theBalthazar Posted January 13, 2018 Author Posted January 13, 2018 WIZARD Finally, the Last Class... > ACTIVE ABILITIES (SPELLS) Arkemyr's Dazzling Light Good afflictions. Good category of speed. Ok for me. Proposal : Perfect like this Thrust of Tattered Veil Considering he cannot miss and cannot crit... 13-24 only on 1 target is not enough. Proposal : 16-30 Minoletta minor Missiles Seems to be good. Especially with the improvements of power level. (More projectiles) Proposal : Perfect like this Wizard's double Good tool, but there is better highter. will quickly become obsolete. Proposal : Perfect like this Chill fog Really similar to Sunbeam (Druid). He have more radius and more duration. But less penetration and less damage. But this is an AoE of 15s. It is not the same thing. Much more powerful. Proposal : Perfect like this Slicken Prone is awful BUT... Here it is a little bit different. The effect is recurrent. So is not completely bad. Only the category of speed is problematic. Proposal : Intermediate -> Fast Jolting touch Good penetration, damage, and good speed category Proposal : Perfect like this Kalakoth sunless Graps -10 deflection for 15s + correct damages + penetration 7 Proposal : Perfect like this Concelhaut parasitic staff / Concelhaut's Draining Touch / Kalakoth minor blights Same debate than previously. Almost all summoned weapons : Proposal : very fast (3s overall 1s cast time 2 recovery) Ghost blades A good AoE spell. + a little affliction for 12s. Proposal : Perfect like this Fleet feet Become greater than Deleterious because he is level 1... Good ! (If you don't understand, it is normal, wait few lines...) Proposal : Perfect like this Fan of flames Good damages, good penetration for this level (7) Good category of speed. Proposal : Perfect like this Eldritch Aim Compared to others buff, he is not almost-instant (it is a very fast spell) but this spell stay solid. Proposal : Perfect like this Spirit shield Armor rating + Concentration. Good for almost instant speed. Proposal : Perfect like this Curse of Blackened Sigh Sadly, the chain of "perfect like this" stop there. Ok this is for 20s. But without damages. It is an inferior category of speed. Proposal : Category of speed, intermediate to fast. Miasma of Dull Mindedness Crazy debuff of level 2. Wizard is NOT Bad. He is globally awsome, except the choice of Obsidian to create a general rule of too long cast time+recovery for all spells. the wizard is not last, it is very well balanced. Just do a general boost plz. Proposal : Perfect like this Mirrorred image A good protection of 30 deflection. Down at each hit, but great. Proposal : Perfect like this Bewildering spectacle Confused for 15s. Good. (and good category of speed) Proposal : Perfect like this Fetid Caress I disagree. Here there is a bad category of speed. Paralysed is very good but concern only the main target. No damages and a little AoE. Proposal : Category of speed Intermediate (8s) to Fast (Actually 6s, generally 3 ct+3 r) Grimoire slam Not crazy but do the job. What saves this spell is interruption. Proposal : Perfect like this Combusting wounds Good concept. I love it. Good category of speed. Proposal : Perfect like this Concelhaut corrosive siphon A special effect : corrosive damage on foe, healing on caster. Good category of speed Proposal : Perfect like this Necrotic Lance Seems to be a little slow. Good damages yes, but it is only one target... Proposal : Change category of speed. Intermediate > Fast Merciless gaze 15 % hit to crit for 45s with 3s of cast time. Pretty good. Proposal : Perfect like this Arcane Veil +50 deflection against Veil attack. Specific, but Solid. Proposal : Perfect like this Binding web Immobilized is good but not at the level of intermediate speed. Proposal : Category of speed Intermediate to fast. Ray of fire 50-90 damages on 10 seconds. Ok for intermediate speed. Proposal : Perfect like this Rolling flame Not worth intermediate speed. Damages are too low. Proposal : Category of speed intermediate to fast. Bulwark against the elements Crazy on a certain point of view. (Obi wan kenobi) Proposal : Perfect like this Infuse with the vital essence 2 inspirations for 45s. Crazy ? : p Proposal : Perfect like this Arcane Dampener Good tool. Good category of speed. Proposal : Perfect like this Llengrath displaced image Crazy again, Wizard have crazy self buff. Proposal : Perfect like this Ryngrim's Repulsive Visage 15s with 2 afflictions. Proposal : Perfect like this Arduous Delay of motion I think, this spell is overrated. This is a good effect but 1) foes continue to attack 2) Stride malus is almost useless. There is no debuff. So, personnally... Proposal : Category of spell, Intermediate to fast. Noxious burst For me, this spell deserved to stay at intermediate. BUT the penetration is a problem, as damages. Proposal : 28-38 (24-33 now) and penetration 7 (5 now) Expose vulnerabilities Same here. I think the category of speed of this spell is intermediate, but there is a lack of effect. -2 is nothing. Proposal : -3 armor rating -10 deflection Deleterious alacrity WTF ! : p So... if we are honest... The true and real effect of this spell is +5 dexterity. So +15 % action speed. You gain stride (useless), you gain a loss of health, and immunity to engagement (useful but... not... decisive all the time) So if we truncate a lot, stay only the +15 % of speed. ... Same has nimble level 1 with fleet feet. No, this is not possible, I can not tolerate it: p Proposal : Swift, -8 health by 3s, +10% of action speed. So, we are at 