Analysis of Meta-Game [Abilities/Spells]

[KDubya]

I think if they lowered the innate +50% attack speed from dual wielding and/or added some sort of malus to accuracy and/or damage that'd go along way towards some parity.

 

Then give two handed weapons double bonus from Might/Strength and maybe bigger magical bonuses as they're bigger and all. Additional penetration could also have a place here.

 

Have Two handed be the choice for the really strong and have dual wielding be more appealing to average strength types.

[theBalthazar]

Perhaps Obsidian fear what they did in Tyranny.

 

A high reduction of recovery. Who creates a 2H very OP.

 

But here, nothing like this exist. (except for barbarian and barbaric blow if the ennemy is killed)

 

So, there is no risk.

[SaruNi]

Btw you can reach 0 recovery with upgraded Barbaric Blow---however you have to kill your target and you're limited by Rage (unless you have enough edible corpses...). With rod modal or Spirit Lance, Berserk, and Beckoner's skeletons (once Ancient Brittle Bones is no longer bugged) you should be able to keep it up... haven't tested it though.

 

And of course there's Swift Flurry and Cleaving Stance... which will most likely be changed so they can't trigger themselves (too many times, at least...). 

Edited January 15, 2018 by SaruNi

[Guest Blutwurstritter]

I hope they give weapons different roles besides pure dps. Dual wielding, single handed combat and two-handed weapons should have different benefits/drawbacks, so they can shine each in their own forte. It is really boring if it boils down to the same dps calculation in almost every situation. Penetration was poorly handled in my opinion, it lacked polishing and was barely noticeable in combat. I prefer hard-counters to a degree, so you have to think about which weapons you will use against your enemy.

I would expect two-handed weapons to be especially useful against armored and/or large enemies and single handed weapons to be good in duels vs single enemies for example. It doesn't have to be this stereotypical as i mentioned but some kind of different feel to weapons would be nice. In PoE1 i barely felt a difference. Specialized roles for weapons would also enhance the tactical aspect of combat and opens up better encounter design. 

[AndreaColombo]

 

The problem was that the possibility of reaching zero recovery broke that rule -- instead of the general "diminshing returns" thumbnail, instead, to get an optimal build, you have to have a lot of meta-game knowledge about which magic items exist for your build that will let you reduce recovery to just the right flatline of zero while maximizing your damage and math starts getting involved and it's just a lot more complicated.

 

Wait, so the problem is that having an optimal build is more complicated if you can reach 0 recovery? Because if you want an optimal build, gathering meta knowledge about the best magic items and stats is pretty much the way you do it regardless of 0 recovery. As far as PoE goes, there have been several builds posted that didn't reach 0 recovery and were still popular, fun to play, and capable of beating the game on PotD (sometimes even solo); having a hard break on attack speed didn't really seem to curb any of that as far as I could tell.

 

I would also contend that making an optimal build in a system with no hard breaks is actually harder, because your marginal advantage from increasing everything never ends. You pretty much have to pull out an Excel sheet if you want to know how much more DPS you're going to get out of 1 extra point of X instead of Y at the point you're at. With 0 recovery you at least had one definite end-game goal to reach, while trying to do as best you could in every other department (and you still needed a sheet for DPS calculation precisely because of the absence of hard breaks elsewhere, but that was never an issue for me to begin with.)

 

 

Plus, side note, but not all weapons even use "recovery"; it seems like in Deadfire "reload" replaces "recovery" for guns and crossbows. So with zero recovery as the dominant build, you have the same issue the first game had where guns and xbows are inherently deprecated.

 

If you're going for an optimal build, a slower weapon is always inherently deprecated. More so in Deadfire, where no DPS is lost to DR when attacking faster (although you can lose damage to under-penetration, but an optimal build is likely to avoid that; in PoE, avoiding DPS loss from DR was impossible.) We can't reach 0 recovery now, but firearms and arbalests don't appear to be very popular still—and rightfully so: In this game more than in its predecessor, speed is king.

