Politics Thread: 13 Ghosts

[Volourn]

Can people define what they mean by 'poverty' here? Is it 3rd world living in filth drinking dirty water and barely having rags to wear or is it 1st world living in a 2 bedroom house with only one tv and one car type of poverty?

 

LMAO

 

When you say the guy works for 40 hours a week yet is 'poor' what do you mean 'poor'?

 

I work for less than 40 hours in a job that pay a little more than minimum wage yet I have an apartment, computer, fancy tv, a billion movies, games, never in danger of starving, have a ridiculous amount of clothes and would be considered 'under the poverty line'.   People's definition of poor really seems 'skewered' at times.

 

LMAO So.. what do you mean 'poor'?

 

 

To have a legit  conversation about 'poorness' we need to set  the definition and boundaries of what we actually mean by 'poor'.

Edited November 22, 2017 by Volourn

[Malcador]

What do you suppose he meant by economic fairness then? Based on everything we've been discussing these last three pages that is my interpretation of his message. If I'm incorrect 213374U then please let me know.

Could always ask to clear that up before going off on a sermon. An idea. One thing though, is it a problem for you that some people don't pay tax just due to being too poor for it ?

Edited November 22, 2017 by Malcador

[majestic]

If you guys want to see an example to follow, ask Gromnir to tell you his life story. No one on this board has bridged a bigger gap between misery and success than he has. And I'll give you a hint... he didn't get it because it was handed to him.

 

I do have question - what would you consider a handout, or having "success" handed to someone (let's assume by the government)?

[Blarghagh]

To have a legit conversation about 'poorness' we need to set the definition and boundaries of what we actually mean by 'poor'.

I'm sure we would if every time someone tried they didn't get crapped on "for trying to decide for everyone else what they need".

[213374U]

I could go on all day.

 

I don't doubt that you could, but aluminiumtrioxid already said what I was going to, so instead I'm just going to make a quick reminder that, romantic imagery aside, it is physically impossible to pull oneself up by the bootstraps.

 

Maybe that's the "joke"?

 

 

 

What do you suppose he meant by economic fairness then? Based on everything we've been discussing these last three pages that is my interpretation of his message. If I'm incorrect 213374U then please let me know.

Equal opportunity doesn't mean anything, if regardless of effort, odds are that you are going to lag behind. "Life ain't fair" is not really a very good argument for exacerbating man-made unfairness. The market and wealth distribution are not naturally occurring phenomena over which humanity has no control.

 

Economic fairness means everyone gets to compete in a level playing field, without being hindered by, among other things, the fact that labor pricing is largely outside of the control of workers. It's not really a commercial transaction, which is what selling labor is (ought to be), if you have no control over the price of what you are selling, and are forced to accept whatever you are offered because the alternatives are homelessness, starvation, the works. In practice that's actually closer to extortion.

 

You said you worked for free. I did, too. The only difference is that I could not really afford it, so I was literally forced to tell them to go **** themselves, even though I made the connection through a family member and that reflected badly on them. Now, that's not very "fair", is it?

 

You cannot have a luck-based meritocracy, it's an oxymoron.

 

edit: er, just to be clear, I'm not saying that Timmy is to be given half a cookie for no work done just as Jimmy who did 40 hours. More like, make sure both Timmy and Jimmy get a cookie if they both worked 40 hours, instead of having Jimmy receive a bunch of ****ing crumbs because he has mouths to feed and no bargaining power.

 

 

And btw, the world may need ditch diggers now... but not for long.

Edited November 22, 2017 by 213374U

[Zoraptor]

Hariri is back in Lebanon and has withdrawn his resignation. No great surprise there. Should be noted though that despite most reports saying his family left Saudi as well his two younger children are still 'guests' there, it's only his wife who went with him, and his elder son was always at uni in the UK.

[Hurlshort]

If you guys want to see an example to follow, ask Gromnir to tell you his life story. No one on this board has bridged a bigger gap between misery and success than he has. And I'll give you a hint... he didn't get it because it was handed to him.

 

That's right, he got it because he is built like a linebacker.

[Guard Dog]

OK, we're spinning our wheels here. Let's come at this another way.

