The mechanics of Full Attack/Primary Attack are bad

[Boeroer]

Hi,
 

First thing:

did you ever ask yourself why Backstab is best done with an arquebus or a great sword? Because obviously those are the weapons with the highest base damage, and since Backstab's bonus is only applied to the first swing/shot it's best to use a weapon that hits as hard as possible.

 

Now imagine your superstealthy rogue sneaking up on people with his great sword *sneaky sneak sneak* "nobody sees me while I take a biiig swing".

Or even worse, how he holds his arquebus, point blank, to the head of an enemy... Erm, yeah. 

 

Then this:

Flames of Devotion is a nice ability, right? It gives you a good damage bonus but is quite limited in use. So in this case you'd also want to bring the heavy hitting weapons with high damage per hit in order to get the most dmaage out of FoD. But it's a Full Attack, so you can use heavy one handers and get two swings with FoD - or you use a great sword or an arquebus or even dual pistols or whatever. Anything that does the most damage with one or dual swing/shot.

 

This is the situation with every ability that has limited number of uses and derives its damage from your weapon (and which is primarily used to deal damage).

 

You don't want to use light, fast weapons for those attacks. Because they suck with Backstab, FoD and other similar abilities like FInishing Blow and whatnot.

 

Why on earth is a Full Attack not implented as a series of blows/shots that takes the speed of the weapon into account? This would make light weapons a competitor for Backstabs, FoD and so on.

 

At the moment the quickness of a weapon doesn't matter for Full Attacks. If you're holding two war hammers or two daggers: you get two swings for your Full Attack ability.

 

Imagine if a Full Attack was balanced in a way that it would end up with roughly the same amount of damage dealt (generally speaking, has to be balanced around base damage and PEN):

 

- Full Attack with dual light, fast one handers: you get 4 strikes (mainhand-offhand-mainhand-offhand)

- Full Attack with dual heavy one handers: you get 2 strikes (mainhand - offhand)
- Full Attack with a light one hander and a heavy one hander: 3 strikes

- Full Attack with a light two hander (think of estoc with low base damage): 2 strikes
- Full Attack with a heavy two handed weapon (like great sword): 1 strike

- Full Attack with a bow: maybe 2 shots or only one - depending on the damage and speed
- Full Attack with guns: 1 shot

 

That would make light weapons viable for all those abilites as well. And it also makes sense that you can place some more hits with a light weapon when executing a special ability.

 

So, a Backstab coul be a series of quick stabs with a dagger or stiletto OR one mighty swing with a great sword.

What Do you think? 

Edited November 27, 2017 by Boeroer

[Aramintai]

I like this idea, backstab is indeed unfair to light weapons.

[mostundesired]

Not only do I like that for numbers and damage, that idea personally appeals to me for fluff reasons. I'd love to see my Rogue actually use both their dagger and pistol in one attack, even just one, instead of committing to one or the other all the time.

[Andronidas]

How about backstab being exclusive to fast weapons? That would solve issues with it being counterintuitive as an idea, and make for a reason to use more rogue-like weapons as a rogue. A streetfighter/fighter would always have reason to use other weapons, so I think narrowing it down would be nice.

[Nail]

Good catch, but I have doubts Josh will do any changes

Still... Fingers crossed...

[Boeroer]

How about backstab being exclusive to fast weapons? That would solve issues with it being counterintuitive as an idea, and make for a reason to use more rogue-like weapons as a rogue. A streetfighter/fighter would always have reason to use other weapons, so I think narrowing it down would be nice.

Backstab is only one example. We have the same issues with Flames of Devotion, Finishing Blow, Wounding Shot and so on. Every ability that is limited in how often you can use it per encounter and that gives you a big damage bonus that is based on your weapon's damage. Also future abilities that may work like this will have that issue.

Edited November 27, 2017 by Boeroer

[MaxQuest]

First thing:

did you ever ask yourself why Backstab is best done with an arquebus or a great sword?

You bet I did)

 

Now imagine your superstealthy rogue sneaking up on people with his great sword *sneaky sneak sneak* "nobody sees me while I take a biiig swing".

Or even worse, how he holds his arquebus, point blank, to the head of an enemy... Erm, yeah.

It's even more weird having to draw your warbow at that distance.

On the other hand I can imagine doind this with a pistol.

 

Why on earth is a Full Attack not implented as a series of blows/shots that takes the speed of the weapon into account? This would make light weapons a competitor for Backstabs, FoD and so on.

Probably because of PoE1 interruptions. But I don't know which came first.

