[BUG] Lashes from Wildstrike and priests' weapons get applied to spell damage

[Boeroer]

Hi,

 

if you cast a damaging spell while shifted and have picked wildstrike <whatever>, your spell will also get the lash.

 

Same thing if you are a priest and summoned one of the faith attuned weapons. The lash will get applied to damaging spells as well.

 

Bug or feature?

[hilfazer]

Might be a feature in case of Wildstrike as it was their original idea for PoE1.

[dunehunter]

I hope it is a bug. 

[SaruNi]

The description of Wildstrike refers to damage, not specifically weapon damage or damage from spiritshift attacks (just like the Restoration Druid's bonus to rejuvenation spells when shifted). It's one of the best features for a DD caster druid (+40% damage with the upgrade), which would otherwise be severely underpowered relative to Evoker et cetera....

 

OTOH the description of the Priest's summoned weapon gives no indication whatsoever that it would increase damage in general. But it also doesn't mention the lash at all. Perhaps the Priest's damaging spells are so underwhelming compared to PoE 1 because you're expected to summon the weapon first and, like the lash, they just forgot to add that to the description (or perhaps as in PoE 1 the better ones only come at later levels than the beta presents).

Edited December 7, 2017 by SaruNi

[Boeroer]

If it looks like a bug and rolls pills out of poop like a bug it usually is a pharmacist.

[SaruNi]

If it looks like a bug and rolls pills out of poop like a bug it usually is a pharmacist.

 

Biting Whip and the Chanter lash ability only apply to weapons, right? And they specify that they only apply to weapons in the description.

 

From a balancing perspective having Wildstrike apply to Druid spells seems reasonable and fits the description. The priest lash applying to spells isn't necessarily a bad idea but that does seem unintended ergo bug-like.

 

Even if you do summoned weapon + wildstrike lash (multiclass limited to 20% version in beta) with Cat speed that's probably around the same as what a Nature Godlike Evoker gets on average just for casting Deleterious Alacrity and the Missiles spells (which can't miss)... without having to wait for the summoned weapon.

Edited December 7, 2017 by SaruNi

[dunehunter]

 

If it looks like a bug and rolls pills out of poop like a bug it usually is a pharmacist.

 

Biting Whip and the Chanter lash ability only apply to weapons, right? And they specify that they only apply to weapons in the description.

 

From a balancing perspective having Wildstrike apply to Druid spells seems reasonable and fits the description. The priest lash applying to spells isn't necessarily a bad idea but that does seem unintended ergo bug-like.

 

Even if you do summoned weapon + wildstrike lash (multiclass limited to 20% version in beta) with Cat speed that's probably around the same as what a Nature Godlike Evoker gets on average just for casting Deleterious Alacrity and the Missiles spells (which can't miss)... without having to wait for the summoned weapon.

 

 

I don't like the idea that lash should apply to spells, if it does, then all lash should apply to spells, or all does not.

[SaruNi]

 

 

If it looks like a bug and rolls pills out of poop like a bug it usually is a pharmacist.

 

Biting Whip and the Chanter lash ability only apply to weapons, right? And they specify that they only apply to weapons in the description.

 

From a balancing perspective having Wildstrike apply to Druid spells seems reasonable and fits the description. The priest lash applying to spells isn't necessarily a bad idea but that does seem unintended ergo bug-like.

 

Even if you do summoned weapon + wildstrike lash (multiclass limited to 20% version in beta) with Cat speed that's probably around the same as what a Nature Godlike Evoker gets on average just for casting Deleterious Alacrity and the Missiles spells (which can't miss)... without having to wait for the summoned weapon.

 

 

I don't like the idea that lash should apply to spells, if it does, then all lash should apply to spells, or all does not.

 

 

The idea of a "lash" applying to spells does seem a little illogical and aesthetically unpleasing, but if they just call it a +% damage instead (of a "lash") it seems fine.

 

And it's not confusing if the tooltip makes it clear when the bonus will apply.