15 + 10 = 25 %. We are far from POE1 (no problem with that ; 50 % was too much), but here it is already more attractive Minoletta bounding Missiles Seems to be legit. Single class with improvements of power level will be insane. (level 20...) Proposal : perfect like this Crackling bolt 8s for 24 pts of damage. No... Very difficult to aim. Proposal : Change category of speed, Intermediate to fast. Fireball Not enough damage for this category of speed. Proposal : 32-42 Minoletta's concussive missiles Best form of minoletta. Good category of speed. Good damage. Great. Proposal : Perfect like this Flame shield Damage on contact + Resistance to freeze. Damages are not crazy, but the category of speed is so fast (almost instant)... Proposal : Perfect like this Confusion Problem here, 8s of cast-time+recovery for 20s, when bewildering spectacle was 6s for 15s and a little less of AoE (1.5 vs 2.5) but the difference is not crazy... Proposal : Accuracy + 10. Idea of : Yes this is more longer, but you will have a safer result Pull of Eora Ok 10s for this ? Ok it continually interrupts the casters. This is a good thing. But, for me, not worth the worse category of speed of all the game. Proposal : Category speed Slow (10s) -> Intermediate (8s). Dimensionnal shift Short cast time. Stun for 5s. Not easy to use but, balanced. Proposal : Perfect like this Minor arcane reflection Crazy. With a category of speed "almost-Instant". Great. Good tool. Proposal : Perfect like this Essential phantom / Maura's whrithing tentacles Obsidian ? That was my favorite invocation in POE1. I love it. But now... TEN seconds : p He served me well But I prefer to fire him now : p Always the same problem : you think this is cool to wait 9 seconds, with a risk of interruption. But this is not. Plus, the fight is already over... Proposal : Category of speed Slow to intermediate. (An invocation takes its meaning on the length of the fight, so if in addition it arrives at the end of the fight! ...) Wall of flame Same problem here, but worst, because for the first time, I will dare... Proposal : Category of speed, SLOW to... ...Fast ! It is damage over time with a "not practical" wall. If you are good, there is perhaps 2 ennemies Max on the line ? Not worth it. Minor grimoire inprint Good tool, fast. Proposal : Perfect like this Ironskin More than good. +5 general AR for 0.4s 'almost instant" speed... Proposal : Perfect like this Arkemyr Wondrous torment Problem here, there is better version at spell level 2 (Miasma). Objectively a nonsense. Perhaps I miss something ?... Proposal : Category of spell intermediate to fast. Duration, 20 sec to 25sec. Torrent of flame Not crazy with this category of speed. Damage barely effective. Very small AoE, and arround the caster. Proposal : Category of speed intermediate to fast. Damage : 45-55. Ryngrim's Enervating terror 2 afflictions. Not crazy again but better than the previous version. Proposal : Perfect like this Ninagauth bitter mooring Damages Overtime. Seems to be legit in terms of damages. Proposal : Perfect like this Form of the helpless beast This is only one target, and she can move. So... Proposal : Category of spell, intermediate to fast. Blast of frost Good AoE with category of speed "fast". Damages is sufficient. Good. But, Penetration is not. Proposal : Penetration 7 Malignant cloud bad 7-12 raw damages on 10s. Nothing else. Max 40 pts on damage at the end. Max. Proposal : 15-20 raw damage each 3s. Wall of force Actual record of the game. 9 seconds (Cast time) + 3 seconds (Recovery) At the end, we will forget our wizard on the battlefield We will all be finished except him. Proposal : Obsidian...12 seconds... Obsidian : p... Citzal spirit lance Ok, here a little new thing. This summoned weapon is slighty more powerful. So... Proposal : 3 seconds of cast time. (Between fast and very fast) Call to slumber For me, it is ok. Good effect for 10s. Proposal : Perfect like this (I hesitate, perhaps a little more of duration because there is nothing else, but its globally ok) Llengrath safeguard Great self buff. Only 3s of cast. Good. Proposal : Perfect like this
dunehunter Posted January 13, 2018 Posted January 13, 2018 (edited) Ninagauth bitter mooring Damages Overtime. Seems to be legit in terms of damages. Proposal : Perfect like this I did over 500 damage to the dummy with this spell. I think with Empower this spell can do over 1000 damage. For a Ray spell this is a bit overpowered. And all Dazed/Confused affliction spell need to be tuned. Edited January 13, 2018 by dunehunter
BrettNLowe Posted January 13, 2018 Posted January 13, 2018 CIPHER > ACTIVE ABILITIES (SPELLS) Whisper of treason Seems to be good in this "category" of speed. (See preamble of Priest : I want less Cast time and recovery globally, but/and when I am in this case : green (because balanced with the whole). And when I want specifically an additionnal effort : red and not green.) Here, if there is a general boost of all spells = it will be good. Proposal : Perfect like this. Mental bending Down category of speed intermediate to fast. Indeed there is "Paralysed". But it is only one target and for 6s. Others are only immobilized. Not the same thing... Proposal : 4s of cast time, and 2 seconds of recovery. Puppet master dominated. Need to be at the intermediate category speed. Good. Proposal : Perfect like this I really disagree on puppet master and whisper of treason (and to a slightly lesser extent re: Mental Binding, since it's AoE): they need to be fairly quick casts, because 10 seconds is a relatively