Also weapon procs, carnage, combusting wounds.

 

- Full Attack with dual light, fast one handers: you get 4 strikes (mainhand-offhand-mainhand-offhand)

- Full Attack with dual heavy one handers: you get 2 strikes (mainhand - offhand)

I'm not sure I'm liking this.

The baseline damage for fast melee weapons currently is 11-15 damage. x4, that's 44-60.

The baseline damage for average melee weapons currently is 14-19. x2, that's 28-38.

I.e. you are not really getting roughly the same amount of damage dealt.

 

Tbh, I'd just make Backstab deal:

x2 damage with firearms

x4 damage with daggers and stilletos

x3 damage with other weapons

... and leave Full and Primary Attacks as they are.

 

Or make Full and Primary attacks with a fast (0.5s attack time) weapon perform an additional instant swing.

 

Edit:

Or both of above mixed together, i.e.:

Backstab deals:

x3 damage with daggers and stilletos

x2 damage with other weapons

 

Plus Full and Primary attacks with a fast (0.5s attack time) weapon perform an additional instant swing.

Edited November 27, 2017 by MaxQuest

[Boeroer]

I'm not set on the numbes I gave (like 4 swings for light weapons and 2 for heavy and so on).

 

That's just examples so that you guys get what I mean.

 

Generally speaking a Full Attack should roughly have the same amount of base damage (added up). So either one hefty blow with a heavy weapon or a couple of swift strikes with light ones and so on.

 

Then all the problems around those abilities are solved.

 

Did you ever use Flames of Devotion with a rapier? Not really I guess. But Darcozzis seem to like rapiers. But few Darcozzi players would consider rapier + dagger a good combo for Flames of Devotion. They'd take an arquebus instead, which is weird...

Edited November 27, 2017 by Boeroer

[KDubya]

But since FoD is a full attack dual wielding a rapier and a dagger will do more damage than using the Arquebus, especially if you have the lingering flames. Dual wielding fast weapons in plate is somewhere around 1.3 seconds for attack and recovery with a 15 dexterity while that Arquebus is at 6.6 seconds.

 

The old armor system of damage reduction needed big hitters to overcome damage while small fast weapons did the minimum since they hit less than the DR. Now if you get past the armor you do full damage. Even plain stillettos with their modal will punch through 9 armor.

 

Light fast weapons dual wielded are going to be the killing machines in Deadfire instead of Sabres or Great Swords. Leaving slow weapons as being better with full and primary attacks gives them a niche.

[MaxQuest]

I'm not set on the numbes I gave (like 4 swings for light weapons and 2 for heavy and so on).

That's just examples so that you guys get what I mean.

The thing is that it should be not only balanced but also really easy to remember. A rule of thumb of sorts.

 

Generally speaking a Full Attack should roughly have the same amount of base damage (added up). So either one hefty blow with a heavy weapon or a couple of swift strikes with light ones and so on.

 

Then all the problems around those abilities are solved.

I'm still not completely sure that they should have the same amount of damage.

In PoE1 you could have a rogue and have to decide: do I want higher auto-attack dps (via fast weapons) or higher burst via special abilities + heavier weapons.

 

I mean I'd like:

- to have weapons' impact be somewhat balanced when speaking of Full Attacks.

- but at the same time to evade the situation when "it doesn't matter what I use".

 

Did you ever use Flames of Devotion with a rapier?

No

 

But Darcozzis seem to like rapiers. But few Darcozzi players would consider rapier + dagger a good combo for Flames of Devotion. They'd take an arquebus instead, which is weird...

Uhm, when you put it this way... I never thought of what do Darcozzis like.

Tbh I have never even taken FoD on Darcozzis.

 

My rationale was:

- if I want FoD, there are Bleakwalkers and Kind Wayfarers directly linked to it.

- and if I take Darcozzi it must be because of Liberating Exhortation, so that's my FoDless tank-support. I could still give them some rapier. But I would look for utility enchants not for dps though.

 

But overall I understand what you mean. And there is a specific FoD related example that speaks to me: FoD with a melee 2H weapon is quite subpar to DW with slower weapons; which resulted in Greater Sword paladin being a bit sub-optimal.

Edited November 27, 2017 by MaxQuest

[Boeroer]

Right

[dunehunter]

For min-max, if an ability is labeled as Full Attack, I will always use two heavy single weapon, like dual sabre.

 

If it is Primary Attack, I will only use Two handed or arquebus/arbalest. 