Edited December 8, 2017 by SaruNi

[Boeroer]

You can't seriously tell me that it's intended that if I summon a great sword that deals +60% (!!!) additional corrode damage suddenly all my damaging spells also deal +60% additional corrode damage. It's clearly a bug. No need to argue further. We can come up with lots of fancy explanations why this could be intended ("now the priest channels his spells through the weapons!") - but the simplest and obvious explanation is: it's a bug. 

 

I can't say if it was intended that Mith Fyr added a burning lash to spells as well in PoE - it did. I don't know if this was altered for Deadfire since I didn't test it yet. But as least in this case I don't summon a weapon with a 60% lash but instead put a weaker AoE-effect to everybody all around me with a chant (that might be intended to buff every damaging effect). Who knows. It was long known and not patched, so I guess it was intended.

 

With Wildstrike I don't know. They reduced the lash damage for Deadfire - so maybe applying the lash to offensive spells as well is an approach to balance the smaller lash numbers. I don't say I don't like it. It gives druid casters something special. But it's still worth mentioning in a bug report I guess because it's different from PoE without any explanation why. If it's intended they can easily make the description more on point to avoid more questions. Then the murky description is the bug, not the effect itself.
 

Edited December 8, 2017 by Boeroer

[dunehunter]

If Wildstrike can add Lash to spells, all druid offensive spell need to be rebalanced to match the damage with wizard. Because a high level druid can upgrade Wildstrike twice and get 60% lash damage bonus. So I'd rather think its a bug.

[SaruNi]

If Wildstrike can add Lash to spells, all druid offensive spell need to be rebalanced to match the damage with wizard. Because a high level druid can upgrade Wildstrike twice and get 60% lash damage bonus. So I'd rather think its a bug.

 

Currently the +40% bonus from upgrading once (all we have in the beta) combined with cat speed about matches the +30% echo and +2 power level bonus for a Wizard Evoker with Fleet Feet/Alacrity. If Druids will be able to upgrade a second time at higher levels then Wizards can be given high-level buffs as well (or more powerful spells).

 

Boroer as I wrote I agree it seems highly unlikely that they'd make such a major omission from the tooltip, even though the tooltip is clearly incomplete because it doesn't mention the lash at all. But while probably not intended, it would be an interesting way to let Priest DD spells equal Evoker or cat Druid spells (when you factor in DPS boost from speed self-buffs), though only after a long casting time. 

[Boeroer]

I agree that it would be a cool effect. But then I would prefer that they summon a trinket that fits the deity and that boosts spell damage (with a lash). Like those holy symbols in Eye of the Beholder or something.

[dunehunter]

 

If Wildstrike can add Lash to spells, all druid offensive spell need to be rebalanced to match the damage with wizard. Because a high level druid can upgrade Wildstrike twice and get 60% lash damage bonus. So I'd rather think its a bug.

 

Currently the +40% bonus from upgrading once (all we have in the beta) combined with cat speed about matches the +30% echo and +2 power level bonus for a Wizard Evoker with Fleet Feet/Alacrity. If Druids will be able to upgrade a second time at higher levels then Wizards can be given high-level buffs as well (or more powerful spells).

 

I think you should compare non subclass druid with non subclass wizard, druid has 60% lash bonus in late game, wizard has not. And you include wizard's spells into the comparison, which is not fair.

 

Btw if you wonder about the last 20% lash damage, take a look here

 

Edited December 9, 2017 by dunehunter

[Boeroer]

Where/how did you get that?

[JerekKruger]

Where/how did you get that?

 

It was shown briefly in one of the dev blog videos, along with a handful of other full ability trees.

[Boeroer]

Ah... and I thought you found some nice console command to unlock that stuff.

[SaruNi]

 

 

If Wildstrike can add Lash to spells, all druid offensive spell need to be rebalanced to match the damage with wizard. Because a high level druid can upgrade Wildstrike twice and get 60% lash damage bonus. So I'd rather think its a bug.

 

Currently the +40% bonus from upgrading once (all we have in the beta) combined with cat speed about matches the +30% echo and +2 power level bonus for a Wizard Evoker with Fleet Feet/Alacrity. If Druids will be able to upgrade a second time at higher levels then Wizards can be given high-level buffs as well (or more powerful spells).

