Black jacket in the Spotlights

[theBalthazar]

Hello,

 

In an another topic, Lamppost in winter said :

 

I remember an interview that said Black Jacket had bonuses to Accuracy and Penetration when using the "correct" damage type against an enemy. I guess this was removed because it's basically the Devoted effect but for any weapon.

 

 

 

 

it deserves an entire topic and a proposition !

 

Why not grant a bonus when the black jacket target the lowest Armor rating ? 

 

AR : 10

Pierce : 3 Fire : 3 Corrosive : 5 Slash : 15

 

If the black jacket target Fire or Pierce resistance (3), he gain +x penetration.

Target Corrosive (5) : he does not win anything.

 

The concept is there. Change your weapons and adapt to the situation etc... This was an excellent idea.

 

It's not the same as the Devoted, because the devoted can not adapt. If devoted = slash weapon : The situation is not the same... More, Black jacket is actually one of the weakest class of the game. So +5 accuracy and +2 penetration against valid weakness of foes is a great idea. (3 for devoted = mastery of one, so less than 3)

Edited December 2, 2017 by theBalthazar

[Boeroer]

I don't think it's a practical idea. What if the AR of the enemy is all uniform? Let's say the enemy has straight 10s. Do you give a bonus for every AR the Black Jacket targets or none at all?

 

I think it's also weird that you get a PEN bonus for adapting to AR - because you already get better penetration just for doing that in the first place. Maybe a simple damage bonus would be better (strinking with more confidence, whatever). Then it wouldn't interfere with the Devoted at all and it also would be okay to grant it against enemies with uniform AR values.

Edited December 2, 2017 by Boeroer

[dunehunter]

To make BlackJack's feature useful, u need to spend two more ability points into Extra weapon set and Quick switch. That already makes u behind other fighters.

 

And it's really complicated and requires a lot micromanagement to make it reliable. Not my taste at least

[Boeroer]

Why? Black Jackets start with an extra weapon slot and with faster switching time. You don't need to take Quick Switch and Arms Bearer. You can and get 4 slots and a super fast switching, but the basic idea (adjusting weapon choice to enemy) also works well without that.

 

My problem with that class is that it's of no use if you have some meta knowledge - once you know which enemies will be in the next encounter the additional slot is pretty useless.

 

Then you can only use the Black Jacket for gun switching multiclass builds and that's it.

Edited December 3, 2017 by Boeroer

[theBalthazar]

I don't think it's a practical idea. What if the AR of the enemy is all uniform? Let's say the enemy has straight 10s. Do you give a bonus for every AR the Black Jacket targets or none at all?

 

 

In this case, I think there is no bonus. It is more logical.

 

Black jacket is like an opportunistic, so if there is no fluctuation, no gain.

[SaruNi]

If there were a lot of encounters involving at least three different sets of enemies, each one highly resistant to one weapon damage type... then it would be useful.

 

Perhaps also if you want to use disabling weapon modals (maybe with Barbarian's bonus to accuracy for proficient weapons, and berserk / wild sprint for extra speed) to bring down enemy will (Clubs), reflex (Flail), Fortitude (Morningstar), Accuracy (Wand), and/or armor (Mace) before CC (Berserker Yawp or Paladin Blind against Will, Into the Fray against Reflex or Mule Kick against Fortitude, not to mention all the caster spells that target will/reflex/fortitude without the huge accuracy bonuses that weapons get)....

 

Modal debuffs last for a base of 10 seconds, and you're much more likely to hit with them than with spell debuffs currently. So once you hit an opponent, unless you move onto another opponent, there's no reason not to switch weapons (if you don't get a significant penalty to recovery for doing so)....

 

Hopefully other weapons bring even better modals too.

Edited December 4, 2017 by SaruNi

[Ascaloth]

Then you can only use the Black Jacket for gun switching multiclass builds and that's it.

 

To be fair, the Black Jacket as it is now is ideal for gun-switching builds, isn't it? Extra weapon slot for four guns, extra weapon proficiency lets you use a wider variety of guns, and lack of Constant Recovery may hurt a front-liner, but isn't much of an issue for someone standing on the backline.

[ShakotanSolari]

 

Then you can only use the Black Jacket for gun switching multiclass builds and that's it.

 

To be fair, the Black Jacket as it is now is ideal for gun-switching builds, isn't it? Extra weapon slot for four guns, extra weapon proficiency lets you use a wider variety of guns, and lack of Constant Recovery may hurt a front-liner, but isn't much of an issue for someone standing on the backline.

 

The problem is that is pretty much the only thing the Black Jacket is good for right now, yet the class description describes them as "being skilled with a wide variety of weapons". Something more substantial than quick switch and an extra proficiency/weapon set needs to be done to really do that description justice and make giving up constant recovery a worthwhile sacrifice... either that or just change the class description to "black jackets are skilled at carrying lots of guns". 

