Your Tiers List [Base Classes, Subclasses]

[Enoch]

Don't Devoted also suffer more than most classes from our current lack of metaknowledge of what the cool weapons are of each type, and where in Deadfire to get them?  Seems like they'll be much better on a second playthrough, when you'll know in advance what unique weapons you want and can beeline for them.  (Similarly, Nalpazca and drug availability.) 

 

I think Obsidian is going to try their best not to play favorites with weapon types, but there are limits to how far those efforts can go.  And with Deadfire's more non-linear structure, the risk that you'll miss an item that you "should" have by a certain point is higher. 

[dunehunter]

Don't Devoted also suffer more than most classes from our current lack of metaknowledge of what the cool weapons are of each type, and where in Deadfire to get them? Seems like they'll be much better on a second playthrough, when you'll know in advance what unique weapons you want and can beeline for them. (Similarly, Nalpazca and drug availability.)

 

I think Obsidian is going to try their best not to play favorites with weapon types, but there are limits to how far those efforts can go. And with Deadfire's more non-linear structure, the risk that you'll miss an item that you "should" have by a certain point is higher.

Agreed, I’m more worried about soul bound weapons because u know... they have class limit. Never a fan of class limited things imo they should remove it all.

 

Like what if your devoted pick axe as devoted weapon and the soul bound axe can only be used by barb? Ouch too bad if it happens.

[theBalthazar]

I don't think unbroken is so broken. Ok this is +10 penetration... when disengaging. So not crazy at all. Devoted first, for ever !

 

 

For weapon I hope the final shock point is at max 60-70 % of the game. Because take a soulbound at 95 % of the game is useless... (Same for companions)

 

EDIT : And while we're talking about that : same story for components and/or weapons drop by final boss / final encounter of DLC like two dragons or Kraken.

 

Oh yeah ! A legendary weapon... That I can't use... because... The game is over...

Edited April 6, 2018 by theBalthazar

[MadDemiurg]

Unbroken gets +1 armor when using shield (which is good if you want to use shield). But the point is, the difference between fighter subclasses is not big enough to be more than 0.5 tier apart (or maybe 1 tier apart in case of black jacket).

[theBalthazar]

In fact, everything depend of your vision of tiers. 

 

For me, except black jacket where there is troll punishement (he is ~ 1 tiers less than others like you said) tiers are not deep chasm. Like I said to Beoroer this is 1) subjective, for sharing with others peoples, and for fun and 2) Differences are extremely restrained !

 

Last argument for Devoted, if you have high accuracy + mass Hit to crit, your 25 % is not only "10 %" in average. This is not my findings. Crits extremely often. And again, +2 penetration for THIS beta (not the full game) is pretty strong actually, even with a sabre (only one source of damage).

Edited April 6, 2018 by theBalthazar

[MadDemiurg]

Crit is not multiplicative. If you crit 50% of the time it's additive +12.5% damage.

 

In this beta, it's also highly beneficial to switch damage types from my solo experience. E.g. Skulking horror is massively vulnerable to pierce (having pierce in much better than +2 pen with any other type).

Edited April 6, 2018 by MadDemiurg

[theBalthazar]

I crits 80 % of time. Devoted need the best source of accuracy ...

 

Only one class give that.

 

^^

Edited April 6, 2018 by theBalthazar

[MadDemiurg]

On PoTD? kinda doubt it. I've been running solo crusader with 19 per, I don't crit 80% of time even with FoD which is +20 acc base. 50% hit to crit included.

 

If you're talking ranger, yeah you might crit more with accurate wounding shot + stalkers link + mark but in the end you'll still be doing less dmg than crusader with FoD so the point is kinda moot. Oh, and you won't get stalkers link with multiclass and current level cap. So it's only 10 acc above FoD on wounding shot (trading for +20% dmg from sworn enemy and 50% multiplicative lash dmg from FoD)

Edited April 6, 2018 by MadDemiurg

[Boeroer]

Unbroken seems to be a bit broken because the +10 PEN seem to glue all engaged enemies to the Unbroken. Nobody dares to leave his engagement. Or so it seems. Still searching for new ways to make them break engagement.

 

Another question regarding Fighter/Monk: since Transcendent Suffering scales with Power Level, wouldn't this be a chance to use the other upgrade of Disciplined Barrage? I mean the one with +5 PER, +5 INT and +1 Power Level? Always forget the name... It should stack with Wellspring if Life since that's a passive. So +3 PL for Transcendent Suffering basically. I know +50% dual conversion is maybe better - just for the sake of (viable) variety?