 

I think this is boring. I liked about PoE1 that there where many different ways to build your char for each class. Some options were better than others, but most were at least viable and since it is a single player game you only need to be strong enough to beat the monsters. There is no need to be better than other players ( I would not mind some kind of arena mode, but I would probably be one of the worst players there if I use it at all.)

Reaching zero recovery was the only hard limit in PoE1.

 

...and yet, despite that one hard limit, you still had "many different ways to build your char for each class." As you noted, that's currently not much of the case in Deadfire; 0 recovery cannot be reached, so now it pays to always stack speed any chance you get. As I tried to explain in my previous post, the ability to reach 0 recovery with all three styles made the choice among them actually meaningful in PoE.

 

I can't comment on WoW, but in PoE you had to really stretch yourself thin if you wanted 0 recovery in heavy armor with a 2H or 1H. It's not like you reached 0 recovery and automatically discarded a plethora of potential extra bonuses to speed from then on; you pretty much exhausted your bonuses. Or you could choose to wear lighter armor or dual-wield, in which case you lessened the speed boost requirements in exchange for something else that would be more valuable to you. That, to me, is meaningful decision-making rather than trite "stereotypization" (if that's even a word, which it probably isn't.)

 

What, OTOH, would lead to said trite stereotypization is a system where every weapon style was made mathematically equal in DPS to the others. If balance went that far, the choice wouldn't matter anymore—you could pick one style at random, safe in the knowledge no other style would be better (not saying this is what you guys are proposing; it's more of a general consideration.)

 

 

I'm also a little surprised that you guys don't mind sitting through recovery times longer than 1.5s; to me it is boring and it also conveys the feeling that my character isn't very powerful, though that's probably because I'm used to fast action (and I'm generally a fairly impatient person)

[Madscientist]

@AndreaColombo

The thing you quoted from me should show that the system of PoE1 was much better than WoW because WoW was full of hard limits.

 

The problem is that dual wielding any weapon is stronger than using any other weapon ( see table of Kdubya )

You said that speed is king, dual wielding gives a huge bonus and the fighter talent makes it even faster, increasing the advantage of dual wielding even more.

At the moment others styles have no chance to compete with dual wielding, thats why I suggested to nerf dual wielding and buff 2h.

 

my first suggestion was: lower dual wielding speed bonus a lot and increase 2h penetration

 

There is no DR anymore and players will usually have enough penetration, especially power gamers.

 

so now suggestion 2:

- Dual wielding get a damage penalty, like you do only 80% damage  as base damage, but the speed bonus stays relatively high

- 2h and single wield get a "whirlwind mode" that you can turn on and off. This mode lowers your damage and increases your speed.

Edit: When reading this the suggestion for 2h and 1h sounds terrible. That might mean that dual wielding needs to be nerfed a lot, because at the moment I see no way to buff other styles so that they even have a slight chance to compete under any circumstances.

 

Like TheBalthazar said:

Dual wielding does not need to do more damage than other styles when using auto attacks with normal weapons, because dual wielding has other advantages: You get bonusses and special abilities from two weapons instead of one. All bonusses on weapons stack with everything else. Full attacks come on top of that.

A paladin/monk with lightning strikes, eternal devotion and weapons that have on hit effects will always be better with dual wielding than with any other style, even if you nerf dual and buff others.

 

some notes:

- I have never reached zero recovery in PoE1 with a non dual wielder, but I do not play PotD and I do not like to use potions (and maybe farm items for them) every battle.

 

- I am a very slow player. I like turn based games, in real time with pause in combat I have more pause time than real time and I am terrible in action games.

 

- Although I like discussions about game mechanics, I am not really a power gamer and I play games mostly for the story and exploration. For me those discussions are more academic intellectuel training than about the I play games.

Edited January 15, 2018 by Madscientist

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

 

 

The problem was that the possibility of reaching zero recovery broke that rule -- instead of the general "diminshing returns" thumbnail, instead, to get an optimal build, you have to have a lot of meta-game knowledge about which magic items exist for your build that will let you reduce recovery to just the right flatline of zero while maximizing your damage and math starts getting involved and it's just a lot more complicated.