 

Maybe it's easier to balance it by 1) Change all ability to Full Attack; 2) Reduce the offhand damage of heavy single weapon when Full Attack; 3) Rebalance basic damage on every weapon.

 

I feel this is how a lot games do. Like in D&D 3.5 if you use heavy single weapon in offhand u got a penalty.

[Boeroer]

But since FoD is a full attack dual wielding a rapier and a dagger will do more damage than using the Arquebus, especially if you have the lingering flames. Dual wielding fast weapons in plate is somewhere around 1.3 seconds for attack and recovery with a 15 dexterity while that Arquebus is at 6.6 seconds.

So base FoD is "fixed" with the additinal ability - which is good. But if you don't take that then FoD itself is still broken.

 

I don't know the exact numbers of arquebus - but another example: Rapier + Dagger will not deal the same amount of damage with FoD as two swords - despite the fact that they do comparable damage per second (dps) with autoattacks. So you would switch to dual swords just for FoD (but no Quick Switch) or you don't use Rapier & Dagger as a paladin with FoD at all.

 

And waht about Wounding Shot/Finishing Blow/Backstab? There's no addon-ability that fixes that.

 

The old armor system of damage reduction needed big hitters to overcome damage while small fast weapons did the minimum since they hit less than the DR. Now if you get past the armor you do full damage. Even plain stillettos with their modal will punch through 9 armor.

It's not as bad anymore as it was in PoE, but still their base damage is a lot lower and so is the result of the FoD/Backstab/wahtever attack.

 

 

Light fast weapons dual wielded are going to be the killing machines in Deadfire instead of Sabres or Great Swords. Leaving slow weapons as being better with full and primary attacks gives them a niche.

Who says that? They have lower base damage and therefore have to be faster to do the same dps. If they don't they are just not balanced.

Edited November 27, 2017 by Boeroer

[MaxQuest]

 

Light fast weapons dual wielded are going to be the killing machines in Deadfire instead of Sabres or Great Swords. Leaving slow weapons as being better with full and primary attacks gives them a niche.

Who says that? They have lower base damage and therefore have to be faster to do the same dps. If they don't they are just not balanced.

 

Afaik no one yet did.

 

But, if PoE1 would move from additive AR to percentage-based AR, that would indeed be the case.

Compare:

- rapier: 9-13 base damage @ 19 frames attack + 31.8 frames recovery => 30 * 11/50.8 = 6.49 dps

- spear: 11-16 base damage @ 30 frames attack + 50 frames recovery => 30 * 13.5/80 = 5.06 dps

 

We can't make such an estimation for Deadfire yet, as 1H weapons were told to have wrong recovery. But if recovery's base value is proportional with attack duration (like it did in PoE1)... fast weapons would be better for auto-attacking by ~10%, because:

- rapier: 11-15 base damage @ 0.5s attack + c * 0.5s recovery => 13/(0.5 + 0.5c) = 26 / (1 + c)

- spear: 14-19 base damage @ 0.7s attack + c * 0.7s recovery => 16.5/(0.7 + 0.7c) = 23.5 / (1 + c)

(but then again there are sabres with +0.2 damage coefficient...)

Edited November 27, 2017 by MaxQuest

[Boeroer]

I remember in one of the videos (that came with a fig update) some barbarian was doing a Barbaric Blow with a single mace and hit three times in a row very quickly. Do you remember? At that point I thought "Neat! They are improving Full Attacks." - But either it was a bug or it didn't turn out well - no idea.

[KDubya]

My contention on the superiority of fast weapons in Deadfire is based on a few assumption:

 

1. That fast weapons currently have their proper speeds 0.5 attack and 1.0 recovery
2. That two handed weapons have their proper speeds of 0.7 attack and 3.0 recovery
3. That spears are the only heavy one handers that have the proper speed of 0.7 attack and 3.0 recovery (same as the two handed, same as in PoE)
4. That the other heavy one handers are mistakenly coded to have fast speed recovery at 0.7 attack and 1.0 recovery

This would then lead to an assumption that heavy one handers will be at 0.7 attack and 3.0 sec recovery.

 

Consider a dual wielder in plate with base dex:

• Two fast weapons like clubs have 0.5 attack and 1.5 recovery for 11-15 (13 average) a dps of 6.5
• Two heavy one handers spears have 0.7 attack and 3.0 recovery for 14-19 (16.5 average), a dps of 4.5

Based on these observations and predictions/assumptions I think that fast speed weapons dual wielded will out perform hard hitting but slower weapons as long as both can penetrate the armor. Since armor penetration is not affected by damage the slower, harder hitting weapons have no advantage.

