Resolve, Strength vs Might and Casting Time

[Witness41920]

I much prefer the stat layout as it is right now when it comes to casters. I never much cared for the "Might" attribute because while it seemed to be "spiritual" strength in its definition it was used as physical strength in scripted conversations and ability checks. So the game gave the illusion of a muscle-bound mage using brute force to solve problems rather than finesse and spells. 

 

I like having the abilities set up with a more clear division between what each one represents. 

[illathid]

I much prefer the stat layout as it is right now when it comes to casters. I never much cared for the "Might" attribute because while it seemed to be "spiritual" strength in its definition it was used as physical strength in scripted conversations and ability checks. So the game gave the illusion of a muscle-bound mage using brute force to solve problems rather than finesse and spells. 

 

I like having the abilities set up with a more clear division between what each one represents. 

 

what's wrong with muscle-bound mages? 

[Witness41920]

 

I much prefer the stat layout as it is right now when it comes to casters. I never much cared for the "Might" attribute because while it seemed to be "spiritual" strength in its definition it was used as physical strength in scripted conversations and ability checks. So the game gave the illusion of a muscle-bound mage using brute force to solve problems rather than finesse and spells. 

 

I like having the abilities set up with a more clear division between what each one represents. 

 

what's wrong with muscle-bound mages? 

 

Nothing at all if that's what you're actually going for. The problem is that the game didn't view "might" as anything OTHER than a muscle-bound character. I don't see a problem with mages that are muscle-bound, especially if they're spellswords or steelcaster or some other combination of magic and melee but you can also just have a physically strong spellcaster. 

 

My issue isn't with the concept, it's with the game perceiving all mages as such because of how "might" was scripted into the game. 

[divjak]

wizards didn't have to have high might, actually, best of their spells were of controlling nature, and that means you could go low or average might, with high perception and intellect.

At start of POE1 level 1 you could cast magic missile or oil, guess which one was nerfed :D 

 

 

I liked the might more than new strength, because every stat had some meaning to every class, and this doesn't change much, its just that now you will be choosing to do damage either with spells or implements.

 

Now we have issue of real muscle mage, holding wands and casting debuff/buff spells :D 

Edited January 5, 2018 by divjak

[Ninjamestari]

Did you feel PoE1 was forcing you to dump stats to 3 to powergame? The lowest I’ve gone myself is 6 or 7 and my characters were pretty powerful. In the latest beta build, the removal of Healing from MIG, along with a couple other changes, turned my build of choice from a powerhouse to a barely viable character—and that’s with 10 as a minimum score. Fun times!

 

You're not powergaming then, when you powergame, you go for the most powerful build, not for 'pretty powerful'.

[Ninjamestari]

 

I much prefer the stat layout as it is right now when it comes to casters. I never much cared for the "Might" attribute because while it seemed to be "spiritual" strength in its definition it was used as physical strength in scripted conversations and ability checks. So the game gave the illusion of a muscle-bound mage using brute force to solve problems rather than finesse and spells. 

 

I like having the abilities set up with a more clear division between what each one represents. 

 

what's wrong with muscle-bound mages? 

 

 

Everything

[Akos]

I've made this argument before so if I sound like I'm repeating myself just understand that its' because I really like the original concept behind might and its' implication on spell casters in that it allows them to break their traditional mold while simultaneously making their traditional mold make a lot more sense. 

Might is a measure of your physical and spiritual strength. It is stated as such directly in its' explanation within the game. It is not either or, and the game is not confused by acting like your mage character with 18 might is physically strong; he is. The implication is that the stronger you are physically, the more capable you are in exerting your spiritual energy to more powerfully employ the use of magic, or zeal, or mind control, or chi mortification. 

Something that has always bothered me about the classic intelligence wizard of DnD is that they are supposed to be the smartest character in the room by the way of their meta-game reliance upon intelligence for the basic premise of their class to function, and yet the vast majority of wizards that I've played with or role-played as approach their issues by exploding them with fire, which strikes me as a very simple solution for a character that is supposed to be the most intelligent person most people will ever know. 