 

Wait, so the problem is that having an optimal build is more complicated if you can reach 0 recovery?

 

 

 

Not so much "more complicated" vs "less complicated" as intuitive vs. counter-intuitive. The problem with dramatic breakpoints is that they're inherently counter-intuitive and players have to learn the breakpoints, they can't just approximate by knowing the general rules. 

[SaruNi]

.

 

Like TheBalthazar said:

Dual wielding does not need to do more damage than other styles when using auto attacks with normal weapons, because dual wielding has other advantages: You get bonusses and special abilities from two weapons instead of one. All bonusses on weapons stack with everything else. Full attacks come on top of that.

A paladin/monk with lightning strikes, eternal devotion and weapons that have on hit effects will always be better with dual wielding than with any other style, even if you nerf dual and buff others.

 

 

But the lashes from lightning strike and iirc eternal devotion are just percentages of DPS. You might get a bit longer effective use of them from having less chance of mismatch between recovery and attack, but I think that mismatch is at most equal to recovery time + attack speed (worst case scenario being it expires just before your next attack, instead of just after).

Edited January 15, 2018 by SaruNi

[SaruNi]

Because Tactical Meld can be cast outside of combat and has a 30 second base duration, you can cast it and have the focus returned to you before combat starts.

 

Not only do you get all the focus back almost immediately... there's a bug that actually gives you between +20 and +40 extra focus at the start of combat if you do this. So 62 starting focus became alternately 95, 85, and 93.

 

That almost makes up for the accuracy bonus (main point of Tactical Meld) not working at all... let them fix that first though. Hopefully we'll still be able to cast it outside of combat (like the 5th tier Wizard protective self-buff).

 

You can also cast Ectopsychic Echo before combat starts (won't initiate combat unless enemy is attacked by it) and get the focus refunded, though the 10 second duration makes this slightly less useful if you also want to start casting a 6 second spell before combat starts.

 

Dominate would be much more fun and versatile if you could actually control their ability use (and make them fireball themselves, etc.). You can make them move or attack a particular enemy, but using abilities---the main advantage of dominate over charmed---is left up to their AI. Maybe they just haven't implemented it yet?....

Edited January 16, 2018 by SaruNi

[JFutral]

I don't have a problem with potential damage rates since each weapon type has its inherent advantages and disadvantages regarding damage type. Axes only offer slash damage, but estocs do pierce, etc. A few do two types, but none to my knowledge do all three types.

 

What seems unbalanced, even unlikely, to me is that when dual wielding each weapon has an equal opportunity each round of damaging. Not to invoke reality, but at least some measure of balance (since everyone here is all bent on that), it seems more likely that the second weapon would be used in a defensive manner at least as, if not more, often than an offensive manner.

 

Of course, that is now offered as a mode for certain weapons. And there is already an ACC penalty for dual wielding.

 

Maybe the offhand weapon only gets a chance to hit every other round, or something along those lines but marginally adds to deflection or disruption depending on weapon type. Not to make the mode moot, so maybe the mode contributes more to that FX.

 

This would supplement some of the shield discussion in another thread.

 

Joe

[IndiraLightfoot]

Yeah. Is everybody ambidextrous in Deadfire? The offhand should have its price, no, if both is invested in offense?

And if they decide to improve the shield abilities, and add some that are offensive, the same kind of consideration would apply.

[AndreaColombo]

Not so much "more complicated" vs "less complicated" as intuitive vs. counter-intuitive. The problem with dramatic breakpoints is that they're inherently counter-intuitive and players have to learn the breakpoints, they can't just approximate by knowing the general rules.

 

Why? They can approximate by "bonus speed is always good"; not every character must be at 0 recovery just because it's technically achievable

 

 

@Madscientist

I agree: If 0 recovery remains unreachable, DW needs a nerf. My point was that re-introducing 0 recovery would be a better, more desirable solution. Unfortunately for me, that doesn't seem to be a popular opinion.