short duration, and there's a miss rate. I've shown the math elsewhere on the forum, but once you factor in miss rates, whisper and domination need a fast cast time to be worthwhile -- otherwise you're just trading your time for the enemy's at an even rate, and since PC time is more valuable than the time of a random monster, you need a really strongly beneficial time trade to make casting the power worthwhile. There's an additional factor too, which is harder to quantify; I mention it because I'm not sure how you did your testing and it might not be obvious without extended play of the class. The "ex-vancian" casters have to wait a lot less time before casting, while Ciphers have to build focus over the course of the fight, which takes time; they can't open the fight with their strongest powers in the way that a Wizard or Priest or Druid can. Because of that, I'd argue that cipher powers should be *very* fast-casting, to make up for the time lost autoattacking and waiting to build focus. (The same argument applies to an extent to Chanter invocations). That argument applies generally to all Cipher powers though, not just the specific crowd-control powers. Net effect, I'd actually argue that ciphers (and possibly Chanters) should have cast times similar to or better than their casting times in the previous game, even given the generally longer casting times in Deadfire. Everyone else moved to non-vancian, per-encounter casting, and Ciphers need something to balance that out or they'll be relatively much weaker. Fast casting seems thematic and appropriate and not unbalanced given the focus mechanic. I completely agree with this. Ciphers lost their niche - the versatile caster that doesn't rely on per-rest resources - but kept the disadvantage they paid for that versatility (building focus). To give them back an edge, their powers should virtually all be fast or instant-cast, which would help them maintain their status as effective gishes. 3
theBalthazar Posted January 13, 2018 Author Posted January 13, 2018 (edited) I really disagree on puppet master and whisper of treason (and to a slightly lesser extent re: Mental Binding, since it's AoE): they need to be fairly quick casts, because 10 seconds is a relatively short duration, and there's a miss rate. I've shown the math elsewhere on the forum, but once you factor in miss rates, whisper and domination need a fast cast time to be worthwhile -- otherwise you're just trading your time for the enemy's at an even rate, and since PC time is more valuable than the time of a random monster, you need a really strongly beneficial time trade to make casting the power worthwhile. I completely agree with this. Ciphers lost their niche - the versatile caster that doesn't rely on per-rest resources - but kept the disadvantage they paid for that versatility (building focus). To give them back an edge, their powers should virtually all be fast or instant-cast, which would help them maintain their status as effective gishes. Don't forget. This is not the actual statut of the spell that is "perfect like this". It is the category that is perfect like this. On the same way, if tomorrow, Obsidian tell : Slow 8s (6s cast time + 2s recovery) Intermediate 6s (3s cast time + 3s recovery) Fast 4s (2s cast time + 2s recovery) Very fast 2s (1s cast time + 1s recovery) You want at least "Fast" ? Fast become 4s with this choice^^ These lists is more for the logical of power/efficiency. Not the actual numbers precisely. More a "magnitude". I repeat it : if not, all spells what I have described would have been in red (and it would not have been interesting). Because 99 % of 6s + 2s is far too long for what they do. They are few case, where I modifie specifically the spell, because I imagine this after a general boost of all spells and I ask this question : Even after that, would that be enough? 1) Yes. = green. 2) No. = Red with a change of category. (Intermediate to fast etc.) This why I used rarely of precise numbers. But to resume, I am totally with you : 6s of cast and 2s of recovery is still way too much for puppets master and all his derivatives !^^ I'm just saying that after a general boost, there would be no need for specific modification. For exemple, 3s + 3s for a spell that is control the enemy totally. Seems to be sufficient...^^ I did over 500 damage to the dummy with this spell. Totally possible !^^ 1) It is a bug. 2) It is overtime. Edited January 13, 2018 by theBalthazar
Madscientist Posted January 13, 2018 Posted January 13, 2018 (edited) I agree with you about ciphers as well: In PoE1 druids, wizards and priests could cast at once but they needed to rest while chanters and ciphers could cast as much as they want but they had to build up their resources. In PoE2, everybody can use all spells in a fight and have them back the next fight. So yes, ciphers should cast faster than vacian casters because they need time for auto attacks which can also miss. At the moment ciphers are only good as soul blade, best multi classed with a martial class: Attack enemies with your weapon, then use your focus for even more damage. Maybe cast a spell sometimes when it makes sense. But as casters ciphers are almost useless now. It takes forever to cast and then it takes long untill you can cast again. Chanters have it better than ciphers in PoE2 now. A skald multi classed with a melee class will have enough phrases and the fast cone spells ( armor down, paralyze) are very powerful. The one who doubles the amount of summons can be useful