Your Tiers List [Base Classes, Subclasses]

[Boeroer]

I tried a Howler (Mage Slayer/Troubadour) today and Spell Disruption only applied to the initial target.

 

Carnage triggers "The Shield Cracks" though.

Edited April 24, 2018 by Boeroer

[z_liquid]

I tried a Howler (Mage Slayer/Troubadour) today and Spell Disruption only applied to the initial target.

 

Carnage triggers "The Shield Cracks" though.

How's the Troubadour in general? The Troubadour modal seems somewhat... out of place. You gain phrases faster but everything costs +1 phrase. Does the modal even offset that?

[SaruNi]

 

I tried a Howler (Mage Slayer/Troubadour) today and Spell Disruption only applied to the initial target.

 

Carnage triggers "The Shield Cracks" though.

How's the Troubadour in general? The Troubadour modal seems somewhat... out of place. You gain phrases faster but everything costs +1 phrase. Does the modal even offset that?

 

 

Yes. Brisk Recitation generates phrases twice as fast. All invocations cost more than 1 phrase. (If they cost 1 phrase, then Brisk Recitation and ordinary Chanter would generate invocations at the same rate. 1+1 = 2.)

 

As I posted before:

 

Troubadour Brisk Recitation vs. normal Chanter

3 phrase invocation: 12 seconds vs 18 seconds

4 phrase invocation: 15 seconds vs 24 seconds

5 phrase: 18 seconds vs 30 seconds

 

Of course that's not taking into account the initial phrase count which iirc tops out at 4 in the beta. So regular Chanter has the advantage of being able to cast 4 phrase invocations immediately. If they both use 4 phrase invocations ASAP, we get the above scenario but with +3 seconds added to each troubadour time (still significantly faster than chanter for all after the first). Alternatively, if they both use 3 phrase invocations as soon as possible:

 

0 seconds: Chanter 1 invocation 1 phrase, Troubadour 1 invocation 0 phrases

3s: T 1 / 1

6s: C 1 / 2, T 1 / 2

9s: T 1/3

12 s: C 2 / 0, T 2 / 0 (Chanter casts second invocation, Troubadour casts second invocation)

15s: T 2 / 1

18s: C 2 / 1, T 2 / 2  

21s: T 2 / 3

24s: C 2 / 2, T 3 / 0 (Troubadour casts third invocation)

27s: T 3 / 1

30s: C 2 / 3, T 3 / 2 (Chanter casts third invocation)

33s: C 3 / 0, T 3 / 3 

36s: C 3 / 0, T 4 / 0 (Troubadour casts fourth invocation) 

Edited April 24, 2018 by SaruNi

[Boeroer]

For me the interesting part of the Troubadour is not Brisk Recitation but the longer linger time when I'm not using Brisk Recitation. And the versatility that I can switch from linger/chant mode to Brisk Recitation/Invocation mode.

 

As an invocation spammer I like Skald best: offensive invocations like Killers cost -1 phrase (=2) and with a good build and said Killers-invocation you can achieve crits pretty easily in order to get prases more quickly.

[Madscientist]

Now I am not so sure anymore if I want a kind wayfarer/beckoner or kind wayfarer/troubadour as army general.

More summons is nice, but less HP and shorter duration.

As troubadour having damage shield or healing twice as often is also nice.

 

I guess I stay with beckoner and the fire lash chant. Summons stats increase with player level and duration with power level?

As long as some summons survive until I can cast again, strengh in numbers and increased damage are nice.

 

My main char was a kind wayfarer in PoE1, so this class is fixed.

Does dual wielding with FoD heal my party members twice?

[SaruNi]

For me the interesting part of the Troubadour is not Brisk Recitation but the longer linger time when I'm not using Brisk Recitation. And the versatility that I can switch from linger/chant mode to Brisk Recitation/Invocation mode.

 

As an invocation spammer I like Skald best: offensive invocations like Killers cost -1 phrase (=2) and with a good build and said Killers-invocation you can achieve crits pretty easily in order to get prases more quickly.

 

And Skald is the only one that benefits from speed bonuses. Optimized dual-wielding melee crit skald with maximal speed boosts should usually be the clean winner in casting invocations. Though that's mitigated by invocations with long casting time, especially the higher level summons. And requires melee... so ranged or caster multiclass, or any multiclass other than speed crit build, might be better off with troubadour. 

 

Advantage of vanilla chanter is the ability to cast higher level non-offensive invocations at beginning of combat---the buffs have very fast casting time unlike pretty much all other caster AoE buffs.

Edited April 24, 2018 by SaruNi

[Ganrich]

Ive been working way too much to play, but they are finally getting new hires in and I'll have time to actually play the game on launch.

 

Anyway, I loaded the game yesterday and I built a Nature Godlike Helwalker/Skald with One weapon style. Around 14 dex, 16 perception, around 15 might, left con and res around 10, and dumped whatever was left in Int.