[dunehunter]

I like the idea of give 2h weapon extra penetration. Since there are no effective way to boost Pen except u r a berserker or monk, an extra tool to boost pen is always welcomed!

[theBalthazar]

I have a another idea. A flash.

 

FULL ATTACK 2H

 

- Penetration + 2

- Maximum damage !

 

What do you think of that ?

 

E.g. 15 - 23 - Estoc.

Total Penetration 12

 

Full attack =

Always 23 damages. 

Penetration 14.

Edited January 16, 2018 by theBalthazar

[Madscientist]

I don't have a problem with potential damage rates since each weapon type has its inherent advantages and disadvantages regarding damage type. Axes only offer slash damage, but estocs do pierce, etc. A few do two types, but none to my knowledge do all three types.

 

What seems unbalanced, even unlikely, to me is that when dual wielding each weapon has an equal opportunity each round of damaging. Not to invoke reality, but at least some measure of balance (since everyone here is all bent on that), it seems more likely that the second weapon would be used in a defensive manner at least as, if not more, often than an offensive manner.

 

Of course, that is now offered as a mode for certain weapons. And there is already an ACC penalty for dual wielding.

 

Maybe the offhand weapon only gets a chance to hit every other round, or something along those lines but marginally adds to deflection or disruption depending on weapon type. Not to make the mode moot, so maybe the mode contributes more to that FX.

 

This would supplement some of the shield discussion in another thread.

 

Joe

 

No, there is no acc penalty for dual wielding. Single wielding gives +12acc, but all other styles get no penalty.

 

---------------------

 

Warning: Once again I am referring to history when talking about game mechanics (some people never learn )

There are many videos and texts that show:

- There were some people who were dual wielding in history, but only a few ones. Usually it was 2h or 1h+shield

- Usually there were two options: First is to use a larger and a smaller weapon and you use the smaller weapon as kind of shield, means you use it mostly to parry enemy attacks

- The other way is to use two very small weapons so you can hold them in your fist and they don´t get in each others way, like small daggers

- Using two large weapons does not make you attack faster, the two weapons will get in each others way instead so you get more problems.

end of history lesson

 

-------------------------------

 

OK, what does this mean for game mechanics:

 

Lets see how other games did it:

The best example I know was NWN2:

- 2h weapons got an strengh modifier of 1.5

- 1h and 1h+shield got a strengh modifier of 1, there was the duellist class that gave bonusses (never used it) and KotoR had a talent that gave a hit chance bonus for single wielding (not sure about NWN2). Generally single weapon without shield was a bad idea.

- dual wielding gave you a hit chance penalty, there was another penalty if the off hand weapon was not small and the strengh modifier for the off hand was 0.5. You needed high dex and spend talents to get more attacks with your off hand. In order to have as many attacks with your off hand as with your main hand you needed an epic char with lots of dex and several talents.

 

Despite the very long list of penalties for dual wielding there were powerful dual wielders who could compete with 2h.

Of course, at higher levels casters were much more powerful than most melee or ranged chars, but thats another topic.

My favourite char who used mostly weapon attacks in combat was a buffed priest with weapon and shield by the way. http://nwn2db.com/build/?180624

Most other games have penalties for dual wielding too.

 

Ok, what does this mean for PoE2:

- dual wielding can be powerful even it gets large penalties. Since there are no penalties at the moment and dual wielding is OP now it needs a nerf. We could

  + reduce speed bonus for dual wielding

  + reduce damage for dual wielding

  + reduce acc for dual wielding

  + reduce penetration ( this one I like least, but I do not like the penetration system anyway)

  + a combination of the things above

 

2h can get stronger by

  + increasing damage ( I do not like huge numbers on weapons, but a bigger str modifier like NWN2 might work

  + increase penetration ( as I have written before, it makes sense from a physics point of view)

  + increase speed (not good, why should a 2h weapon be faster than a one hand)

  + I like the suggestion for full attacks by TheBalthazar

  + something else, I am sure there is something but don´t find a good idea

  + a combination of the things above

[dunehunter]

I have a another idea. A flash.