too. ----------------------------------------------- about weapon styles: In almost all games dual wielding comes with some kind of penalty. You had to spend points in dual wielding skill or else it would make you weaker instead of stronger. In PoE2 putting a weapon in each hand gives you a huge speed bonus without penalty. It looks like the devs of PoE do not like penalties. No talents come with a penalty (except sub class specials) and they removed the penalties for paladins and priests. ( PS: the downsides for specialized wizards should be lowered too, losing 2 out of 5 spells schools plus more recovery for 2 schools is too much). so my suggestion is to do both: - lower the recovery bonus for dual wielding from 50% down to 25% or 30% - give 2h weapons a bonus in penetration and 2h style gives +20% damage ( up from 15%, style is fighters only and they can also boost dual wielding by 20%) At the moment, dual wielding is the best option. You do much more damage than any other weapon style. As written above you cannot reach zero recovery anymore so dual wielders will always be ahead. So I think the bonus should be lowered because you have it all the time without conditions or downsides. In the middle ages people used huge 2h swords and hammers to damage other people in heave armor. Armors and weapons got heavier and the limit was that people must still lift it and fight with it. The use of firearms led to the end of heavy armors. So it makes sense that bigger weapons have more penetration. ( Big minus point for me for referring to history and physics when talking about game mechanics ) Penetration is very importent in PoE2. ( PS: I liked the PoE1 damage system more). So I think its fair to give 2h weapons extra penetration. If you get enough penetration with dual wielding it makes no difference and dual wielding will likely cause more damage. But 2h weapons will have a bonus against enemies with really heavy armor or when you do not have a caster in your party than can reduce enemy AR. Edited January 13, 2018 by Madscientist 4
Dr. Hieronymous Alloy Posted January 13, 2018 Posted January 13, 2018 Don't forget. This is not the actual statut of the spell that is "perfect like this". It is the category that is perfect like this. Right -- even accounting for that, Whisper and Puppet especially have excessively long cast times. For example, Whisper of Treason is currently an "average" cast category spell; in the original game, it was a "fast" cast spell. The net result is it's been functionally triple-nerfed: 1) once by the move from fast to average cast times 2) once by the lengthening of cast times generally 3) once more by the fact that all the ex-vancians are no longer per-rest, but the Cipher still has to build focus before casting. Net effect, in order to bring Cipher powers back to parity, you can't just shorten the cast times generally -- it's not enough to just make "average" casting speed a better category. Even if "Average" goes down to 4 sec / 2 sec, that's still six seconds total you're losing, for a ten-second duration effect (and you can't really lengthen crowd control longer than ten seconds or it gets annoying when it hits players). If you adjust that ten second duration time for the expected value of misses/hits/crits etc., you end up getting around 6-8 seconds of effect. Since Whisper and Puppet are single-target effects . . .functionally then even with improved casting times generally to 4 c / 2 r, you're functionally just trading six seconds of your own character's paralysis for (on average) about eight seconds of enemy charm. You're trading your own dude out for a crappier enemy dude. It's not worth it. Cipher CC powers need to be fast/instant casting across the board, generally.
AndreaColombo Posted January 13, 2018 Posted January 13, 2018 At the moment, dual wielding is the best option. You do much more damage than any other weapon style. As written above you cannot reach zero recovery anymore so dual wielders will always be ahead. So I think the bonus should be lowered because you have it all the time without conditions or downsides. You'd prefer this to making 0 recovery possible again? "Time is not your enemy. Forever is." — Fall-From-Grace, Planescape: Torment "It's the questions we can't answer that teach us the most. They teach us how to think. If you give a man an answer, all he gains is a little fact. But give him a question, and he'll look for his own answers." — Kvothe, The Wise Man's Fears My Deadfire mods: Brilliant Mod | Faster Deadfire | Deadfire Unnerfed | Helwalker Rekke | Permanent Per-Rest Bonuses | PoE Items for Deadfire | No Recyled Icons | Soul Charged Nautilus
Dr. Hieronymous Alloy Posted January 13, 2018 Posted January 13, 2018 You'd prefer this to making 0 recovery possible again? Are we sure it's going to be completely impossible even in the full game with full-game items? That said. . . I'd prefer the bonus for dual weilding be reduced to 20% or 30% or whatever works out to parity, rather than the current 50%, yeah. Honestly, being able to reach zero recovery led to degenerate strategies in the first game; the "solution" to character design was to reach zero recovery with the heaviest-hitting weapons that could still get you to zero, so it led to a lot of metagamey strategies like deliberately NOT giving dex to rogue characters because you were planning on hitting zero recovery with items instead later. Ideally there wouldn't be an absolute "floors" any character can reach in any ability, because such leads to metagamey strategies. Break points are to be avoided.