 

I think you should compare non subclass druid with non subclass wizard, druid has 60% lash bonus in late game, wizard has not. And you include wizard's spells into the comparison, which is not fair.

 

Btw if you wonder about the last 20% lash damage, take a look here

 

 

 

Even so, Druids have to spend three ability points, including one extremely high level ability point. Whereas their Fury subclass only gets +1 penetration to druid elemental spells at the cost of cat druid speed. Cat Druid build for maximum spell DPS isn't technically a subclass, but since you're limited to that form for the entire game, it effectively is like a subclass (and without that speed bonus Evoker is strictly better, at least for the levels in the beta). And we *should* take base spell damage into account when deciding whether spell damage is balanced across classes (if the base damage of spell X is greater than the base damage of spell Y, but you can spend a skill point on a passive that makes Y equal to X...). High-level Wizard spells in PoE 1 were significantly more powerful than high-level Druid spells.

[dunehunter]

I don't wanna talk about the subclasses. My point is simple, if you apply Lash to druid spells, it will result a huge boost to all their blast spells (60% damage bonus as a multiplier). If the dev already balance the spell damage in POE 1, it doesn't make sense to me that they suddenly make lash apply to spells and mess up the balance of spells. It's weird if they let druid to have lash to spells, and balance it by giving wizard more powerful subclasses. Then what about priest and ciphers

Edited December 9, 2017 by dunehunter

[SaruNi]

I don't wanna talk about the subclasses. My point is simple, if you apply Lash to druid spells, it will result a huge boost to all their blast spells (60% damage bonus as a multiplier). If the dev already balance the spell damage in POE 1, it doesn't make sense to me that they suddenly make lash apply to spells and mess up the balance of spells. It's weird if they let druid to have lash to spells, and balance it by giving wizard more powerful subclasses. Then what about priest and ciphers

 

Every class has build options that allow for greater spell DPS. Cipher has Ascendant and Soulblade (and at least one greater spell penetration passive), Priests if they're like PoE 1 will have more powerful damaging spells at higher levels (and they could keep some version of the summon weapon lash applying to spells, in exchange for the long casting time). Spell damage has already been nerfed, with the assumption that a Wizard who wants to specialize in dealing DD with spells will pick Evoker (or possibly Transmuter, but really, Evoker). PoE 2 grants a limited number of talent points and very few high-level talent points so giving them up is a significant sacrifice. Druids also have a much more limited spell choice than Wizards do (because Wizards can use grimoires), so they make a more significant sacrifice of utility spells in exchange for those passives.

 

We don't know what high level abilities other classes will get, or how the high level spells will compare in PoE 2. We don't really have grounds to make judgments about high-level abilities compare just based on one late game Druid upgrade.

 

Also bear in mind that vanilla Wizards and Ciphers have significantly better CC than vanilla Druids. In PoE for most of the game Druids were better at DD spells and Wizards were better at CC. So the argument that vanilla Druid and vanilla Wizard need to have the same DD spell DPS doesn't seem particularly compelling. *And* Wizards get access to very good spellcasting self-buffs like Eldritch Aim, and probably even better ones at higher levels.

Edited December 9, 2017 by SaruNi

[dunehunter]

 

I don't wanna talk about the subclasses. My point is simple, if you apply Lash to druid spells, it will result a huge boost to all their blast spells (60% damage bonus as a multiplier). If the dev already balance the spell damage in POE 1, it doesn't make sense to me that they suddenly make lash apply to spells and mess up the balance of spells. It's weird if they let druid to have lash to spells, and balance it by giving wizard more powerful subclasses. Then what about priest and ciphers

 

Every class has build options that allow for greater spell DPS. Cipher has Ascendant and Soulblade (and at least one greater spell penetration passive), Priests if they're like PoE 1 will have more powerful damaging spells at higher levels (and they could keep some version of the summon weapon lash applying to spells, in exchange for the long casting time). Spell damage has already been nerfed, with the assumption that a Wizard who wants to specialize in dealing DD with spells will pick Evoker (or possibly Transmuter, but really, Evoker). PoE 2 grants a limited number of talent points and very few high-level talent points so giving them up is a significant sacrifice. Druids also have a much more limited spell choice than Wizards do (because Wizards can use grimoires), so they make a more significant sacrifice of utility spells in exchange for those passives.