Edited April 6, 2018 by Boeroer

[dunehunter]

Unbroken seems to be a bit broken because the +10 PEN seem to glue all engaged enemies to the Unbroken. Nobody dares to leave his engagement. Or so it seems. Still searching for new ways to make them break engagement.

 

Another question regarding Fighter/Monk: since Transcendent Suffering scales with Power Level, wouldn't this be a chance to use the other upgrade of Disciplined Barrage? I mean the one with +5 PER, +5 INT and +1 Power Level? Always forget the name... It should stack with Wellspring if Life since that's a passive. So +3 PL for Transcendent Suffering basically. I know +50% dual conversion is maybe better - just for the sake of (viable) variety?

Trust me 50% conversion is better most of the time... One advantage I can think about is that version can clear both Perception and INT affliction, but well u cannot use it when u r charmed ( wonder what happens when charmed characters cast it tho ).

[MadDemiurg]

I mean 1 PL for.... 50% hit to crit? Is there even a choice?

[theBalthazar]

Need to use devotion of the faithful via a pure priest.

Sometimes I use rapier, but I also like use sabre, sword (in full game if there is a lot of immunities) or axe (axe is underestimate actually).

 

But I confess, I try bunch of thing level 9 very often in POTD, so we can't really know.

 

Anyway, most important thing : Devoted is in front of, rest is detail : p 70 or 80 % of crit is pretty decent.

 

 

I mean 1 PL for.... 50% hit to crit? Is there even a choice?

 

 

Exactly.

Edited April 6, 2018 by theBalthazar

[Boeroer]

I said "for the sake of (viable) variety".

 

Not for the sake of optimization.

[MadDemiurg]

Rapier modal is pretty terrible tbh, it's only good for strikes you absolutely want to hit with (e.g. some CC), not for DPS. In general, modals that increase your recovery are terrible, the only one where you might break even on damage or even win is rod's aoe and it's still bit ???. But yeah, If you stack devotion from priest + rapier modal I can see 80% crit. It's not optimal for dps tho.

 

Axes are pretty decent.

Edited April 6, 2018 by MadDemiurg

[theBalthazar]

Perhaps a Power Level +2 is needed. Everybody say disciplined strike si pretty strong, but for 2 abilities point, PL+2 would be not crazy...

 

 

Rapier modal is pretty terrible tbh

 

 

Work well for me. base of 3s or recovery + DW so you feel less the malus. Not "terrible" to me : p When you want high accuracy... Personnaly I prefer Sabre or Axe in this sandbox. In the full game... Wait and see.

 

Axes are pretty decent.

 

 

 In general, modals that increase your recovery are terrible

 

 

Also Recovery time : p But we know the game, you disable the thing after first hit ^^

Edited April 6, 2018 by theBalthazar

[Boeroer]

Single Rapier + Style + modal with Swift Flurry used to be ok. Used to...

 

Tested it with Soul Annihilation and that works quite well (helps a lot to land SA reliably) - but the switching is so tedious without AI support.

Edited April 6, 2018 by Boeroer

[dunehunter]

Don’t they have that big data thing to see how much percentage of players picked which talent?

 

If everybody picked discipline strike then they can see it and rebalance it probably.

[kmbogd]

Crit is not multiplicative. If you crit 50% of the time it's additive +12.5% damage.

 

Take into account that crit not only adds 25% extra damage but also 50% more penetration, so criting 50% of the time is not only 12.5% additive dmg. Depending on the situation it can be much more, the most extreme case I can think of is transforming a severe under-penetration -75% to a +25% bonus.

[flazeo25]

How well does beckoner/soulblade or ascendant  multiclass synergies.

Edited April 6, 2018 by flazeo25

[Boeroer]

Not so well. Summons don't generate focus, cipher's buffs are for single allies mostly. Only thing that's good is that ciphers donÄt have spells with friendly fire.

 

Maybe Reaping Knives can be cast on summons.

[KDubya]

I rolled two monks (Shattered Pillar) to compare. Both Nature Godlike for the power level boost for using fists.

 

First was a Devoted/ Shattered Pillar, second was pure Shattered Pillar. I actually found the pure Shattered Pillar to be better.

