Politics Thread: Silicon Valley Edition

[Gfted1]

Who cares what the US and a literal bunch of its colonies think either? Threats and intimidation and 9, nine, votes for. 5% support: how embarrassing.

Apparently everyone else in the world is butthurt over it to the point of wasting time in a non-binding resolution. That will show us!

[Chilloutman]

 

don't understand the point of todays UN vote to "rebuke" our decision to move our embassy to Jerusalem. Who cares what they think? And there's nothing they can do about it. I suppose it makes everyone feel more important

 

 

Who cares what the US and a literal bunch of its colonies think either? Threats and intimidation and 9, nine, votes for. 5% support: how embarrassing.

 

It will be even more hilarious if Trump tries to carry out his threats as that will play straight into China and Russia's hands and hasten the decline of international US influence even more. What's he going to do, cut Saudi Arabia off? South Korea? Rule 1 is don't make threats you can't or won't be able to go through with as whatever happens you end up looking weak or stupid, or have to do something monumentally dumb to not look weak. Much like Obama's Syria red line you end up with only bad choices, and Trump's judgement is so lacking that he might make the monumentally dumb choice instead. Well, a second stupid choice, since he made the Jerusalem one first, a decision even GWB baulked at making.

 

Trump admin is the Seymour Skinner of international affairs: Am I out of touch? No, it's everyone else who is wrong!

 

 

Dont forget about those 40 who abstained...

[Malcador]

21 no shows as well, interesting.  Hard to class abstentions as support or opposition, though.

[HoonDing]

WOW, that's a lot of countries to bomb!

[Zoraptor]

 

Who cares what the US and a literal bunch of its colonies think either? Threats and intimidation and 9, nine, votes for. 5% support: how embarrassing.

Apparently everyone else in the world is butthurt over it to the point of wasting time in a non-binding resolution. That will show us!

 

 

In all seriousness, politics is absolutely about 'pointless' posturing. It's wasting time when someone brings a resolution to the UNSC that they know will be vetoed yet it happens rather a lot, and it's mostly the US doing that bit of pointlessness. The whole point is to make Russia or China- or in this case the US- look like Neville No Mates and embarrass them, nothing else is expected.

 

In this case it isn't time wasting though, the UN is founded on the idea that you cannot just conquer bits of other countries any more yet that is exactly what Israel did to get East Jerusalem, and recognising Jerusalem as Israeli capital legitimises that. It's now on the record that the UN still maintains their position, whatever the US says.

 

As for butthurt, you can guarantee the vast majority of those voting for the resolution aren't even slightly butthurt about the US position, since it doesn't directly effect them. Instead they disagree with it since they think it's a dangerous precedent and, well, moronic. Which is completely different from butthurt. Maybe the 40 odd muslim majority countries are butthurt, but that's it. OTOH, Haley and Trump could do with a good dose of Prep H going by their response.

 

21 no shows as well, interesting.  Hard to class abstentions as support or opposition, though.

 

Most of the abstentions were from those who had to take the US threats seriously- like the Baltic States. I haven't checked but I'd bet that Ukraine didn't turn up at all, for example, as they cannot support annexation by force for obvious reasons, but also can't annoy the US. I expect their ambassador got locked in the toilets or had a pressing prior engagement literally anywhere else.

[Zoraptor]

Looks like the separatists have won the Catalonian elections with about the same majority they had previous, so no doubt there will be more fun to be had there as well.

[ShadySands]

snip

Thanks for that. I didn't understand why it was a big deal either.

[Zoraptor]

There is an additional reason why it's a big deal which is related to the annexation/ occupying power stuff, though it isn't directly a matter for the UN per se; the US is meant to be brokering a peace agreement between the Israelis and Palestinians. Realistically that would end with Israel with its capital in Jerusalem anyway and everyone including the Palestinians knows it.

 

All the recognition does with respect to the peace process is to remove leverage against Israel without any concessions granted and make the US look even more biased, while throwing 20 years of negotiations into the bin. Understandably even staunch US allies like the UK are deeply annoyed at that since they've both backed the negotiations wholeheartedly and backed the good faith of the US in those negotiations- to them the US is reneging on commitments and it's a yuge slap in the face. It's a great decision for Israel which now has even less incentive to make concessions, and it's an on the face of it great decision for Trump domestically as the response stokes jingoism and mobilises his base. It just happens to be an awful decision long term and for the US internationally, made worse by the childish threats.

[smjjames]

Looks like the separatists have won the Catalonian elections with about the same majority they had previous, so no doubt there will be more fun to be had there as well.

 

Yep, even though the parliamentary dynamics in Catalonia are a bit different, Spain is right back to square one. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-42450745

[Valsuelm]

"Nothing is immutable."