AndreaColombo Posted January 14, 2018 Posted January 14, 2018 (edited) Are we sure it's going to be completely impossible even in the full game with full-game items? That said. . . I'd prefer the bonus for dual weilding be reduced to 20% or 30% or whatever works out to parity, rather than the current 50%, yeah. Honestly, being able to reach zero recovery led to degenerate strategies in the first game; the "solution" to character design was to reach zero recovery with the heaviest-hitting weapons that could still get you to zero, so it led to a lot of metagamey strategies like deliberately NOT giving dex to rogue characters because you were planning on hitting zero recovery with items instead later. Ideally there wouldn't be an absolute "floors" any character can reach in any ability, because such leads to metagamey strategies. Break points are to be avoided. We can't be sure without access to the full game, of course—however the change to how speed bonuses work from the first beta build to the second has been broad and significant, which suggests it was done for the purpose of preventing 0 recovery. I don't think 0 recovery per se would lead to any more meta-gaming than anything else. Now that 0 recovery is impossible and speed bonuses never stop adding to your power, albeit with diminishing returns, it pays to use meta knowledge to stack as many of them as possible. I'll pump dex, DW (regardless of how much the bonus is; the point is that DW is the only style that offers a speed boost and other styles have no way to close the gap), multi-class into a Fighter for the extra speed from the DW style talent, and pump Alchemy to abuse Potions of Deftness. I have no mechanical reason not to, because—especially in absence of DR—faster attack speed linearly translates to higher DPS (up until the point where adding damage or penetration adds more DPS than another speed increase, provided that a bonus to damage and/or penetration is available to you at that time.) Even if DW was nerfed to balance*, in the end hardcore players would use meta knowledge to calculate which combination of equipment and abilities led to the highest DPS and pursue it. The difference is that with 0 recovery reachable, you know you can max out on speed with any style and the choice becomes meaningful, as different styles require you to sacrifice different things for 0 recovery. As it is now, since it's impossible to max out on speed, you're encouraged to pursue the path that leads to the highest stacking of speed bonuses. * given two options to balance things out, I'll always choose the one that leads to my having shorter recovery. I just don't enjoy watching my men pause between attacks for more than 1-1.5s tops. Edited January 14, 2018 by AndreaColombo "Time is not your enemy. Forever is." — Fall-From-Grace, Planescape: Torment "It's the questions we can't answer that teach us the most. They teach us how to think. If you give a man an answer, all he gains is a little fact. But give him a question, and he'll look for his own answers." — Kvothe, The Wise Man's Fears My Deadfire mods: Brilliant Mod | Faster Deadfire | Deadfire Unnerfed | Helwalker Rekke | Permanent Per-Rest Bonuses | PoE Items for Deadfire | No Recyled Icons | Soul Charged Nautilus
theBalthazar Posted January 14, 2018 Author Posted January 14, 2018 (edited) Right -- even accounting for that, Whisper and Puppet especially have excessively long cast times. For example, Whisper of Treason is currently an "average" cast category spell; in the original game, it was a "fast" cast spell. The net result is it's been functionally triple-nerfed: 1) once by the move from fast to average cast times 2) once by the lengthening of cast times generally 3) once more by the fact that all the ex-vancians are no longer per-rest, but the Cipher still has to build focus before casting. Net effect, in order to bring Cipher powers back to parity, you can't just shorten the cast times generally -- it's not enough to just make "average" casting speed a better category. Even if "Average" goes down to 4 sec / 2 sec, that's still six seconds total you're losing, for a ten-second duration effect (and you can't really lengthen crowd control longer than ten seconds or it gets annoying when it hits players). If you adjust that ten second duration time for the expected value of misses/hits/crits etc., you end up getting around 6-8 seconds of effect. Since Whisper and Puppet are single-target effects . . .functionally then even with improved casting times generally to 4 c / 2 r, you're functionally just trading six seconds of your own character's paralysis for (on average) about eight seconds of enemy charm. You're trading your own dude out for a crappier enemy dude. It's not worth it. Cipher CC powers need to be fast/instant casting across the board, generally. So you want a system with low cast time. Like wizard (self buff) and chanter (for offensives invocations) Totally possible. Let's take a possible new deal of Obsidian : Slow 8s Intermediate 6s Fast 4s Very fast 2s In my repartition of categories, Puppet master was Intermediate, so 8s. We down to 6s here, with a boost of all spells. Now, the recovery / cast time repartition. You want a good cast time : 2s Cast Time / 4s recovery And you have the effect after 2 seconds. (Nothing now) But I validate, for a spell that has only one target, and whose effect will be done afterwards, gradually, (a traitor enemy) 6s + 2s is currently a huge incongruence. Edited January 14, 2018 by theBalthazar