 

Meet Micheal & Jeanette

 

 

The are a newly married couple living in Philadelphia let's say. Micheal makes $29k a year working as unskilled labor for a construction company. Jeanette makes $12k working part time at a grocery store. Neither has an education beyond high school. They are renting a small, not so nice apartment. They have one car with a payment and a few credit cards. Their basic expenses eat up 90% of their income. They dream of an upper middle class lifestyle with a house,two cars, two kids, a retirement plan, a nice vacation every year. Realistically they will need a family income around $70k give or take to achieve their goals. The are asking all of us how to do it. What is your advice?

[Pidesco]

Work really hard, spend money only on essentials, pay off all debt, pray you don't get any unexpected expenses(especially medical), be lucky.

 

Edit: Oh, and do not have kids.

[redneckdevil]

OK, we're spinning our wheels here. Let's come at this another way.

 

Meet Micheal & Jeanette

 

 

The are a newly married couple living in Philadelphia let's say. Micheal makes $29k a year working as unskilled labor for a construction company. Jeanette makes $12k working part time at a grocery store. Neither has an education beyond high school. They are renting a small, not so nice apartment. They have one car with a payment and a few credit cards. Their basic expenses eat up 90% of their income. They dream of an upper middle class lifestyle with a house,two cars, two kids, a retirement plan, a nice vacation every year. Realistically they will need a family income around $70k give or take to achieve their goals. The are asking all of us how to do it. What is your advice?

Work more hours, cut out what comforts (phone bill, reduce power, cook instead of eating out, etc) and buy off brand and thrift shop and used. Also realize that 70 grand is an estimate and see if u can go lower.

My 2 cents.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Now then. You are of course correct KP. It's much easier to make money if you start with money. And more often than not what starts in rags ends there. No one chooses to be poor. But you CAN choose to try to do something about it. If you are looking for a guarantee, there is none. This is life. It isn't fair.There are no guarantees save one: if you don't try to improve your situation, it will not improve. Every last one of us has the opportunity in the country and other like it to do that. The ones that do and succeed do not own an apology to the ones that don't try.

And the issues arise from the low success rate of the gamble, the high costs of failure, and the tendency of wealth to concentrate among the few successful. Consider the opposite to your examples, someone who worked their ass off for years to start a business that failed, not through laziness but just bad luck and ends up buried in debt because of it. Extrapolate this and we end up with very few winners and quite a lot of losers. Now we can go on about how life isn't fair and that's certainly true, but the social contract is built upon an agreement that society is for everyone's best interests. If the masses were to no longer feel that way, and instead reach the conclusion that society was not in their best interests, do you honestly think they would support the wealth of a fraction of the population out of fairness for their hard work over busting out the guillotine? Life isn't fair afterall, and the few who prosper aren't owed loyalty by those who don't. All hypothetically of course.

 

I'm glad you brought up Gromnir, he certainly beat all odds to become a successful lawyer. I know three remarkable individuals myself. One is a guy my age whose diet consists almost entirely of fast food yet he is a skinny bastard. The other claims to have never worn a condom and had no stds or need to pay for an abortion despite having some success with the fairer sex. The third was a distant relative who smoked more than a pack a day since 16 and he died getting hit by a drunk driver when close to 70 with no lung issues in his life. Now if entering a debate on diet/nutrition, preventing unwanted pregnancy or stds, or the effects of smoking on one's lungs do you think these remarkable cases disprove the evidence that if you eat mostly fast food you'll most likely get fat, if you **** without condoms you'll most likely get a nasty surprise of one sort or another, or that if you smoke a back a day you'll most likely get cancer?

[Malcador]

Work really hard, spend money only on essentials, pay off all debt, pray you don't get any unexpected expenses(especially medical), be lucky.

 

Edit: Oh, and do not have kids.

Wonder if they can also ditch the car.

[Blarghagh]

Work really hard, spend money only on essentials, pay off all debt, pray you don't get any unexpected expenses(especially medical), be lucky.

 

Edit: Oh, and do not have kids.

Seems like bad advice when tailored to achieving a goal that includes having kids.

[Pidesco]

 

Work really hard, spend money only on essentials, pay off all debt, pray you don't get any unexpected expenses(especially medical), be lucky.