Might being a measure of physical and spiritual strength allows for a physically powerful wizard who utilizes spells in the manner you'd expect of a physically powerful character; preferring brute force to overpower their adversaries with firebolts and lightning. Meanwhile the Intelligent wizard prefers crowd control to tactfully manipulate the battlefield in a manner that I would expect from a character who is supposed to be the highly intelligent. Both methods work, and having both methods available means that you can create wizards who are vastly different in character where as before every wizard I've ever played with was kind of just the same archetype. 

I liked the way Might and Intelligence functioned as it seemed to be a good marriage of game development and role playing opportunity. While I do agree that Resolve needs to be made more relevant in some way, I don't feel like turning Might into Strength is my preferred method of going about it. 

Edited January 6, 2018 by Akos

[Wormerine]

Might is a measure of your physical and spiritual strength. It is stated as such directly in its' explanation within the game. It is not either or, and the game is not confused by acting like your mage character with 18 might is physically strong; he is. The implication is that the stronger you are physically, the more capable you are in exerting your spiritual energy to more powerfully employ the use of magic, or zeal, or mind control, or chi mortification. 

 

And that would be perfectly fine, if the game would recognise that connection. It might be preconceptions brought with me from IE games but design of NPC spellcasters still very much played into D&D bookworm stereotype. If Obsidian would want physical and spiritual “might” to be connected, it’s all good.

[Beyond The Sea]

If an artist decides to change a feature of his work based on what 'seems to be popular', he ceases to be an artist and becomes just another craftsman marketing just another product. I wish Obsidian trusted their own visions more and took less feedback from the people. Chasing popularity just to end up delivering an incomplete vision is never worth it.

I think you forget PoE is based on popular old RPGs, based on the popularity or reputation of Obsidian. I can't think of any positives that outweigh the confusion and frustration new players experience when confronted with attributes. They are only part of the game because of popular tradition and consequently popular demand of old school hardcore fans.

[Wormerine]

 

If an artist decides to change a feature of his work based on what 'seems to be popular', he ceases to be an artist and becomes just another craftsman marketing just another product. I wish Obsidian trusted their own visions more and took less feedback from the people. Chasing popularity just to end up delivering an incomplete vision is never worth it.

I think you forget PoE is based on popular old RPGs, based on the popularity or reputation of Obsidian. I can't think of any positives that outweigh the confusion and frustration new players experience when confronted with attributes. They are only part of the game because of popular tradition and consequently popular demand of old school hardcore fans.

I think the overall idea has merit, even if wording is slippery slope.

 

Gromnir made a compelling post regarding devs following players wishes. I will let his own writing speak for itself:

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/95407-deadfire-failing/?p=1968377

 

Of course, ignoring freedback of your audience is arrogant and silly, but it is devs responsibility to make a game and they should follow their guts and personal vision. I like Del Toro’s quote that he hopes each of his movies will find their own audience. Problem is it doesn’t really work like that with crowdfunding. You already have an audience who funded the project. You should care to make a game that will satisfy people who backed it. Few people will be open minded enough to appreciate released product, if it won’t fit into what they have invisioned when they backed the project. Or it will deliver something else they didn’t know they wanted.

[divjak]

I've made this argument before so if I sound like I'm repeating myself just understand that its' because I really like the original concept behind might and its' implication on spell casters in that it allows them to break their traditional mold while simultaneously making their traditional mold make a lot more sense. 

 

Might is a measure of your physical and spiritual strength. It is stated as such directly in its' explanation within the game. It is not either or, and the game is not confused by acting like your mage character with 18 might is physically strong; he is. The implication is that the stronger you are physically, the more capable you are in exerting your spiritual energy to more powerfully employ the use of magic, or zeal, or mind control, or chi mortification. 

 

Something that has always bothered me about the classic intelligence wizard of DnD is that they are supposed to be the smartest character in the room by the way of their meta-game reliance upon intelligence for the basic premise of their class to function, and yet the vast majority of wizards that I've played with or role-played as approach their issues by exploding them with fire, which strikes me as a very simple solution for a character that is supposed to be the most intelligent person most people will ever know. 