 

We don't know what high level abilities other classes will get, or how the high level spells will compare in PoE 2. We don't really have grounds to make judgments about high-level abilities compare just based on one late game Druid upgrade.

 

Also bear in mind that vanilla Wizards and Ciphers have significantly better CC than vanilla Druids. In PoE for most of the game Druids were better at DD spells and Wizards were better at CC.

 

 

So you mean in POE 1 vanilla Druid has better DD than other casters and so let they have another 60% more in POE 2? 

 

When I'm talking about balance, I'm not saying every caster should have equal DD, I mean they are balanced, some can have more DD some have more CC, and now if Lash is allowed on spells, then this balance is messed up, and they need to balance it again. Doesn't make sense to me.

Edited December 9, 2017 by dunehunter

[SaruNi]

 

 

I don't wanna talk about the subclasses. My point is simple, if you apply Lash to druid spells, it will result a huge boost to all their blast spells (60% damage bonus as a multiplier). If the dev already balance the spell damage in POE 1, it doesn't make sense to me that they suddenly make lash apply to spells and mess up the balance of spells. It's weird if they let druid to have lash to spells, and balance it by giving wizard more powerful subclasses. Then what about priest and ciphers

 

Every class has build options that allow for greater spell DPS. Cipher has Ascendant and Soulblade (and at least one greater spell penetration passive), Priests if they're like PoE 1 will have more powerful damaging spells at higher levels (and they could keep some version of the summon weapon lash applying to spells, in exchange for the long casting time). Spell damage has already been nerfed, with the assumption that a Wizard who wants to specialize in dealing DD with spells will pick Evoker (or possibly Transmuter, but really, Evoker). PoE 2 grants a limited number of talent points and very few high-level talent points so giving them up is a significant sacrifice. Druids also have a much more limited spell choice than Wizards do (because Wizards can use grimoires), so they make a more significant sacrifice of utility spells in exchange for those passives.

 

We don't know what high level abilities other classes will get, or how the high level spells will compare in PoE 2. We don't really have grounds to make judgments about high-level abilities compare just based on one late game Druid upgrade.

 

Also bear in mind that vanilla Wizards and Ciphers have significantly better CC than vanilla Druids. In PoE for most of the game Druids were better at DD spells and Wizards were better at CC.

 

 

So you mean in POE 1 vanilla Druid has better DD than other casters and so let they have another 60% more in POE 2? 

 

When I'm talking about balance, I'm not saying every caster should have equal DD, I mean they are balanced, some can have more DD some have more CC, and now if Lash is allowed on spells, then this balance is messed up, and they need to balance it again. Doesn't make sense to me.

 

 

The 40% bonus for the levels we can actually compare right now is well-balanced with the main Wizard spell DD build (Evoker) or Cipher single spell DD build (Ascendant Soul Ignition). You only get one Druid talent point per level so having to use 2 of them (one of them a higher-level point) significantly limits spell choice. The Fury Druid subclass doesn't get any damage bonus, just penetration, whereas Evoker and Ascendant subclasses get both damage and penetration.

 

Even with the 40% damage bonus (which from reading the tooltip I always assumed applied to spells too), no one was suggesting that Druid spell DD is one of the best classes or in any way OP or even particularly good. It seems worse than Evoker, which several people have mentioned as a good spell DD class. To speculate accurately about whether an extra +20% from an end-game talent will make it unbalanced we would need to know what end-game abilities the other classes get. 

 

It's also more complicated than a direct comparison of damage %: spell DD has been massively nerfed by penetration/armor, misses, and casting time. Wizards have one fast-cast DD spell that never misses and another that does raw damage. In contrast, Druids have only one fast-cast DD spell and it does the most easily resisted damage, fire damage. And Druids have few ways around those difficulties in comparison to Wizards or Ciphers, because Druids have iirc no accuracy self-buffs, and the only penetration bonus is from the Fury subclass.