 

You are correct, mostly.

 

That said, there things as well as scenarios where that thought isn't likely going to get you much.

 

e.g.You're in a car going 120mph towards a cliff that's only 100 yards away, and the car is driven a lunatic who just popped their favorite song on the stereo. After a good amount of contemplating they have become convinced they can fly, convinced the car can fly, and they smile at you gleefully as they rev the car up even more for take off. All the while you sit in the backseat with no doors or windows large enough to jump out of. Up until a few moments ago you thought your friend was only joking when he said he could fly. 'Nothing is immutable' is true, but it's about to visit you in a way you probably wish it wouldn't.

Edited December 22, 2017 by Valsuelm

[Valsuelm]

 

There is some twisted irony that the UK voted yes....

 

One of the very few things that I can put in 'the next dark age isn't almost upon humanity' column, is that much of the world outside of the U.S. does see Israel as the evil it is.

Edited December 22, 2017 by Valsuelm

[Guard Dog]

OK, on the whole Jerusalem thing. I could never be a diplomat because I'm too rooted in reality. Choosing not to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel is just asinine. It is. The President is there, the Knesset is there, the treasury, defense ministry, etc are all there. That sort of makes Jerusalem the capital. Saying it's really in Tel Aviv does not make it so. So, that's that.

 

As not this being an impediment to peace negotiations, how is that going anyway? The US, the UN and others have been trying to broker a permanent peace there since the Six Day War ended. Not going so good is it? At what point do we realize no matter what concessions are offered half the parties (and sometimes ALL the parties) involved are not going to accept it? You know what the definition of insanity is.

 

Israel isn't evil. It's just a country. An artificial made up country that probably should not have been created since it was done so by third parties and at gunpoint. There was a lot of that going on after WWII. Well, you can't put toothpaste back in the tube. It's been 70 years and three major wars. It's not going anywhere. It is going to, like ever country does and should do, act in it's best interest for it's own survival and that of it's citizens. Failure by half the world to "recognize" it did not make it go away. So the whole recognition thing is stupid anyway. The sun didn't set just because you closed your eyes. 

 

Nikki Haley gave a speech at the UN that seems to have pleased a lot of people here. I don't see why. Are we going to kick the UN out of the country? Are we going to withdraw? Are we going to stop footing the bill? No? So that great speech was really just a bunch of BS wasn't it? Bluster without leverage (or at least the willingness to use leverage) is just empty and they all went ahead and condemned us anyway. Our cause would have been better served if she just got up there and read my first three paragraphs of this post. (Nikki if you need a speech writer PM me. My rates are reasonable). 

 

So now we've been "overruled" by the UN. Does that change anything? No. Are we supposed to feel bad or something? If you guys have not figured this out by now let me enlighten you; Americans do not sit around pondering what the rest of the world thinks of what our government, or the rest of us fore that matter, are doing. Usually we don't think of you at all unless we're talking to you or doing business with you or watching you kick our soccer teams ass. We're too busy trying to pay our bills and take care of our families to worry about that crap. 

 

I'd hate for you guys to think I'm telling you the UN is irrelevant. I'd hate that because I'd hope you'd figured that out a long time ago. It's a polite fiction, a lie we all tell ourselves. Wars still happen. Genocide still happens. Human Rights abuses happen and not only does the UN look the other way they put abuses in charge of committees to investigate abuses. Of course it really was conceived as a means to prevent another World War. But I think Robert Oppenheimer and company have done a much better job of that than the UN has. 

 

Just my $.02

Edited December 22, 2017 by Guard Dog

[Ben No.3]

Definitely not a diplomat. What you call „rooted in reality“, others might call „ignorant of the few achievements that have been made”.

[Guard Dog]

By rooted in reality I was more referring to acknowledging that things that are facts, as facts. Something diplomats don't really do.

[smjjames]

Isn't most of the MidEast made of artificial countries since the boundaries were drawn up to divide up the remains of the Ottoman empire at the end of WWI? At least going by your definition of an artificial country.

 

Anyhow, I agree with Guard Dog here, Israel has done a lot of things that would typically be condemned if done elsewhere, but they aren't evil by any means.

 

As for Jerusalem, there really is no easy solution there. Yes, it's the de-facto capitol of Israel, but it's greatly complicated by the fact that it's the holy city of three major religions and having the mosque on top of what remains of the temple mount definetly doesn't make it any easier.