 

Might being a measure of physical and spiritual strength allows for a physically powerful wizard who utilizes spells in the manner you'd expect of a physically powerful character; preferring brute force to overpower their adversaries with firebolts and lightning. Meanwhile the Intelligent wizard prefers crowd control to tactfully manipulate the battlefield in a manner that I would expect from a character who is supposed to be the highly intelligent. Both methods work, and having both methods available means that you can create wizards who are vastly different in character where as before every wizard I've ever played with was kind of just the same archetype. 

 

I liked the way Might and Intelligence functioned as it seemed to be a good marriage of game development and role playing opportunity. While I do agree that Resolve needs to be made more relevant in some way, I don't feel like turning Might into Strength is my preferred method of going about it. 

I totally agree, I actually preferred this system over DnD one, who says that manifesting powerful balls of fire is not physically exhausting, while lets say messing with minds needs a bit of attention to details and thought to it. 

 

the issue is if people who complain about might mages are a vocal minority, while most of the people just play the system, and dont complain because they like it

 

The biggest issue with people is when encountering something new, is that they have preconceived notions from previous experiences of how it should work, even when taking a look changes made in POE2 from POE1 lots of people think without checking that everything should work like they used to in previous games. 

The usual excuse by those people is " its not intuitive" which is in my opinion just excuse for i am just lazy and dumb, because most tooltips will say you exactly what you need to know. :D

Edited January 7, 2018 by divjak

[Jojobobo]

I think the crux of all the Might vs Strength debate is whether that truly is the devs' vision, or if they're just caving to more established genre tropes for broader?

 

As Might already was a distinct vision and implemented in that way to avoid dump stats, it feels like to go back on that they're compromising themselves. I guess none of this may be true, maybe the devs have wanted Might to be Strength for years, but it seems like to many that any kind of walk back from a more unique concept to a less unique concept isn't the devs making a bold decision at all - but actually weakening their original ideology towards game design.

 

I've seen a lot of, "Might wasn't implemented well in PoE 1 dialogue checks," in both this thread and elsewhere, and I thought I'd touch on that too. In my mind:

 

1) Characters with high Might are physically strong. Their weapons they wield do more damage to enemies than characters with low Might. Therefore the dialogue checks about doing things that require physical strength.

 

2) However physical strength ≠ muscle bound. I've mentioned elsewhere that if you take any of White Wolf's Vampire games (PnP, cRPGs, either oWoD or nWoD) vampires cease to physically change when they are made a vampire, but they can get physically stronger due to becoming more potent as a vampire. The strength itself, while it can be tied to being muscly, doesn't necessarily need to be tied to that at all. Conceptually, therefore, this is precedented in other games and people still "get it".

 

While I would have liked to see a few more approaches to Might indicating a sort of spiritual strength, the physical uses of Might always made sense to me personally.

 

I am also of the opinion if you can import the Watcher from PoE 1 (even if you don't import their attribute spread), then it makes sense to keep the mechanics more or less true to their originals. Beyond that, if guns are also benefit from Strength, that to me undermines the idea of Strength just being physical strength in the first place - there is clearly a sort of mystical component still even though they have re-branded it as Strength.

 

I really think the devs should be looking into ways to modify Resolve that don't take aspects from existing attributes, and they should beta test both approaches and see which one translates better. With their move from Vancian magic and an interrupt system, longer casting times certainly do make sense but as many people point out at this stage they are too punitive.

 

As "long casting times" is kind of a new mechanic to the PoE franchise, having Resolve tackle this mechanic by allowing it to reduce casting times makes perfect sense to me. It maintains the role of Resolve almost perfectly (Concentration in PoE 1 allowed spell-casters to better cast spells, reduced casting time would allow spell-casters in PoE 2 to better cast spells). While this gives spell-casters a lot more dependencies than other classes (Might and Resolve and Intellect), I think this is perfectly fine - massive crowd-controlling AoEs are a hugely beneficial property for a class to have, having a few more dependencies keeps them balanced with the single target damage classes IMO.

