The stat change will have all sorts of knock-on effects, and it may force Obsidian to adjust specific classes that were balanced around Might. But I think panic about the entire change being ruinous should probably wait until we've had our hands on the update for a few weeks. The mere fact that a certain build's numbers won't match its POE numbers doesn't necessarily mean that build won't feel effective or fun in Deadfire.

there will be needed changes.  make limited changes to individual classes.  is another good reason for keeping the classes discrete and insular.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

I don't get why so many people focus on balance here. You can still buff parts of ciphers you know? What the stats do is a fundamental design decision and that's what should be looked at.

 

If they want to get rid of a dump stat they didn't succeed because most casters will skip strength now, but I think for the overall design and immersion, that comes with stats, this is a change for the better. I love playing priests and it was always weird to me how they didn't need resolve at all. Paladins now have the choice if they want to be a strong high damage zealot or the resolute defensive healer.

Because it's not just Ciphers who are affected, and that a mathematically unbalanced game is not enjoyable for those who have to deal with it? Also you say you love playing Priests, but they are also one of the classes adversely effected by this change. Under this new change you will need Strength, Dexterity, Intelligence and Resolve, As opposed to Might, Dexterity and Intelligence of old.

 

The reason this is so bad is that Priests although not to the degree of Ciphers, still relied on their weapon. For a majority of their career their spells are about strengthening themselves and their allies. You don't think it's immersion breaking for a priest of Berath to absolutely suck with his greatsword because it was the only way for his spells to matter at all?

 

As i said in the previous thread lets take two statlines. This is with a Death Godlike who is a multiclass Priest of Berath/Devoted fighter to fully realized the RP of the Pallid Knight.

Old System

Might:18

Constitution:8

Dexterity:19

Perception:10

Intelligence:19

Resolve:3

 

New System

Might:14

Constitution:8

Dexterity:10

Perception:10

Intelligence:18

Resolve:17

 

That is a -5% loss in duration, -6% loss in AoE size, a -27% action speed , -18 Ref, -12% melee damage, -8 Fort

 

These are not little things, these are very large losses in overall efficiency. And if i were to run with a Cleric using the former statline just buffing myself and striding into combat. Not only will i have lost any ability to heal myself, but the Priest bonus spells per power level will be completely wasted as i have no ability to damage anything with them

 

 

Somewhere in the equation you accidentally missed the +26 will and +14 deflection he gets in return.

 

However, it doesn't matter anyway, because the important thing is not how the change affects specific classes or builds, because those can be changed afterwards. Stats' functionality is a fundamental design, and the goal to achieve here is for the system to provide as much meaningful and tough choices as possible, while reducing no-brainer choices, and this change probably comes closer to that. Specific classes and abilities can be tailored afterwards based on how stats work, not the other way around.

 

While the bonus would be only +7 Deflection and +14 will, yes these would indeed go up. I did not mean to to seem disingenuous. I would disagree about the no-brainer choices however. Under the intended changes Pure casters will only gain in power, hybrids will find themselves spread too thin and Monks, Fighters, Rouges and Barbarians will still all dump Resolve as they all have before.

Also do you not find it counter intuitive to have to go back and re-balance from the ground up because of such a change? Domino effects are hard to deal with. For example many people in the other thread were saying that because Resolve not only governed spell power but deflection as well that casters were now going to have higher deflection than martials.

Some were suggesting the removal of the deflection component, some were saying that wizards base deflection should go down to compensate. At what point do you draw the line?

, then we got two words for those who says the new resolve means a cipher can't get the job done: grieving mother

 

https://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Grieving_Mother

 

played in deadfire, grieving mother would be almost identical efficacious.  tell us you can't manage to build a deadfire cipher with a 12 in strength and resolve? how many o' us had grieving mother top party damage totals on potd runs?  only meaningful changes to cipher mechanics for deadfire is not actual cipher mechanics: penetration and casting time/recovery.  so build another grieving mother and give her penetrating weapons... and tell us how she don't get the job done.

 

but it won't be the same as your poe cipher, right?  

 

*snort*

 

 

 

That isn't an argument, it's just a snort.

 

Theoretically with enough willpower and time you can make almost any build work. You could probably finish a solo POTD run with a character who never took any stats past 10 and just abandoned all the starting ability points if you wanted to and had enough free time and patience to keep reloading. Just because something can be forced to work doesn't mean it's a good or even a functional design. I could clean my kitchen floor with my tongue if I wanted to, but I don't want to, I'd rather use a broom, it works better.

 

However you slice it, this change means ciphers, especially single class ciphers, have to give up some critical class role that they had before -- either weapon damage, or spell damage, or CC ability, or something else -- and due to the "pipeline" nature of the focus mechanic, that's going to have secondary effects too, resulting in an overall dramatic loss of function for the class. 