Edited December 9, 2017 by SaruNi

[dunehunter]

 

 

 

I don't wanna talk about the subclasses. My point is simple, if you apply Lash to druid spells, it will result a huge boost to all their blast spells (60% damage bonus as a multiplier). If the dev already balance the spell damage in POE 1, it doesn't make sense to me that they suddenly make lash apply to spells and mess up the balance of spells. It's weird if they let druid to have lash to spells, and balance it by giving wizard more powerful subclasses. Then what about priest and ciphers

 

Every class has build options that allow for greater spell DPS. Cipher has Ascendant and Soulblade (and at least one greater spell penetration passive), Priests if they're like PoE 1 will have more powerful damaging spells at higher levels (and they could keep some version of the summon weapon lash applying to spells, in exchange for the long casting time). Spell damage has already been nerfed, with the assumption that a Wizard who wants to specialize in dealing DD with spells will pick Evoker (or possibly Transmuter, but really, Evoker). PoE 2 grants a limited number of talent points and very few high-level talent points so giving them up is a significant sacrifice. Druids also have a much more limited spell choice than Wizards do (because Wizards can use grimoires), so they make a more significant sacrifice of utility spells in exchange for those passives.

 

We don't know what high level abilities other classes will get, or how the high level spells will compare in PoE 2. We don't really have grounds to make judgments about high-level abilities compare just based on one late game Druid upgrade.

 

Also bear in mind that vanilla Wizards and Ciphers have significantly better CC than vanilla Druids. In PoE for most of the game Druids were better at DD spells and Wizards were better at CC.

 

 

So you mean in POE 1 vanilla Druid has better DD than other casters and so let they have another 60% more in POE 2? 

 

When I'm talking about balance, I'm not saying every caster should have equal DD, I mean they are balanced, some can have more DD some have more CC, and now if Lash is allowed on spells, then this balance is messed up, and they need to balance it again. Doesn't make sense to me.

 

 

The 40% bonus for the levels we can actually compare right now is well-balanced with the main Wizard spell DD build (Evoker) or Cipher single spell DD build (Ascendant Soul Ignition). You only get one Druid talent point per level so having to use 2 of them (one of them a higher-level point) significantly limits spell choice. The Fury Druid subclass doesn't get any damage bonus, just penetration, whereas Evoker and Ascendant subclasses get both damage and penetration.

 

Even with the 40% damage bonus (which from reading the tooltip I always assumed applied to spells too), no one was suggesting that Druid spell DD is one of the best classes or in any way OP or even particularly good. It seems worse than Evoker, which several people have mentioned as a good spell DD class. To speculate accurately about whether an extra +20% from an end-game talent will make it unbalanced we would need to know what end-game abilities the other classes get. 

 

It's also more complicated than a direct comparison of damage %: spell DD has been massively nerfed by penetration/armor, misses, and casting time. Wizards have one fast-cast DD spell that never misses and another that does raw damage. In contrast, Druids have only one fast-cast DD spell and it does the most easily resisted damage, fire damage. And Druids have few ways around those difficulties in comparison to Wizards or Ciphers, because Druids have iirc no accuracy self-buffs, and the only penetration bonus is from the Fury subclass.

 

 

While you are arguing druid should benefit from the Lash, actually a Evoker/Priest of Magran can do much more damage thanks to Lash. Self-buff + Spiritual weapon, and toss your 4 Flame of Fans to enemies each does over 130 fire damage and chance to double casting. Which is way more powerful than druid with lash. 

 

The problem is not if druid's spell is strong enough or not, Lash create much more problem/unbalance issues than you could think. Making Lash works for spells will make any blaster without lash underpowered.

Edited December 10, 2017 by dunehunter

[Cdiaz]

You guys made me read two pages? TWO?

 

These were some really good insights though. I'm definitely on the, "This is awesome" train, but I've input a bug for Lash effects proccing off of spell damage. Now, it's in the devs hands. I hear they're easily bribed by chocolates.

 

But in all seriousness, thanks for the bug! We'll see how it all rolls out.

 

You the best,

 

-Caleb