 

I guess the only issue with this approach would be what to do with Dexterity, as it already still reduces casting time. I would probably still allow Dexterity to increase the speed of all actions, but maybe increase the speed of physical attacks at a slightly greater rate (so 3% increased speed for all actions, 4% or 5% increased speed for physical attacks). Resolve conversely would be 4% or 5% or 6% speed increase for spell casting only.

 

Therefore, if you wanted an extremely fast spell-casting ninja, you'd need both Dexterity and Resolve - but for most builds just Resolve is necessary. This mirrors the existing PoE 1 system of weapon DPS, whereby if you want the highest possible DPS you both reduce recovery and increase Dex, but for most builds they just reduce recovery.

 

To me this sounds mechanically fluent, it keeps attributes true to their PoE 1 roots, and addresses the new mechanic that no one likes in PoE 2 - onerous casting times. I think long casting times are fine in light of moving away from both Vancian casting and an interrupt system, however to not allow the player base to reduce these casting times in any way feels like an un-fun punishment. If they're introducing a new limitation, this should be counterbalanced by a new benefit.

[divjak]

might does not need to be a spiritual strength at all, because all we know, manifesting high voltage bolts of lighting is not for the faint of heart

 

The way DnD developers thought of a system of how magic should work is not reality because we dont have magic in real life. 

The closest thing we have for reference in real life for magic is Gods of mythology flinging lightning balls, stage magicians, and cannibal tribes thinking that eating hearts and drinking blood will make them invulnerable. 

Neither of those dont give an impression of being wimpy and physically inept couch potatoes. 

 

Just because DnD system made it out so mages are wimps, does not mean that every game should follow same rule, and its not like you couldnt make powerful mage with low might in POE1, actually controlling mages who could dump might were arguably more powerful IMO 

Edited January 7, 2018 by divjak

[dunehunter]

@Jojobobo I remember John mentioned about let Concentration also give character power level, so what about let each point of Res boost any power level bonus by 5%. So if a buff or item gives u +1 power level. A 20 Res character can get 50% more power level from the Spell/item.

 

Since now almost all Spell bonus is tied to power level, boost power level seems to be an universal bonus for casters. Meleer still get deflection and some of their ability use power level, such as self buff ones so Res will not be a dump for them.

 

And one more thing is Empower, a 20 Res character can get 15 power level from Empower instead of 10, this make sense to me because a more determined person can make a harder strike when he gathers his inner power.

 

Maybe 5% is too much, but I just throw an idea here to make Res more useful.

Edited January 7, 2018 by dunehunter

[Wormerine]

The only real problem with “might” i had in PoE was that game itself was inconsistent in what it is. All of the above is fine. I am fine with might representing mystical capability of the character whenever it is using melee, ranged, guns or spells. I am fine with potent magic requiering physical strength of a wielder. But if the second is true, present mages as such, rather than traditional D&D bookworm, only sourounded by books, stuck in basements, without much light or excercise.

 

It’s not that “might” wasn’t a stat I was expecting to see (I found character creation straightforward and satisfying). I just count figure out what the stat represents and it seemed like game wasn’t convinced either. There was inconsistency between stat discription, how the stat was utilised incconversation and how high “might” NPCs were presented.

[divjak]

The only real problem with “might” i had in PoE was that game itself was inconsistent in what it is. All of the above is fine. I am fine with might representing mystical capability of the character whenever it is using melee, ranged, guns or spells. I am fine with potent magic requiering physical strength of a wielder. But if the second is true, present mages as such, rather than traditional D&D bookworm, only sourounded by books, stuck in basements, without much light or excercise.

 

It’s not that “might” wasn’t a stat I was expecting to see (I found character creation straightforward and satisfying). I just count figure out what the stat represents and it seemed like game wasn’t convinced either. There was inconsistency between stat discription, how the stat was utilised incconversation and how high “might” NPCs were presented.