 

However you slice it, this change means ciphers, especially single class ciphers, have to give up some critical class role that they had before -- either weapon damage, or spell damage, or CC ability, or something else -- and due to the "pipeline" nature of the focus mechanic, that's going to have secondary effects too, resulting in an overall dramatic loss of function for the class. 

 

you haven't as yet shown how ciphers need give up any kinda class role... but thanks for being honest and revealing this as another nostalgia/entitlement issue.  you haven't provided math to prove their ineffectiveness in light o' a change, that is for sure. if a deadfire cipher starts with a 14 strength instead of benefiting from an 18 might, then yeah, you will see less weapon damage.  such does not mathematical show how the 14 strength cipher is boned/unable to fill roles/whatever.  just as grieving mother were hardly prevented from fulfilling any critical cipher role with her 11 might, a few points shaved from a starting cipher's deadfire strength is only giving up critical class role if you are ridiculous attached to optimized builds you created in poe.

 

and Gromnir is not some kinda willpower master who plays horribly gimped builds just to prove a point. our garbage priest stat build were chosen 'cause it were effective.  we have, more than once, chastised the rp purists who seem to suggest games need be punishing, or some such nonsense.  our current deadfire vanilla cipher, with 15 might and 14 resolve is highly efficacious.  if she were sucky, we woulda' been complaining... as we has already complained 'bout so many other things. 

 

am s'posing in addition to our towering willpower, which allows us to muscle numerous horribly gimped builds through potd runs, we is also a zen master who quietly accepts whatever game is put in front o' us?  anybody who has had even a tiny bit o' interaction with us on these boards is gonna dismiss such a characterization as fantastical hokum.  meek acceptance from Gromnir? 

 

HA! Good Fun!

You know, this thread really ought to have been titled "How does the new Resolve resolve anything".

you haven't as yet shown how ciphers need give up any kinda class role... b

 

 

 

Yeah I have. 

 

Ciphers have basically three core roles: weapon damage, spell damage, and debuff/CC.  Splitting the damage bonus between Str and Resolve means that ciphers are going to have to give up -- all else being equal and depending on stat spread, -- either about 20 to 24% of their weapon damage (if they drop Might to boost Res), about the same range of spell damage (if they drop Res to boost Might), or a corresponding loss to their CC ability by reducing their spell effect durations and areas (if they drop Int to keep Res and Might both topped off). There are other options also -- for example, as you point out, they can just not use the half of their power tree that does damage -- but if they do that they're surrendering a function (spell damage) that before this change they didn't have to surrender.  They do get pick which class function they surrender but they have to surrender one of them. (Where "surrender" in this context means "take a 20% hit in effectiveness")

 

That's presuming optimal play and stat allocation elsewhere and ignoring secondary effects (i.e., if Ciphers drop Might to boost Resolve, they'll lose focus gain in a corresponding proportion, etc.) 

Edited November 29, 20178 yr by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

 

 

 

you haven't as yet shown how ciphers need give up any kinda class role... b

 

 

Yeah I have.

 

Ciphers have basically three core roles: weapon damage, spell damage, and debuff/CC. Splitting the damage bonus between Str and Resolve means that ciphers are going to have to give up -- all else being equal and depending on stat spread, -- either about 20 to 24% of their weapon damage (if they drop Might to boost Res), about the same range of spell damage (if they drop Res to boost Might), or a corresponding loss to their CC ability by reducing their spell effect durations and areas (if they drop Int to keep Res and Might both topped off). There are other options also -- for example, as you point out, they can just not use the half of their power tree that does damage -- but if they do that they're surrendering a function (spell damage) that before this change they didn't have to surrender. They do get pick which class function they surrender but they have to surrender one of them. (Where "surrender" in this context means "take a 20% hit in effectiveness")

 

That's presuming optimal play and stat allocation elsewhere and ignoring secondary effects (i.e., if Ciphers drop Might to boost Resolve, they'll lose focus gain in a corresponding proportion, etc.)

Is not being able to have 18 STR AND 18 RES going to make it impossible to complete the game as a Cipher?

 

Is not being able to have 18 STR AND 18 RES going to make it impossible to complete the game as a Cipher?

 

 

 

I don't think that's a useful question to ask. Theoretically I'm pretty sure almost any given build could complete the game. 

 

But some builds are more effective than others and, generally speaking, people tend to view more effective and more versatile builds as more fun. It's variable from player to player and build to build,sure. But generally speaking, a build that puts out 25% more damage will be viewed by most players as more fun and useful than a build that's otherwise identical but only does 3/4ths of the damage. 