 

Edit: Oh, and do not have kids.

Wonder if they can also ditch the car.

 

 

I'm assuming commuting without the car in the US is a risky proposition.

[Ben No.3]

I have a friend who is definitely one of the if not the most brilliant person I’ve ever met. She’s the daughter of two immigrants, who both work long hours every day for years on years. Mother works at a hospital, father helps out at a theater. Not that they are dumb or lazy.... they both studied and got a diploma. They still can barley afford anything. Their extended family either can’t support them, or they refuse to, as they are deeply religious and the parents chose to study in the Soviet Union of all places. As of now, they are unsustainably in debt. They had to take up a loan to enable their first daughter to go to uni, and now they had to take up a second loan to pay off that first loan. The second loan, they still can’t afford to pay off, so the debt just grows and grows. Heck, they can’t even get every school book she needs. They can’t afford citizenship, for God’s sake.

Again, this is perhaps the most brilliant person I have met. She reads fluent Latin and Ancient Greek, I mean just imagine the effort that must have gone into that. I’ve had the same amount of years of Latin, and I barley understand the damned language. To anyone who speaks with her, it is clear that she is, in terms of intellectual capacity, capable of great things.

But she’s also one of three daughters who have to be supported through school and uni. Being fully aware of the disadvantages she, as a poor, underclass, female immigrant drowned in debt, is at, she has a rather pessimistic outlook on her future.

And before I forget: She also has a particularly weak constitution; which results in her having two surgeries within less than 12 months, as well as often needing simply meds. Those aren’t exactly free either.

 

Now how the **** am I gonna explain to her how the free market is gonna save her?

Edited November 22, 2017 by Ben No.3

[Pidesco]

 

Work really hard, spend money only on essentials, pay off all debt, pray you don't get any unexpected expenses(especially medical), be lucky.

 

Edit: Oh, and do not have kids.

Seems like bad advice when tailored to achieving a goal that includes having kids.

 

 

If they don't keep that goal to last they simply won't make it outside of being very lucky.

[Malcador]

So I guess the point being driven at is that those that are struggling are just lazy or stupid, heh.

[majestic]

OK, we're spinning our wheels here. Let's come at this another way.

 

Meet Micheal & Jeanette

 

 

The are a newly married couple living in Philadelphia let's say. Micheal makes $29k a year working as unskilled labor for a construction company. Jeanette makes $12k working part time at a grocery store. Neither has an education beyond high school. They are renting a small, not so nice apartment. They have one car with a payment and a few credit cards. Their basic expenses eat up 90% of their income. They dream of an upper middle class lifestyle with a house,two cars, two kids, a retirement plan, a nice vacation every year. Realistically they will need a family income around $70k give or take to achieve their goals. The are asking all of us how to do it. What is your advice?

 

Would you like an answer based on the currently available options or would you like to know how that situation could be resolved in our socialist pinko commie paradise states in Yurop?

 

Edit:

 

To elaborate, it would be doable here assuming the both of them aren't unskilled labor because they're mentally challenged. In which case there's a number of engineering or business night schools available for free to proceed from unskilled to skilled labour and the option of negotiating for educational leave with your employer. Which would be a government handout: You retain your job on a certain amount of unpaid leave while the government picks up your expenses, within reasonable limits. In return you need to bring proof of successful course work and can then proceed to better paying job opportunities (with your old employer, assuming they exist).

 

Granted both require a period a couple of years of intensive studying and working at the same time, but that's doable. 's not easy, but doable. There's also the option of picking up an apprenticeship which would come with three or four years of reduced pay and the humiliation of doing work with 14 to 18 year olds for a while but the end result would be skilled labour in your chosen field just as well.

Edited November 22, 2017 by majestic

[majestic]

Now how the **** am I gonna explain to her how the free market is gonna save her?

 

Privatinsolvenz is not an option? It sucks for a while and is humiliating but certainly better than having no perspective, no?

[Ben No.3]

 

Now how the **** am I gonna explain to her how the free market is gonna save her?