Dr. Hieronymous Alloy Posted January 14, 2018 Posted January 14, 2018 (edited) Are we sure it's going to be completely impossible even in the full game with full-game items? That said. . . I'd prefer the bonus for dual weilding be reduced to 20% or 30% or whatever works out to parity, rather than the current 50%, yeah. Honestly, being able to reach zero recovery led to degenerate strategies in the first game; the "solution" to character design was to reach zero recovery with the heaviest-hitting weapons that could still get you to zero, so it led to a lot of metagamey strategies like deliberately NOT giving dex to rogue characters because you were planning on hitting zero recovery with items instead later. Ideally there wouldn't be an absolute "floors" any character can reach in any ability, because such leads to metagamey strategies. Break points are to be avoided. We can't be sure without access to the full game, of course—however the change to how speed bonuses work from the first beta build to the second has been broad and significant, which suggests it was done for the purpose of preventing 0 recovery. I don't think 0 recovery per se would lead to any more meta-gaming than anything else. Now that 0 recovery is impossible and speed bonuses never stop adding to your power, albeit with diminishing returns, it pays to use meta knowledge to stack as many of them as possible. I'll pump dex, DW (regardless of how much the bonus is; the point is that DW is the only style that offers a speed boost and other styles have no way to close the gap), multi-class into a Fighter for the extra speed from the DW style talent, and pump Alchemy to abuse Potions of Deftness. I have no mechanical reason not to, because—especially in absence of DR—faster attack speed linearly translates to higher DPS (up until the point where adding damage or penetration adds more DPS than another speed increase, provided that a bonus to damage and/or penetration is available to you at that time.) Even if DW was nerfed to balance*, in the end hardcore players would use meta knowledge to calculate which combination of equipment and abilities led to the highest DPS and pursue it. The difference is that with 0 recovery reachable, you know you can max out on speed with any style and the choice becomes meaningful, as different styles require you to sacrifice different things for 0 recovery. As it is now, since it's impossible to max out on speed, you're encouraged to pursue the path that leads to the highest stacking of speed bonuses. * given two options to balance things out, I'll always choose the one that leads to my having shorter recovery. I just don't enjoy watching my men pause between attacks for more than 1-1.5s tops. That's true, sure, but . .hrm. Let me compare with the stat system. Generally speaking, it's pretty clear that the idea in the first game was that it was disadvantageous to stack any one stat to crazy levels, because you got diminishing returns from each stat in proportion; each point of Might, Dex, and Per gave about the same boost, but there was a decreasing marginal utility sorta thing, such that if your Might was already high you'd generally be better off adding to Dex or Per, if your Per was already high you'd be better off adding to Might or Dex, etc. The exact formulas were complicated but you didn't have to know the exact math to know the general "diminishing returns" thumbnail rule. The problem was that the possibility of reaching zero recovery broke that rule -- instead of the general "diminshing returns" thumbnail, instead, to get an optimal build, you have to have a lot of meta-game knowledge about which magic items exist for your build that will let you reduce recovery to just the right flatline of zero while maximizing your damage and math starts getting involved and it's just a lot more complicated. Making sure that recovery reduction similarly happens on a diminshing-marginal-returns sortof way so that characters never flatly hit *zero* recovery, that seems like a good way to prevent that same break-point issue, so that the system remains relatively intuitive for most players. (I made a lot of arguments against the original Penetration system for the same reason -- I really hate harsh break points, they make things really unintuitive and hard to explain and always seem to lead to metagamey play). Plus, side note, but not all weapons even use "recovery"; it seems like in Deadfire "reload" replaces "recovery" for guns and crossbows. So with zero recovery as the dominant build, you have the same issue the first game had where guns and xbows are inherently deprecated. Edited January 14, 2018 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy 1
theBalthazar Posted January 14, 2018 Author Posted January 14, 2018 (edited) I played on the beta today. 4 findings. 1) At first sight, there is a gap between two handed and two weapons style. Indeed. More dazzling with a fighter. So perhaps a nerf. -10 % of Dual wielding seems to be sufficient. No more, because I observed the Fighter of the beta (One handed+shield) and there is not such a difference. (like -20 % that I see here and there) Don't forget : with and without style, what is powerful is the physical attackers. Use a mage with the two-weapon style, it will not do much ... Casters are weak, So the physical attackers look strong. 2) With the Fighter, seems to be weird to have 15 % damage for two handed style. The gap is widening here against two weapons style. So, to me, 20 % for two handed style is needed. 3) With the Fighter again, in his tree, one handed weapon without shield is the worst style, with 20 % misses to grazes, totally useless. We agree that all this comes mainly from the full application of the damage ? With the disappearance of a Damage Reduction. The new system of penetration being ambiguous if we exceed the value anyway. 4) So, to me, with a full attack, at least, two handed/one handed without shield should have a bonus in penetration. Like +2. Edited January 14, 2018 by theBalthazar
Madscientist Posted January 14, 2018 Posted January 14, 2018 Like the Dr. I dislike hard breaks. Here is an example of what I do NOT want to have: Long time ago I played World of Warcraft. For every class there was a cookie cutter build and other players complained when you had something different. You had to spend your talents in a certain way and regarding stats it usually went like this: - max out the main stat (str, dex or int) - get exactly x% hit chance. One point less and you could miss, every point more is wasted because you hit anyway - get exactly x% speed. One point less and you have a tick less of ability X, each point more is wasted until you get so much that it gives you another tick - and so on for the other stats There were programs that helped you to optimize your equipment in order to get exactly those numbers. I think this is boring. I liked about PoE1 that there where many different ways to build your char for each class. Some options were better than others, but most were at least viable and since it is a single player game you only need to be strong enough to beat the monsters. There is no need to be better than other players ( I would not mind some kind of arena mode, but I would probably be one of the worst players there if I use it at all.) Reaching zero recovery was the only hard limit in PoE1. At the moment PoE2 is bad in this regard because dual wielding is always the best way to deal max damage. It makes no sense if you have many options if one of them is much better than all others because everybody will use this choice unless a) they seek a challenge and want to make their life harder or b) they are new players who do not know which option is best and then they might quit because they feel very weak after choosing something that seemed like one viable choice among others. Thats why I say: nerf dual wielding and buff the other styles so that we actually do have a choice between several options and one is not always better than the others. 2