 

FULL ATTACK 2H

 

- Penetration + 2

- Maximum damage !

 

What do you think of that ?

 

E.g. 15 - 23 - Estoc.

Total Penetration 12

 

Full attack =

Always 23 damages.

Penetration 14.

Voted, sounds a good idea. One concern is primary attack ability are gimped after change

[Madscientist]

 

I have a another idea. A flash.

 

FULL ATTACK 2H

 

- Penetration + 2

- Maximum damage !

 

What do you think of that ?

 

E.g. 15 - 23 - Estoc.

Total Penetration 12

 

Full attack =

Always 23 damages.

Penetration 14.

Voted, sounds a good idea. One concern is primary attack ability are gimped after change

 

 

I like the idea too.

 

I think that a primary attack should only need half the resources than a full attack that causes a similar effect.

 

so we get:

full attack: when dual wielding attack with both weapons and both attacks have an additional effect, when having one weapon equiped you attack once and this attack does more damage/penetration than a normal attack and causes an additional effect

 

primary attack: a normal attack with your primary weapon that causes an additional effect for half the resource costs of a similar full attack

[AndreaColombo]

I like this too, to be honest.

[Boeroer]

Good idea. What about single handed weapon use? That would totally fall behind if there would be no special Full Attack bonus. Maybe additional (stackable) ACC and additional hit-to-crit conversion?

[IndiraLightfoot]

I have a another idea. A flash.

 

FULL ATTACK 2H

 

- Penetration + 2

- Maximum damage !

 

What do you think of that ?

 

E.g. 15 - 23 - Estoc.

Total Penetration 12

 

Full attack =

Always 23 damages. 

Penetration 14.

I really like this idea. It's fitting and somewhat realistic. 1H wpn use: See Boeroer's suggestion: a bit of additional (stackable Acc and a bit of hit-to-crit- conversion (equally fitting).

Nie work, guys. Case closed!

[AndreaColombo]

And with no nerf to speed! :D

[Madscientist]

The suggestion that everyone likes helps us only to deal with full (and maybe primary) attacks

 

We still have the problem that dual wielding does much more damage than any other style with auto attacks.

[IndiraLightfoot]

As you're weaker with your offhand weapon and less accurate (barring ambidextrous individuals. A new talent to pick, which reduce these penalties?), why not subtract some damage (30%) and Accuracy (by a significant bit) with that weapon? I mean dualwielding shouldn't be a given - it takes a whole lot of practise, and still you would perform worse with your offhand (except some extremely gifted dualwielding savant).

Edited January 17, 2018 by IndiraLightfoot

[theBalthazar]

Combo of all of this :

 

Two Handed

Normal accuracy

 

Two Handed FULL ATTACK

Maximum damages

Penetration +2

 

__________________

 

Two Weapons

Normal Accuracy on main hand / Accuracy -12 on offhand.

 

Two Weapons FULL ATTACK

Two successives attacks.

 

___________________

 

One Handed

Accuracy +12

 

One Handed FULL ATTACK

Maximum damages

+10 accuracy

___________________

 

Abilities of Fighter

 

Two Handed Style

+20 % damages

 

Two Weapons Style

+10 % of speed attack

Cancel the malus of offhand

 

One handed Style

+15 % graze to hit.

+15 % hit to crit.

 

_______________

 

Side notes :

 

- Andreacolombo should be happy : With a fighter DW only a nerf of 10 %. Dont forget with a multiclass level 9, impossible to reach the armor recovery reduction (20 %). So, if you like actually this speed with Fighter, you will find him again, soon enough. (+20 % on your actual feel = extremely fast, more than now. Absolute gain = 10 %)

- Malus of -12 is easy to remember it. A reverse of +12 of one handed.

- Actual bonus speed of +50 % with Dual wieilding don't move...

- One handed style is now a good option with fighter. With disciplined strike 65 % of hit to crit = not bad.

Edited January 17, 2018 by theBalthazar

[AndreaColombo]

You're on a roll, mate!