 

 

you haven't as yet shown how ciphers need give up any kinda class role... b

 

Yeah I have.

 

Ciphers have basically three core roles: weapon damage, spell damage, and debuff/CC. Splitting the damage bonus between Str and Resolve means that ciphers are going to have to give up -- all else being equal and depending on stat spread, -- either about 20 to 24% of their weapon damage (if they drop Might to boost Res), about the same range of spell damage (if they drop Res to boost Might), or a corresponding loss to their CC ability by reducing their spell effect durations and areas (if they drop Int to keep Res and Might both topped off). There are other options also -- for example, as you point out, they can just not use the half of their power tree that does damage -- but if they do that they're surrendering a function (spell damage) that before this change they didn't have to surrender. They do get pick which class function they surrender but they have to surrender one of them. (Where "surrender" in this context means "take a 20% hit in effectiveness")

 

That's presuming optimal play and stat allocation elsewhere and ignoring secondary effects (i.e., if Ciphers drop Might to boost Resolve, they'll lose focus gain in a corresponding proportion, etc.)

Is not being able to have 18 STR AND 18 RES going to make it impossible to complete the game as a Cipher?

 

'course not, which is what makes this so sad.  create a vanilla deadfire cipher with 14 might and 14 resolve.  make certain to take body attunement when you are able.  unless you do something odd, you are gonna have the best damage-dealer when dropped into the provided mercenary party.  IF you insist on maximizing both power damage and weapon damage, which doesn't seem like a necessity unless you retreat to entitlement complaints, then you gotta make hard choices.  looking at a level 1 comparison, (and lord only knows why you would do so) the 4 point difference might feel overwhelming if you have only bothered to ever play optimized stat speads.  sure, for such complaints to be meaningful one must ignore the benefits from increased will and deflection as well, but by mid and later portions o' the game, 4 points is hardly punishing.

 

and again, the argument were how with the resolve changes functional removing an obvious dump stat, the cipher can't get the job done.  not our words. 

 

Grieving Mother.

 

could grieving mother get the job done in poe?  did you need force gimp yourself to keep her in your party?  'course not. 

 

is axiomatic, so am not certain why it need be said, but there shouldn't be any dump stats. make every stat choice hard should be the goal.  every class should be as tough as cipher.  cipher is the example o' the stats done right, not wrong.

 

oh, and to the earlier comment from the doctor 'bout us obviously not having played much cipher...

 

HA!

 

am current at 94 hours o' beta, and 'bout half the time we got a cipher in our party.  spent much time making hybrid builds, but honest, for cipher, chanter and wizard, am finding vanilla is our preferred way to play.  lack o' grazes, penetration, casting/recovery times is not changes to the cipher per se, and they is all current easily marginalized.  as we noted 'bove, one o' our favorite cipher approaches is the great sword wielder.  horrible penetration, but with body attunement, expose vulnerabilities, and/or a chanter, penetration is not a problem... albeit is too essential.  grazes?  first cast from a priest is dire blessing. problem solved.  again, is too vital, but is not a current limitation to making an effective cipher. etc.

 

regardless, we got plenty o' time with a cipher, most o' whom has identical stat spreads as we is testing how we would actual play'em in deadfire at release. 15,10,10,13,16,14. is not only viable but is highly effective.  y'know how the change to resolve affects us?  not at all.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited November 29, 20178 yr by Gromnir

 

 

 

you haven't as yet shown how ciphers need give up any kinda class role... b

 

Yeah I have.

 

Ciphers have basically three core roles: weapon damage, spell damage, and debuff/CC. Splitting the damage bonus between Str and Resolve means that ciphers are going to have to give up -- all else being equal and depending on stat spread, -- either about 20 to 24% of their weapon damage (if they drop Might to boost Res), about the same range of spell damage (if they drop Res to boost Might), or a corresponding loss to their CC ability by reducing their spell effect durations and areas (if they drop Int to keep Res and Might both topped off). There are other options also -- for example, as you point out, they can just not use the half of their power tree that does damage -- but if they do that they're surrendering a function (spell damage) that before this change they didn't have to surrender. They do get pick which class function they surrender but they have to surrender one of them. (Where "surrender" in this context means "take a 20% hit in effectiveness")

 

That's presuming optimal play and stat allocation elsewhere and ignoring secondary effects (i.e., if Ciphers drop Might to boost Resolve, they'll lose focus gain in a corresponding proportion, etc.)

Is not being able to have 18 STR AND 18 RES going to make it impossible to complete the game as a Cipher?

 

According to some people around here it seems anything below 18 is garbage. 