JFutral Posted January 14, 2018 Posted January 14, 2018 (edited) I agree, madscientist. It is tough, though, because this is for a computer and everything involves math with no way to subjectively weight attempts or outcomes. This is, currently, why a computer can't really replace PnP RPG with a human DM/GM However, ultimately what overrides the math is the story. PoE I and hopefully Deadfire, too, does an admirable job at that, even without the drive of an epic hero and with a fairly fungible goal for the endgame. One of the things that made NWN I so great wasn't just the official campaigns, but the community generated campaigns. And what made the best of those were always their story. Just some thoughts, Joe Edited January 14, 2018 by JFutral
theBalthazar Posted January 14, 2018 Author Posted January 14, 2018 (edited) QUESTION: Does anyone have the precise differential of DPS? (Math) Like that, depending, we nerf or buff... Simple : ) It will also be necessary to see if each style remains interesting. Problem that we will always have : The bottleneck effect. That's why for me, the two-handed style should always be stronger (Not equal in DPS but slightly stronger). If not, I prefer short phases, there is less waste. Like : 10 HP Left. My two handed do 30 on 3s Two weapons do 15 on 1.5s Same damages, but advantage to two weapons style. My first attack kill the ennemy. And I could go back pretty quickly. Loss = 5. Total damage : 25. With my two handed. Loss = 20. Total damage : 10. The best exemple of bottleneck effect is obviously arquebuse... Edited January 14, 2018 by theBalthazar
hilfazer Posted January 14, 2018 Posted January 14, 2018 At the moment PoE2 is bad in this regard because dual wielding is always the best way to deal max damage. It makes no sense if you have many options if one of them is much better than all others because everybody will use this choice unless a) they seek a challenge and want to make their life harder or b) they are new players who do not know which option is best and then they might quit because they feel very weak after choosing something that seemed like one viable choice among others. Thats why I say: nerf dual wielding and buff the other styles so that we actually do have a choice between several options and one is not always better than the others. Or c) DW is OP and player wants to use a balanced option. I believe seeking a challenge is a pretty common behaviour. Vancian =/= per rest.
Madscientist Posted January 14, 2018 Posted January 14, 2018 I did a quick math test: I use the numbers of the fine weapons from the shop, ignore all modifiers ( stats like str, dex, con, acc, penetration ) and calculate the different DPS dual wielding fast weapons, dual wielding normal weapons and using a 2h weapon. I use the weapon with the highest and lowest damage from each category to see the extreme values. In order to get DPS, I look at the damage I do in half a minute. So the formula is: 30 / (attack + recovery duration ) * (average damage of the weapon) fast weapons: 0.5sec attack, 2sec recovery other weapons: 0.7sec attack, 3sec recovery attack cycle: dual wielding fast weapons = 1,5sec attack+recovery dual wielding normal weapons = 2,2sec attack+recovery 2h weapon = 3,7sec attack+recovery expected damage in 30 seconds: dual stiletto: 250 dual dagger: 300 dual flail: 184 dual sabre: 306 2h estoc: 170 2h greatsword: 227 result: Dual wielding does always do much more damage than using a 2h weapon, except when you dual wield the slow weapons with the lowest damage numbers. If you want max damage and you have enough penetration, dual wielding sabres or small weapons is always the best option. Once again: This is a rough guess using the fine weapons from the shop and ignoring all stats, acuracy and penetration. While I am not sure about the exact value of the +12acc for using a single weapon, I am sure it is much less damage than dual wielding the same weapon 1
SaruNi Posted January 15, 2018 Posted January 15, 2018 Ciphers have to build focus over the course of the fight, which takes time; they can't open the fight with their strongest powers in the way that a Wizard or Priest or Druid can. Because of that, I'd argue that cipher powers should be *very* fast-casting, to make up for the time lost autoattacking and waiting to build focus. Single-class Ciphers do actually start with enough focus to open the fight with one use of their strongest powers (for example a single-class Ascendant can start with 67 focus at level 9, and 5th tier powers cost 50 focus). After that though (first two or three casts) they do need to attack between casts.... Oddly, Whispers of Treason can be cast outside of combat, but not Puppet Master or Ringleader... an oversight, or more evidence for the ridiculous-seeming hypothesis that the devs were going out of their way to not make ciphers OP?
SaruNi Posted January 15, 2018 Posted January 15, 2018 CIPHER Tactical meld Expensive but this is 20 accuracy, and very fast category of speed. Perhaps...: Proposal : 1 allied target + Cipher (Tactic of : not a group, but two of us) Where are you getting +20 accuracy from for Tactical Meld? I just tested it again, and it doesn't give any accuracy for attacking the same target as the ally it's cast on (doesn't matter if using powers, ranged, melee, engaged, just not working at all, except for the +1 engagement). Bizarrely Tactical Meld can be cast outside of combat, despite being a pure buff, whereas Borrowed Instinct can't be cast outside of combat, despite having a hostile target.