 

Open with killers froze, and go to town. Kept my wounds fro hitting 0 to maintain the Helwaker Might bonus so it kept the Nature GL's racial (+2 powerl level when you have a might (con and resolve?) inspiration on the PC. This basically made all my invocations come out at +2 PLs, and any damage invocations benefitted from the extra might. It's a really good combo of classes. Used Dull the blades and come Come Chants.

 

Now I'm trying a Troubadour/Ghost Heart with dual pistols who is an explosives expert. Evasive fire, Ila, marked prey, Killers Froze, This build is less worried about party buffing if enemies break the front line so he has a lower Intellect. Open with Marked Prey, Summon pet, cast Killers, wounding shot, and swap between auto fire, explosives, and invocations. Save some Bond for evasion, and at later levels evasive fire if you get some heat in battle. It's a really fun build.

 

I really love the versatility of Troubadour. You COULD make a melee Troubadour, or a pure caster Troubadour, or as I did a ranged specialist Troubadour.

 

Simultaneously, your troubadour could focus on invocations by having Brisk Recitation on, focus on buff stacking via chants with it off, or a little of both depending on combat needs.

 

It's a toss up for me whether I like the Skald or Troubadour more. They are both fantastic. However, the fact that troubadour can be MCed with almost anything means I will likely use it more. Skald has a few great combos, and some I think would be pretty bad (none of the rangers except Stalker would be too good for instance). Anything but a Gish wizard wouldn't be great, Priest is also a luke warm option. You could make them work, but... I think Troubadour could work with nearly any other subclass well.

 

Side note: Killers Froze might be too good. It's such a solid opener. Easily the best of the bunch in its level bracket.

 

Anyway, I'm really psyched for the Chanter in Deadfire.

[dunehunter]

For me the interesting part of the Troubadour is not Brisk Recitation but the longer linger time when I'm not using Brisk Recitation. And the versatility that I can switch from linger/chant mode to Brisk Recitation/Invocation mode.

 

As an invocation spammer I like Skald best: offensive invocations like Killers cost -1 phrase (=2) and with a good build and said Killers-invocation you can achieve crits pretty easily in order to get prases more quickly.

 

With 30 INT your lingering time can be around 10 sec. So I'd say it might be possible to stack 3 different phrase at once(since during my test, same phrase doesn't stack itself, like Dragon Thrashed)

[Boeroer]

What do you mean? Yesterday Dragon Thrashed stacked with a Helwalker/Troubadour with 30 MIG and 30 INT.

 

By the way: Helwalker's +50% received damage isn't so bad if you stack several Courage shields.

[dunehunter]

Yeah I tested it too, Spell disruption doesn't work on Carnage, I also checked Spirit Frenzy on different abilities, it works on spells, DoTs, melee attacks, almost everything so carnage is nothing special here. Might not be intended. 

[Boeroer]

Sounds a bit like a bug - but since it would be supermeh otherwise (same as Blood Frenzy) I like it.

[dunehunter]

What do you mean? Yesterday Dragon Thrashed stacked with a Helwalker/Troubadour with 30 MIG and 30 INT.

 

By the way: Helwalker's +50% received damage isn't so bad if you stack several Courage shields.

 

You sure about this? When i tested it, only duration is prelonged. But I think i didn't see enemy get multiple DoT, maybe I'm wrong.

[Boeroer]

I get two parallel DT instances on enemies - for real. They show up below each other in the enemies' tooltips.

 

But you are also right: one of those gets prolonged rather than a third one is added.

 

However - that they don't show up on the enemies' tooltip doesn't mean that the damage doesn't stack. Deep Wounds also only shows once, Bleeding Cut the same - but they stack nonetheless.

 

I haven't really logged the damage of DT so far. I only tested several setups with it against Lagufaeth, Dummies and Tigers just in order to get an impression and how it "feels". So I maybe wrong here.

[SaruNi]

Incidentally, is Helwalker (or Helwalker/Assassin) + can't die LoH/spell + Pain Link or similar a worthwhile combo? Pain Link iirc had been bugged... Of course Turn the Blade can do more damage against melee, but if Pain Link doesn't require a successful attack roll against the enemy it could be useful against very high deflection, high DPS enemies... and does Pain Link work on spells and ranged attacks?

Edited April 25, 2018 by SaruNi

[dunehunter]

Incidentally, is Helwalker (or Helwalker/Assassin) + can't die LoH/spell + Pain Link or similar a worthwhile combo? Pain Link iirc had been bugged... Of course Turn the Blade can do more damage against melee, but if Pain Link doesn't require a successful attack roll against the enemy it could be useful against very high deflection, high DPS enemies... and does Pain Link work on spells and ranged attacks?

