians convincing Americans they are choosing between two competing philosophies. There is only one: Authoritarianism. It may be packaged as light, or even benevolent at times. But by it;s very nature it can't be either. Th only "choice" were making when we vote for Democrats and Republicans is who is holding the lash.

[Guard Dog]

Pence criticizes NK's military parade while defending Trump's:https://www.yahoo.com/gma/pence-bashes-north-koreas-military-parade-endorses-trumps-083203429--abc-news-topstories.html

 

I wonder how he's able to look at himself in the mirror sometimes.

Edited February 9, 2018 by Guard Dog

[Pidesco]

Rand Paul on the Senate Floor last night: "When the Democrats are in power, Republicans appear to be the conservative party. But when Republicans are in power, it seems there is no conservative party. The hypocrisy hangs in the air and chokes anyone with a sense of decency or intellectual honesty."

 

It's a damn shame there are on 20 or 30 more senators just like him. The reason I have turned by back on the Republican Party is they are just like the Democrats in every way. The talk a good game to the voters the hope to convince but above all else they love money, they love power, and they love a big government because it's the means to those ends. Just like the Democrats. The greatest con job in American history is the the politicians convincing Americans they are choosing between two competing philosophies. There is only one: Authoritarianism. It may be packaged as light, or even benevolent at times. But by it;s very nature it can't be either. Th only "choice" were making when we vote for Democrats and Republicans is who is holding the lash.

 

Let's not forget that that disingenuous ass voted for a massively increased deficit without any guarantees of a decrease in spending, so he is as much to blame as everyone else.

 

Seems to me there are plenty of senators like him. Plenty of them say one thing then vote for something else.

[Guard Dog]

First of all spending and taxes are separate issues. Second it has been proven time and time again that decreasing taxes ultimately leads to MORE revenue for the government rather than less. Economic expansion means more activity, more tax payers, more taxable transactions, etc. If you make something more expensive you will have less of it. If you make something less expensive you will have more of it.

[ShadySands]

Bah. I was hoping to have a three day weekend.

 

Regarding the parade, it sounds dumb. If they want to show appreciation for the troops then I'd suggest a day off or a raise and not making things more difficult or making more work. Or bring them home, that would be a good reason to have a parade

Edited February 9, 2018 by ShadySands

[injurai]

More revenue is always relative to growth, and growth has long been in a decline. It's why we moved to a fiat system to stimulate with artificial growth.

 

Many markets that drive the west today boomed once being opened to the free market, but most of them got their start from public spending. Market's are boom and bust, drive the cost down and commodities something then all of a sudden you're no longer growing. If other nations are increasing public spending on research then we'll have to compete there equally.

 

The reason for taxes is to raise unmarked funds that can be allocated to something new, existing revenue is already marked, and it sure as hell isn't going to be unmarked if the revenue is coming in from private spending. Unlike taxes which have to be raised and voted in, the quantitative easing that bolsters the market is borrowed directly against the people outside of any tax framework.

[Guard Dog]

Three government bureaucrats explaining taxes:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aO4bTKHXt8

[Pidesco]

First of all spending and taxes are separate issues. Second it has been proven time and time again that decreasing taxes ultimately leads to MORE revenue for the government rather than less. Economic expansion means more activity, more tax payers, more taxable transactions, etc. If you make something more expensive you will have less of it. If you make something less expensive you will have more of it.

Citation needed that is not from the Austrian School of economics.

[Chilloutman]

mean while in russa (not gonna lie, I kinda root for him):

 

https://meduza.io/en/news/2018/02/08/an-escort-girl-may-be-the-latest-russia-gate-link

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

First of all spending and taxes are separate issues. Second it has been proven time and time again that decreasing taxes ultimately leads to MORE revenue for the government rather than less. Economic expansion means more activity, more tax payers, more taxable transactions, etc. If you make something more expensive you will have less of it. If you make something less expensive you will have more of it.

Citation needed that is not from the Austrian School of economics.

 

 

I'd be fine with any citation if it's actually backed by hard data.

[Bartimaeus]

Shocker: Trump has refused to authorize the release of the Dems' memo.

[Guard Dog]

On the tax vs revenue debate, we've had that conversation before! https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/93085-politics-episode-8-wwf-edition/page-15?hl=%2Blaffer+%2Bcurve&do=findComment&comment=1923705

 

I bet there is nothing under the sun that has not been argued about on this forum at some point in the last 15 years! 

[Chilloutman]

BU! Bu! Bu! xD