KDubya Posted January 15, 2018 Posted January 15, 2018 I did a quick math test: I use the numbers of the fine weapons from the shop, ignore all modifiers ( stats like str, dex, con, acc, penetration ) and calculate the different DPS dual wielding fast weapons, dual wielding normal weapons and using a 2h weapon. I use the weapon with the highest and lowest damage from each category to see the extreme values. In order to get DPS, I look at the damage I do in half a minute. So the formula is: 30 / (attack + recovery duration ) * (average damage of the weapon) fast weapons: 0.5sec attack, 2sec recovery other weapons: 0.7sec attack, 3sec recovery attack cycle: dual wielding fast weapons = 1,5sec attack+recovery dual wielding normal weapons = 2,2sec attack+recovery 2h weapon = 3,7sec attack+recovery expected damage in 30 seconds: dual stiletto: 250 dual dagger: 300 dual flail: 184 dual sabre: 306 2h estoc: 170 2h greatsword: 227 result: Dual wielding does always do much more damage than using a 2h weapon, except when you dual wield the slow weapons with the lowest damage numbers. If you want max damage and you have enough penetration, dual wielding sabres or small weapons is always the best option. Once again: This is a rough guess using the fine weapons from the shop and ignoring all stats, acuracy and penetration. While I am not sure about the exact value of the +12acc for using a single weapon, I am sure it is much less damage than dual wielding the same weapon I did the math when the last update came out. DPS in ranked order Dualwielding accurate fast weapons 9.54 dps Dualwielding Sabres 9 dps Dualwielding fast weapons 8.67 dps Dualwielding spears 8.0 dps Dualwielding slow 7.95 dps Single wielding fast accurate 6.97 dps Single wielding Sabre 6.63 dps Two handed weapons 6.62 dps Single wielding fast 6.45 dps Single wielding slow 5.86 dps Single wielding spear 5.79 dps Fast accurate with shield 5.72 dps Sabre with shield 5.35 dps Fast with shield 5.2 dps Spear with shield 4.76 dps Slow with shield 4.73 dps I adjusted damage based on increased accuracy as trading misses for crits in a situation where acc=deflection, which gives +2% damage per accuracy. I also ignored penetration as its weapon based not style based. 4
theBalthazar Posted January 15, 2018 Author Posted January 15, 2018 (edited) With more bonus on dual wielding (two items) + More bottleneck effect for two handed weapons, Should be : Two handed weapons 9.54 dps Single wielding Sabre 9 dps Single wielding fast 8.7 dps Single wielding slow 8.6 dps Single wielding spear 8.5 dps Single wielding fast accurate 8.3 dps Dualwielding accurate fast weapons 8.2 dps Dualwielding Sabres 8.1 dps Dualwielding fast weapons 8.0 dps Dualwielding spears 8.0 dps Dualwielding slow 7.95 dps Fast accurate with shield 5.72 dps Sabre with shield 5.35 dps Fast with shield 5.2 dps Spear with shield 4.76 dps Slow with shield 4.73 dps Where are you getting +20 accuracy from for Tactical Meld? I just tested it again, and it doesn't give any accuracy for attacking the same target as the ally it's cast on (doesn't matter if using powers, ranged, melee, engaged, just not working at all, except for the +1 engagement). Bizarrely Tactical Meld can be cast outside of combat, despite being a pure buff, whereas Borrowed Instinct can't be cast outside of combat, despite having a hostile target. I think there is a bug, in the description there is **missingsomething** value "20" That's why I was thinking 20 = 20 accuracy. And the effect is not applied. When it was outrageously buggy, I pretended it was working. When it was perhaps buggy, I mentioned it. (because in this case, I am not sure that it will be corrected) Here in the case of Tactical Meld, I am sure that it will be corrected. Edited January 15, 2018 by theBalthazar
Madscientist Posted January 15, 2018 Posted January 15, 2018 @TheBalthazar: - Why do you think it should be 2h -> single wielding -> dual wielding? - How do you want to achieve this? My suggestion to lower the dual wielding speed bonus and increase 2h penetration was to make the difference between 2h and dual wielding smaller. Please note than none of our calculations involves panetration, so this buff would not be visible here. How do you want to change single wielding in a way that it can deal more damage than dual wielding?
theBalthazar Posted January 15, 2018 Author Posted January 15, 2018 (edited) - Why do you think it should be 2h -> single wielding -> dual wielding? 1) Two weapons with two bonuses. Especially since I found that POE2 will surely be more generous for unique items. 2) Bottleneck effect with near death foes. The less damage you do, the faster you do it, the less wasted. 3) And after, between single and two handed, and well two handed is longer, so deserves to be higher. Edited January 15, 2018 by theBalthazar
Madscientist Posted January 15, 2018 Posted January 15, 2018 OK, I understand what you mean. All of our calculations assume a normal weapon without special effects. If you dual wield two weapons and each of them causes a diferent status effect ( like a weapon with stunn on hit and a weapon with confuse on hit, or a weapon with stunn on crit and the other one does increased damage against stunned enemies), it can be more powerful than using a single weapon (1h or 2h) that can only have one of those effects.
theBalthazar Posted January 15, 2018 Author Posted January 15, 2018 (edited) each of them causes a diferent status effect Yes and ?... 1) Two weapons with two bonuses. That's what I say... 2h > 1h > Dual wielding : p Edited January 15, 2018 by theBalthazar
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