Might was never that important for Cipher autoattack damage in Pillars 1 anyway. Every Cipher has Soul Whip, and almost every Cipher takes Biting Whip as well. That means a Cipher starts at 140% damage by default. Might is additive, not multiplicative, so that first point of Might makes a mere ~2.1% absolute difference rather than 3% like it would for another class with less inherent damage buffs. If we're talking about dropping from 18 to 14 Might, you're looking at 164% vs 152%, which is only a 7.3% decrease. And this is all assuming you don't have some other additive multipliers to damage.

 

This is also the reason Might is less important on Rogues than many people think.

Might is multiplicative in Deadfire.

Anybody know if that's intentional? The simple additive percentages of the first game were rather more intuitive, by design if I recall correctly.

Anybody know if that's intentional? The simple additive percentages of the first game were rather more intuitive, by design if I recall correctly.

 

 

My guess is that it created an imbalance with Dex, which was inherently multiplicative (though also not fully 3% due to irreducible frames etc.). 

 

They seem to have moved to multiplicative, percentage based calculations across the board (see, e.g., AR vs DR).

 

Note that in Deadfire you also cannot take both Biting Whip and Draining Whip: you have to choose one, and given that they have also reduced the base focus gain rate from 35% to 25%, Draining is preferable if you want to cast. So the above calculations that include Biting Whip need to be changed to reflect that also. 

 

This isn't a change in isolation; it's on top of a lot of other things that also contribute to the Cipher problem. 

Edited November 30, 20178 yr by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

Well, like Josh wrote on Twitter, the change did address a pretty serious problem with Resolve and some bad balance in the attribute system, so it needed a top-down adjustment. These tiny bottom-up fixes are easier to slip in and adjust as needed, no?

It didn't solve the dump stat problem, just shifted it to a different stat.

Might was never that important for Cipher autoattack damage in Pillars 1 anyway. Every Cipher has Soul Whip, and almost every Cipher takes Biting Whip as well. That means a Cipher starts at 140% damage by default. Might is additive, not multiplicative, so that first point of Might makes a mere ~2.1% absolute difference rather than 3% like it would for another class with less inherent damage buffs. If we're talking about dropping from 18 to 14 Might, you're looking at 164% vs 152%, which is only a 7.3% decrease. And this is all assuming you don't have some other additive multipliers to damage.

 

This is also the reason Might is less important on Rogues than many people think.

 

In PoE the more damage adds you had the less you needed Might. As you stated that meant Rogues and Ciphers could be really effective with a base 10 Might and utilize the stats elsewhere.

 

Deadfire now has Might (and I'd assume Resolve will be the same) as multiplicative. This means that the more damage adds that you have the more you want to have Might. This way you multiply a bigger number to get an even bigger number.

Oh, wow. That's a big change. I bet it's a large reason autoattackers seem overpowered right now, unless they've drastically retuned everything else.

BMac said they are still thinking about this and wasn't sure if it stays this way. Let's wait and see.

Edited November 30, 20178 yr by Boeroer

BMac said they are still thinking about this and wasn't sure if it stays this way. Let's wait and see.

 

I like it in theory, as it sets Attributes apart from other bonuses, but of course it has to be balanced against other bonuses as it could rapidly become too powerful.

BMac said they are still thinking about this and wasn't sure if it stays this way. Let's wait and see.

agreed on wait 'fore resorting to more hair pulling and face rending.  the numbers is not quite working as some folks believe 'em to be anyway.  our +35 might helwalker monk builds, even when overcoming ar, is not doing game breaking melee damage.  yeah, when taking advantage o' the limited situation where you are able to achieve self-replicating crits, the helwalker is producing insane numbers.  even now, the practical difference 'tween the helwalker with starting might of 14 v. 18 is difficult to see via combat logs as one crit during an encounter more or less wipes out the actual numbers advantage.

 

is also worth keeping in mind how in spite o' the s'posed huge impact o' might, most o' us ain't seeing our poe builds producing vast more damage in deadfire than they were in poe... save for dual wielding sabres (or whatever) and facing virtual no recovery.  is not as if a 10 might cipher monk is capable o' doing less damage than they was in poe.  10 might cipher were capable o' doing ridiculous amounts o' hurt.  the argument is an 18 might deadfire cipher is now capable o' doing vast more damage than were a 18 might poe cipher. is a much different thing when suggesting ciphers is somehow gimped by the change... and again, is not working as folks believe.

 

if might were so essential, then everybody would be playing helwalker/_______, 'cause you functional start every combat encounter with +3 might. might be worth it if a few o' the folks complaining makes some helwalker/soul blade hybrids before might/resolve are altered. is fun builds, but is not performing as many here is imagining based on their assumptions 'bout might.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited November 30, 20178 yr by Gromnir