Edited December 4, 2017 by ShakotanSolari

[KDubya]

I could see Blackjackets given Weapon Focus (the barbarian ability that gives you +6 accuracy with proficient weapons) at creation. That'd satisfy the 'master of many weapons' schtick.

 

Then you'd have Devoted with being the master of one weapon and Blackjackets being the master of many weapons. This at least would try and make up for the loss of regeneration which is massive. Much better than the current 'you can gun switch better than anyone else' niche they currently hold.

[dunehunter]

I really think it depends on how the enemies are designed, and if the player is a veteran or not. This subclass is a totally newbie-trap for new players. But might be useful in experienced players. 

Edited December 4, 2017 by dunehunter

[KDubya]

I really think it depends on how the enemies are designed, and if the player is a veteran or not. This subclass is a totally newbie-trap for new players. But might be useful in experienced players. 

 

Useful for what?

 

Besides making the game intentionally more difficult, its only the mass gun swapper that has a niche over any other type of Fighter and for that they give up what is probably the best Fighter ability that they have in the Constant Recovery.

[SaruNi]

If spell holding weapons return, Black Jacket will be amazing....

 

Sure you're not underestimating the debuff modals? Ranged debuff (prone, interrupt, -accuracy) -> melee debuff modal so CC will hit -> hit with armor reducing modal so penetration isn't an issue -> switch to damaging weapon. Or switch to weapon with defensive modal and shield if necessary....

[KDubya]

If spell holding weapons return, Black Jacket will be amazing....

 

Sure you're not underestimating the debuff modals? Ranged debuff (prone, interrupt, -accuracy) -> melee debuff modal so CC will hit -> hit with armor reducing modal so penetration isn't an issue -> switch to damaging weapon. Or switch to weapon with defensive modal and shield if necessary....

 

If its that great to have another weapon slot then a normal Fighter (or an Unbroken (who has some good bonuses)) can take Arms bearer and have the third slot. Which is what a Blackjacket gets. Sure the Blackjacket can spend the point on Arms Bearer and get the fourth slot but he'll never get Constant Recovery.

 

I believe that Arms Bearer is going to be available to everyone via the new General abilities with a weapon proficiency pick, or another way to put it is everyone can get a third slot for free.

[Boeroer]

Let's see. At the moment a Black Jacket is also useful in a solo game. You can do things like starting with a mace + modal, switch to a pike + modal and then use a great sword + modal. It is effective BUT it is the worst microchore I ever did.

Maybe if the whole process could be automated it would be great (if you could script your auto-attack sequences like "my auto-attacking should alsways be slot1/switch on hit/slot2/switch on hit/slot3/switch on hit repeat").

[dunehunter]

Let's see. At the moment a Black Jacket is also useful in a solo game. You can do things like starting with a mace + modal, switch to a pike + modal and then use a great sword + modal. It is effective BUT it is the worst microchore I ever did.

Maybe if the whole process could be automated it would be great (if you could script your auto-attack sequences like "my auto-attacking should alsways be slot1/switch on hit/slot2/switch on hit/slot3/switch on hit repeat").

 

And your script need to automatically turn on modal because they are defaultly off when switching

[Boeroer]

Yeah.

 

I hope they adress that annoying bahavior as well. At the moment switching weapons is a really tedious process.

[SaruNi]

Maybe the -25 Will/Fortitude/Reflex for 14 seconds (with max int) modals will be more useful once spellcasting is improved....

Edited December 4, 2017 by SaruNi

[zealotstim]

Maybe it can have a setting where you automatically switch to the most effective weapon against your current opponent (instantly?)? Or maybe a per-combat, instant cast ability that lets you switch weapons instantly for a short period of time--something that creates a really unique playstyle.

[blotter]

One way to make the subclass more appealing would be to extend its focus on martial flexibility/improvisation past weapons themselves and on to weapon proficiency modal abilities as well.

 

For example, black jackets might be able to apply weapon-specific modal abilities to other weapons that are of the same type (i.e., fast one-handed, large one-handed, two-handed, bows, implements, or firearms) and/or characters with the subclass might gain temporary benefits when they switch from one weapon modal to another; I'm considering this shifting modal incentive mostly in terms of some sort of battlefield rhythm/cadence, in which case lowered recovery time might work, but there are other ways to go with it, like making engaged enemies suffer penalties to deflection due to the black jacket's comparatively unpredictable fighting style.

Edited December 6, 2017 by blotter

[Lamppost in Winter]

One way to make the subclass more appealing would be to extend its focus on martial flexibility/improvisation past weapons themselves and on to weapon proficiency modal abilities as well.

 

For example, black jackets might be able to apply weapon-specific modal abilities to other weapons that are of the same type (i.e., fast one-handed, large one-handed, two-handed, bows, implements, or firearms) and/or characters with the subclass might gain temporary benefits when they switch from one weapon modal to another

 

Dunno about the benefits of switching modals, could get tedious (personally I don't think I could stomach doing a quick-switch gun build). But I quite like the idea of Black Jackets being able to apply modals from other weapons.