 

 

that's true, but I think they included describing might as some form of spiritual strength just to appease to people with preconceived notion that for magic you dont need any form of fitness.

 

Might over strength system is way more robust and customizable system, which why I think is mechanically stronger and thus better for the game

Edited January 7, 2018 by divjak

[dunehunter]

@Jojobobo I remember John mentioned about let Concentration also give character power level, so what about let each point of Res boost any power level bonus by 5%. So if a buff or item gives u +1 power level. A 20 Res character can get 50% more power level from the Spell/item.

 

Since now almost all Spell bonus is tied to power level, boost power level seems to be an universal bonus for casters. Meleer still get deflection and some of their ability use power level, such as self buff ones so Res will not be a dump for them.

 

And one more thing is Empower, a 20 Res character can get 15 power level from Empower instead of 10, this make sense to me because a more determined person can make a harder strike when he gathers his inner power.

 

Maybe 5% is too much, but I just throw an idea here to make Res more useful.

Or make each point of Res grant you for example 0.1 power level. This is easier to understand and because not every class can get power level bonus.

[Jojobobo]

might does not need to be a spiritual strength at all, because all we know, manifesting high voltage bolts of lighting is not for the faint of heart

 

The way DnD developers thought of a system of how magic should work is not reality because we dont have magic in real life. 

The closest thing we have for reference in real life for magic is Gods of mythology flinging lightning balls, stage magicians, and cannibal tribes thinking that eating hearts and drinking blood will make them invulnerable. 

Neither of those dont give an impression of being wimpy and physically inept couch potatoes. 

 

Just because DnD system made it out so mages are wimps, does not mean that every game should follow same rule, and its not like you couldnt make powerful mage with low might in POE1, actually controlling mages who could dump might were arguably more powerful IMO 

I get what you're saying, and agree with it. But I think "spiritual strength" is a cleaner concept than bringing the real life physics of shooting lightning bolts out of your hand. It's hard to say really.

 

 

@Jojobobo I remember John mentioned about let Concentration also give character power level, so what about let each point of Res boost any power level bonus by 5%. So if a buff or item gives u +1 power level. A 20 Res character can get 50% more power level from the Spell/item.

 

Since now almost all Spell bonus is tied to power level, boost power level seems to be an universal bonus for casters. Meleer still get deflection and some of their ability use power level, such as self buff ones so Res will not be a dump for them.

 

And one more thing is Empower, a 20 Res character can get 15 power level from Empower instead of 10, this make sense to me because a more determined person can make a harder strike when he gathers his inner power.

 

Maybe 5% is too much, but I just throw an idea here to make Res more useful.

I'm sure that could work, but it seems like the casting speed itself is bumming people out the most. Maybe both could be added to Resolve to make it more relevant.

 

 

The only real problem with “might” i had in PoE was that game itself was inconsistent in what it is. All of the above is fine. I am fine with might representing mystical capability of the character whenever it is using melee, ranged, guns or spells. I am fine with potent magic requiering physical strength of a wielder. But if the second is true, present mages as such, rather than traditional D&D bookworm, only sourounded by books, stuck in basements, without much light or excercise.

 

It’s not that “might” wasn’t a stat I was expecting to see (I found character creation straightforward and satisfying). I just count figure out what the stat represents and it seemed like game wasn’t convinced either. There was inconsistency between stat discription, how the stat was utilised incconversation and how high “might” NPCs were presented.

As I mentioned, after saying casters must be physically strong to hit hard with their weapons:

 

"However physical strength ≠ muscle bound. I've mentioned elsewhere that if you take any of White Wolf's Vampire games (PnP, cRPGs, either oWoD or nWoD) vampires cease to physically change when they are made a vampire, but they can get physically stronger due to becoming more potent as a vampire. The strength itself, while it can be tied to being muscly, doesn't necessarily need to be tied to that at all. Conceptually, therefore, this is precedented in other games and people still 'get it'."

 

So, to me, all the physical intimidations options in dialogue make sense - though I would have preferred a couple of options that reflected a broader concept of Might making others more powerful.