[Climhazzard]

If you make a full attack have more hits it will make it'll make light weapons a lot better for applying CC.  Stunning blows for example.  Of course dual wielding is already better for applying CC with full attacks than using 2 handers.  But in this case fast weapons would be even better for doing so.

[theBalthazar]

So if you are in overpenetration with dual wielding = always best ?

[Boeroer]

If you make a full attack have more hits it will make it'll make light weapons a lot better for applying CC.  Stunning blows for example.  Of course dual wielding is already better for applying CC with full attacks than using 2 handers.  But in this case fast weapons would be even better for doing so.

That is correct. In case of abilites that deal CC effects I wouldn't use Full Attacks because of that reason anyway to be honest.

 

I'm not fixed on how many attacks a light weapon should get with a Full Attack. This could all be balanced. I just find it sad that abilites that give you a weapon based damage bonus are always best with those weapons that have the highest damage per hit. Which leads to some very unintuitive decisions like arquebus or great sword for Backstab and co.

 

If Full Attacks are there to balance out the dps advantage of light weapons then ok. But the weird decisions will remain. Nobody will paly an Assassin who does Backstabs with dual daggers because a) it's a Primary Attack and b) daggers have low base damage. The highest Backstabs I had so far were with a great sword. THis is not very smart design.

 

In my opinion it would be better to rebalance weapons so that they all deal comparable (not the same, but not extremely off) dps with 10 DEX and 10 MIG and use Full Attacks in a way that I described above. Just my opinion though. This will not happen but I still believe it would be better.

[Boeroer]

So if you are in overpenetration with dual wielding = always best ?

You mean with Full Attacks? No, not necessarily. It depends on the base damage of the weapons. If base damage of weapon 1 + base damage of weapon 2 (dual wielding) > base damage of weapon 3 (single handed or two hander) - then yes.

Edited November 28, 2017 by Boeroer

[MaxQuest]

I remember in one of the videos (that came with a fig update) some barbarian was doing a Barbaric Blow with a single mace and hit three times in a row very quickly. Do you remember? At that point I thought "Neat! They are improving Full Attacks." - But either it was a bug or it didn't turn out well - no idea.

Yeap I remember it.

A barbarian with 2H was swinging his weapon twice during Full Attack from Barbaric Blow. But iirc there appeared only 1 overhead damage number, so I thought it's just a custom animation.

Edited November 28, 2017 by MaxQuest

[Nail]

 

I remember in one of the videos (that came with a fig update) some barbarian was doing a Barbaric Blow with a single mace and hit three times in a row very quickly. Do you remember? At that point I thought "Neat! They are improving Full Attacks." - But either it was a bug or it didn't turn out well - no idea.

Yeap I remember it.

A barbarian with 2H was swinging his weapon twice during Full Attack from Barbaric Blow. But iirc there appeared only 1 overhead damage number, so I thought it's just a custom animation.

 

I thought it was fighter Cleaving Stance or something like that...

Edited November 28, 2017 by Nail

[Boeroer]

In the video I saw it was a barbarian who used a Barbaric Blow and did multiple strike animations with that.

[dunehunter]

On a secondary thought, I think one of the advantage of dual wielding fast weapon is, you can have faster responding to the event in the battle field thanks to the faster recovery time.

 

So Imagining you spot an enemy wizard try to cast a devastating spell, a two-handed character may still in his long recovery loop so he cannot interrupt the wizard. But a fast weapon dual wielder can, and interrupt twice because of dual wielding.

[Climhazzard]

On a secondary thought, I think one of the advantage of dual wielding fast weapon is, you can have faster responding to the event in the battle field thanks to the faster recovery time.

 

So Imagining you spot an enemy wizard try to cast a devastating spell, a two-handed character may still in his long recovery loop so he cannot interrupt the wizard. But a fast weapon dual wielder can, and interrupt twice because of dual wielding.

 

 

Yeah for this reason I often like to use fast weapons on any character with the ability to react to various situations.  Priests for example have a .5 second cast speed heal, but if you're stuck in a 5 second recovery because you were using a 2 hander with armor equipped, the dude you wanted to heal is probably dead by the time you cast the heal.  But if you were using a pair of wands instead the heal will go off almost instantly.

 

Any kind of disrupters will probably be better off with 2 average speed weapons than they would be with a single two hander as well.  For a lot of builds it might not matter at all though, just something extra to keep in mind when you're picking weapons for your characters.

Edited November 29, 2017 by Climhazzard