[Malcador]

I'd hate for you guys to think I'm telling you the UN is irrelevant. I'd hate that because I'd hope you'd figured that out a long time ago. It's a polite fiction, a lie we all tell ourselves. Wars still happen. Genocide still happens. Human Rights abuses happen and not only does the UN look the other way they put abuses in charge of committees to investigate abuses. Of course it really was conceived as a means to prevent another World War. But I think Robert Oppenheimer and company have done a much better job of that than the UN has. 

 

Just my $.02

 

Wouldn't say it's the UN that looks the other way, absolving the 5 members with the cheat code that like to play games with people's lives by framing it that way.

[injurai]

I'm finding it irritating that Mecca and Medina are closed to non-Muslims, and Jerusalem is continually used as a wedge to further disenfranchised the Jewish peoples by shrinking the world that they can inhabit.

 

Coming off the coat tails of the Holocaust, and returned to a homeland which they were driven at knife's edge away from. It's no wonder that they have had to play turtle with knife. The world responsible for driving a people's from it's homeland, and the world responsible for the mass slaughter continue to take the least responsibility for their roles. Germany first of all should be ashamed to even show up for such a vote, the least they could do was abstain. Once again America bears the responsibility of eating Europe's sin, and the Middle East will never find end to hunting the Jew.

[Gfted1]

Werent Jews driven out of Jerusalem a few millennium ago? Jewish diaspora.

 

Why do they get to claim ownership for eternity?

[injurai]

You'll notice they don't have exclusive ownership. Israel is a highly diverse country. Unlike the surrounding region which is 98% Islamic with the rest mostly being Zoroastrian or other non-Abrahamic faiths.

 

Zionism was wrong, but it's done. Does the rest of the middle east claim ownership to their land for eternity? You can play that game endlessly, and as of now that region seems the least keen on globalization out of the whole globalized world. Yet they benefit amongst the most by it, and even further have tried to nationalize their land lottery.

[Gfted1]

 

 

The world responsible for driving a people's from it's homeland...

 

Oh, you mean "the world" as everything that ever happened in history, not anything to do with the last few thousand years. Got it.

[injurai]

That's not actually how I mean that. I mean the world limited to, the world of. That world.

[Guard Dog]

Drop a stone in a pond and the ripples spread: http://dailycaller.com/2017/12/22/australian-government-worried-us-will-take-jobs-after-massive-tax-cut/

[Epaminondas]

I don't mind people saying that we shouldn't lower taxes because we need the revenue. I don't even mind people saying we shouldn't lower taxes because the government can spend it better than the citizens. One is pretty standard liberal fare while the other is bat**** crazy, but at least both are principled arguments. What I do mind are lies about the tax bill. ...And the lies are counter-productive in that, when the goods start coming home to the tax-payers, they will realize that the detractors were lying. If I recall it right, both the Regan and Kennedy tax cuts were unpopular when passed and greatly popular over time. This tax bill has an advantage over Regan's in that everything can go into place straight away. It would have been nice if the Republicans hadn't been so idiotic as to take until the end of the year to get it through because it could have been retroactive for 2017. This might still hurt the Republicans in 2018 because the full effects won't really come into focus until the 2019 tax season, but it will be popular with people. I really could have used not having to run numbers to see whether I should itemize or take the standard deduction for this years taxes, but oh well. Middle class mooks just need to muddle through.

[Zoraptor]

You'll notice they don't have exclusive ownership. Israel is a highly diverse country. Unlike the surrounding region which is 98% Islamic with the rest mostly being Zoroastrian or other non-Abrahamic faiths.

 

lolwut, try ~91%. In terms of Israel's neighbours, literally none of them are 98% muslim, and their largest minorities are christians. Indeed, the palestinian population of the West Bank was 20%+ christian, though most have left now- due to Israeli pressure specifically. Every single one of Israel's neighbours except Jordan has a 10% or more christian minority. Lebanon even has 40%.

 

Isn't most of the MidEast made of artificial countries since the boundaries were drawn up to divide up the remains of the Ottoman empire at the end of WWI? At least going by your definition of an artificial country.

 

Most are not truly artificial countries- only Jordan, Lebanon and Kuwait are. And oddly enough 2/3 of those are theoretically fairly sensible religious ethnic mixes. Turkey, Yemen, Oman, Iran and Egypt are all old countries; Iraq and Syria are old provinces. The old colonial powers drew arbitrary lines on maps where there had never been true borders before, but, say, the general principle of Iraq/ Mesopotamia/ al-Iraqiyya and its general shape including areas with a lot of Kurds and the sunni/ shia split is a very old one. 1948 proposed Israel was 100% artificial though, whether it's still artificial now is a matter of opinion.

[Ben No.3]

By rooted in reality I was more referring to acknowledging that things that are facts, as facts. Something diplomats don't really do.

see, this is what I mean

Symbolism wields tremendous power