[divjak]

If we put the fact that Might system is mechanically better aside, there were 5 playable NPCs in POE1 that were casters, Durrance, Kana, and Hiravas had higher might, while Aloth and grieving mother had low might.

 

I never thought that mother and Aloth acted strong, nor that Kana Hiravas and Durrance were physically weak, so they exactly acted according to their stats :D

Edited January 7, 2018 by divjak

[divjak]

 

 

 

I dont see how it should, we cant even define what spiritual strength is, i would argue that those who dont work out have low spiritual strength, because body is your temple :D 

[dunehunter]

I don’t think cast time issue should be fixed by any attributes, it needs to be fixed by itself, from its own mechanism.

 

If a fireball has same power as Minoletta’s Bounding Missile, then they have to be at same cast time. Now they are not. If a level 1 Spell is as strong as a level 3 Spell, then it should has longer cast or recovery time, versa vice.

 

I don’t think fix a problem by changing another feature is a good idea.

Edited January 7, 2018 by dunehunter

[Jojobobo]

I don’t think cast time issue should be fixed by any attributes, it needs to be fixed by itself, from its own mechanism.

 

If a fireball has same power as Minoletta’s Bounding Missile, then they have to be at same cast time. Now they are not. If a level 1 Spell is as strong as a level 3 Spell, then it should has longer cast or recovery time, versa vice.

 

I don’t think fix a problem by changing another feature is a good idea.

I think it depends on how you view casting time in general. Personally I see it as a new mechanic, as casting time wasn't at all the same in PoE 1. If they've removed a mechanic that effected casting time originally (interrupts being ubiquitous), and removed an advantage that went along with that mechanic from an attribute (Concentration), to me it makes logical sense that Resolve should now benefit from a new advantage that reflects the mechanistic changes that have been made in PoE 2 (longer casting time).

[AndreaColombo]

I agree to an extent. The devs wanted casting times to be longer and that’s fair; however, you can’t lengthen them to the point they aren’t fun anymore (as is currently the case) and then just put there a stat to ameliorate it. That’s poor design. The stat would be an absolute must-pump for all casters if they wanted to contribute anything to a fight before melee mopped the floor.

 

Casting times should be adjusted on their own. If you then want to have a stat influence them, it can be done though I expect balancing to be pretty tricky.

[divjak]

also BTW, i dont think stat that exemplifies stubbornness(resolve),  should be connected on how strong you can manifest your fireball, actually if i want to put something else in resolve that makes sense to make it worthwhile, that would be the duration of effects, aoe size fits intelligence very well, especially when bonus you get from intelligence avoids friendly fire.

 

as for casting times, well, there is new mechanics with the concentration, and the fact you can switch targets or move aoe placement during cast time is a good compromise.

You get longer casting times, but your spells are more flexible    

Edited January 7, 2018 by divjak

[dunehunter]

 

I don’t think cast time issue should be fixed by any attributes, it needs to be fixed by itself, from its own mechanism.

 

If a fireball has same power as Minoletta’s Bounding Missile, then they have to be at same cast time. Now they are not. If a level 1 Spell is as strong as a level 3 Spell, then it should has longer cast or recovery time, versa vice.

 

I don’t think fix a problem by changing another feature is a good idea.

I think it depends on how you view casting time in general. Personally I see it as a new mechanic, as casting time wasn't at all the same in PoE 1. If they've removed a mechanic that effected casting time originally (interrupts being ubiquitous), and removed an advantage that went along with that mechanic from an attribute (Concentration), to me it makes logical sense that Resolve should now benefit from a new advantage that reflects the mechanistic changes that have been made in PoE 2 (longer casting time).

Honestly I prefer they first fix cast time inconsistency. Then add whatever spell bonus to Res.

 

Any test or playthrough or feeling is based on a unpolished spell system now, which is inaccurate. Like we all feel fireball and summon spell takes years to cast, but spells like Bounding Missile are Ok to me. They are powerful and has a fair cast time.