 

• At level nine the Shattered Pillar has 13 abilities of which only the first one is poor with taking the reduced wound threshold, the Devoted/Shattered Pillar has to take two picks at this power level and all are pretty bad picks., and then only has 12 abilities at level nine. So the pure monk has effectively 12 good abilities compared to 10 for the Devoted/Shattered Pillar. This gets you the upgraded Force of Anguish for an on-demand prone and interrupt that costs just one wound, way better than the suck of knockdown.
• The pure Monk gets much earlier access to powerful abilities like Thunderous Blows and the upgraded Torment's Reach. A spammable AoE stun is much better than a spammable staggered.
• The extra power levels from pure class gets you +15% damage, +1 penetration and +4 accuracy when using fists. This is active at all times.
• The pure monk can freely pick a ranged weapon or alternate damage types or shield modals. If the bug of Devoted getting fists for free goes away then you'll be limited to only fists.

 

The Devoted class adds

• +1 penetration with fists (the inherent power level difference gets back one), +25% crit damage and limits your weapon choices
• Disciplined Strikes - the +5 perception is only one accuracy better than what a pure monk gets due to power level
• Confident Aim - this plus Disciplined strikes has two 50% chances to convert graze to hit so 25% graze chance goes to 12.5% and then to 6.25% chance so 18.75% total so unit damage goes from 0.625 to 0.71875 or an extra 15% damage for two ability points which is the same as the 15% gained freely from power level for the pure monk
• Cleave
• Armored Grace (at higher levels than nine)
• Charge - I think its bugged as it'd never do anything when I tried it. Plus at a cost of two Discipline its not cheap, maybe you get one use and then need to save the rest to keep Disciplined Strikes up.

 

All in all the pure monk is about equal in damage output and a lot better as a Monk than the Devoted multiclass. Better to make a weapon user for a Devoted which is not where Monks are powerful.

[dunehunter]

Constant recovery? Also Torment Reach + Cleave > upgraded Torment Reach on cleaning trash mobs, upgraded torment reach is better at single target mob imo. Can't say which is better, both feels pretty decent to me.

 

Pure monk = +15% damage on fist;

 

Devoted/Monk = +1 Penetration, +1 accuracy, 50% hit to crit, 2x50 graze to hit, +25% crit damage;

 

Imo devoted one is better. And also pure monk is the only melee class that can compete with its multiclass combo builds imo, or other melee classes is better multclassed.

Edited April 7, 2018 by dunehunter

[KDubya]

Woops forgot about the regen

 

I think Devoted do a lot better with a weapon using class than with a fist monk. Devoted + Soul Blade, Street Fighter, Berserker, Corpse Eater, Skald,  Paladin (any), Wizard, and Priest are all great because they can specialize in a weapon and pick good abilities instead of being stuck with the Fighter's lackluster tree.

 

Even then going super shield tank with Unbroken compares favorably with the Devoted. The extra penetration can be made up with weapon switching and the extra crit damage is nice but amounts to like 10% damage (50% are hits, 50% conversion makes 25 crits which do an extra 25% damage so .0625 extra unit damage)

 

A pure monks early access to the better abilities and more actual abilities makes them a better choice in my opinion rather than a Devoted multiclass. I need to run a Shattered Pillar mixed with a Soul Blade, Paladin, Berserker, Corpse Eater, and Skald to see how they fare.

[MadDemiurg]

 

Crit is not multiplicative. If you crit 50% of the time it's additive +12.5% damage.

 

Take into account that crit not only adds 25% extra damage but also 50% more penetration, so criting 50% of the time is not only 12.5% additive dmg. Depending on the situation it can be much more, the most extreme case I can think of is transforming a severe under-penetration -75% to a +25% bonus.

 

But Devoted does not increase crit chance, only crit damage. You can have the same crit chance with any other fighter. We were discussing the power of devoted +25% crit damage bonus, not the power of crits.

Edited April 7, 2018 by MadDemiurg

[theBalthazar]

Yes but your strategy will be perhaps to conduct a high accuracy + Hit to crit.

 

So can be important for your "choice" when multiclasses for example. Optimized the fact of do +25 % as often as possible.

 

Devoted specifically have high interrest to maximize crit.

 

The strategy to build an unbroken for max damage is perhaps elsewhere.

 

(Work with push attack ? Never try...)

Edited April 7, 2018 by theBalthazar