 

Maybe it will work if you can trigger an infinite damage loop Like the soul mate/heal undead combo in DOS2

[Boeroer]

As far as I know Pain Link works with all damage that you suffer from attack rolls (no DoT ticks, no self damage).

 

I have seen an item in the latest sneak peak that also prevents you from dying. That in combo with Barring Death's Door and/or special LoH could be cool with Death Godlike, Helwalker, Assassin, Streetfighter and Barbarian and any combo of those.

Edited April 28, 2018 by Boeroer

[dunehunter]

As far as I know Pain Link works with all damage your suffer from attack rolls (no DoT ticks, no self damage).

 

I have seen an item in the latest sneak peak that also prevents you from dying. That in combo with Barring Death's Door and/or special LoH could be cool with Death Godlike, Helwalker, Assassin, Streetfighter and Barbarian and any combo of those.

 

Yep, the items seem to be still favour low deflection/resolve type of characters. Prevent death, prot on being crit effect and etc.

[Madscientist]

What do you mean? Yesterday Dragon Thrashed stacked with a Helwalker/Troubadour with 30 MIG and 30 INT.

 

By the way: Helwalker's +50% received damage isn't so bad if you stack several Courage shields.

 

The shield stacks? I thought it just gets refreshed so you cannt absorb more than 30damage from one chant to the next.

The shield chant sounds very useful in any case.

 

Regarding things that prevent death:

I really dislike chars that need to be at low health for max power, even if they are very powerful.

This means no death godlike berserker/streetfighter for me and also no assassin/helwalker who reflects the huge damage he takes.

 

The opposite would be interesting for me: a char who stays passively at full health.

Maybe something like a chanter/fighter: heavy armor, constant recovery, winds of death or ancient memory dual wielding draining weapons.

[Boeroer]

Yes, one 30-pt-shield gets destroyed once dmg reaches 30+, but the next "stacked" one will immediately take over for the next hit you receive.

 

Staying passively at full health: besides Lifegivers maybe Kind Wayfarer/Troubadour with Exhalted Endurance (Robust inspiration gives you and party members a regeneration) + Ancient Memory + White Flames + LoH (not really passive that last one)?

Edited April 28, 2018 by Boeroer

[Lamppost in Winter]

If you play, say, a Rogue, Ranger or Barbarian "traditionally" (i.e., sneaky stabby Rogue, ranged + pet Ranger and Frenzy DPS Barb), is there much reason not to choose Assassin, Sharpshooter or Berserker over the base class, RP aside?

[Boeroer]

Yes, you advance through power levels faster and therefore get the higher level abilities earlier. But you also get access to abilities of Power Level 8+9 - multiclasses don't.

Edited April 28, 2018 by Boeroer

[Lamppost in Winter]

Yes, you advance through power levels faster and therefore get the higher level abilities earlier. But you also get access to abilities of Power Level 8+9 - multiclasses don't.

 

I think you misread my post; I was asking if there was much point in choosing a Rogue, Ranger or Barb without a subclass over a Assassin, Sharpshooter or Berserker if you played those classes more or less "traditionally". To me those three subclasses strike me as "the base class, but better", and the drawbacks don't do much to make the base class more attractive.

[Boeroer]

Oops. Sorry for that.

 

Yeah I don't know either why somebody would want to play a base class barbarian or ranger. Chanter also. But there may be cases.

 

For example rogue as a flanker: Assassin is a bit frail, Streetfighter doesn't work well as flanker and Trickster has lower dmg potential. So if you want a classic flanker a vanilla rogue makes sense I guess.

Edited April 28, 2018 by Boeroer

[Madscientist]

I want to like the berserker, but it looks like only priests can cast an int inspiration on somebody else and I do not like the idea that I have to cast a spell every fight just to remove the downside of my main char.

I play always with a full party and it is very likely that my other chars will stand close to him sometimes.

 

Same thing for Nalpazca. I can understand why people say it is the most powerful monk, but I do not want to find and use tons of items ( drugs) all the time.

 

My playstyle: Not PotD, full party, no cheating ( console codes ), no mods ( except bugfixes maybe ), completeonist and it will be hard to find somebody who plays slower than me.

I am also guilty of hoarding items, up to the point that I felt almost guilty for using a health potion during a boss fight in a different game. Often I have to fail a fight before I consider using a potion or scroll because "maybe I need it later" or " I am sure I can do it without" and then I complain that some fights are very hard. Idiot me

Edited April 28, 2018 by Madscientist

[dunehunter]

Very interesting thing is that when you have driving flight the 2nd shot has -50% bounce penalty. But when u are a fury/ranger and have driving flight, the penalty becomes that 1st bounce -20% damage, 2nd bounce -36% damage. Also only the 1st bounce will attack the origin target, the 2nd won't.

Edited April 28, 2018 by dunehunter