Privatinsolvenz is not an option? It sucks for a while and is humiliating but certainly better than having no perspective, no?

edit: yeah, I’m terrible at reading law. AnywY, privat Insolvenz only applies to those out of a job Edited November 22, 2017 by Ben No.3

[redneckdevil]

 

 

Work really hard, spend money only on essentials, pay off all debt, pray you don't get any unexpected expenses(especially medical), be lucky.

 

Edit: Oh, and do not have kids.

Wonder if they can also ditch the car.

I'm assuming commuting without the car in the US is a risky proposition.

Nah, don't ditch the car, that's something of importance but doesn't have to be brand new.

Buttttttt depending on how far ya live from your work and don't have kids, I've done it for years. Great excersize, save money on gas and insurance, and good for alot of people to take a walk.

[Gfted1]

To elaborate, it would be doable here assuming the both of them aren't unskilled labor because they're mentally challenged. In which case there's a number of engineering or business night schools available for free to proceed from unskilled to skilled labour and the option of negotiating for educational leave with your employer. Which would be a government handout: You retain your job on a certain amount of unpaid leave while the government picks up your expenses, within reasonable limits. In return you need to bring proof of successful course work and can then proceed to better paying job opportunities (with your old employer, assuming they exist).

 

Granted both require a period a couple of years of intensive studying and working at the same time, but that's doable. 's not easy, but doable. There's also the option of picking up an apprenticeship which would come with three or four years of reduced pay and the humiliation of doing work with 14 to 18 year olds for a while but the end result would be skilled labour in your chosen field just as well.

That's pretty cool! Why wouldn't everyone, that needs it, do it?

 

And unrelated to above, has the conversation now shifted to; "most people aren't living as well at the top earners are"? We've now established that its totally "doable" to live on single or dual incomes and have most of life's "luxuries". BUT! Dude over there has a nicer house and that's not fair! Well, not all people are equal. That's the plain unvarnished truth. Not all people have the same mental acuity or intelligence. Not all people have the same physical capabilities. So is the discussion really that all people should have the same success? Of course there are going to be haves and have not's. I cant even really understand how that's not a basic understanding of life.

[HoonDing]

"The are a newly married couple living in Philadelphia let's say. Micheal makes $29k a year working as unskilled labor for a construction company. Jeanette makes $12k working part time at a grocery store. Neither has an education beyond high school. They are renting a small, not so nice apartment. They have one car with a payment and a few credit cards. Their basic expenses eat up 90% of their income. They dream of an upper middle class lifestyle with a house,two cars, two kids, a retirement plan, a nice vacation every year. Realistically they will need a family income around $70k give or take to achieve their goals. The are asking all of us how to do it. What is your advice?"

 

We, the citizens of America, are now joined in a great national effort to rebuild our country and to restore its promise for all of our people.

 

Together, we will determine the course of America and the world for years to come.

 

We will face challenges. We will confront hardships. But we will get the job done.

 

Every four years, we gather on these steps to carry out the orderly and peaceful transfer of power, and we are grateful to President Obama and First Lady Michelle Obama for their gracious aid throughout this transition. They have been magnificent.

 

Today’s ceremony, however, has very special meaning. Because today we are not merely transferring power from one Administration to another, or from one party to another – but we are transferring power from Washington, D.C. and giving it back to you, the American People.

 

For too long, a small group in our nation’s Capital has reaped the rewards of government while the people have borne the cost.

 

Washington flourished – but the people did not share in its wealth.

 

Politicians prospered – but the jobs left, and the factories closed.

 

The establishment protected itself, but not the citizens of our country.

 

Their victories have not been your victories; their triumphs have not been your triumphs; and while they celebrated in our nation’s Capital, there was little to celebrate for struggling families all across our land.

 

That all changes – starting right here, and right now, because this moment is your moment: it belongs to you.

 

It belongs to everyone gathered here today and everyone watching all across America. 

 

This is your day. This is your celebration.

 

And this, the United States of America, is your country.

 

What truly matters is not which party controls our government, but whether our government is controlled by the people.

 

January 20th 2017, will be remembered as the day the people became the rulers of this nation again. 

 

The forgotten men and women of our country will be forgotten no longer.

 

Everyone is listening to you now.

 

You came by the tens of millions to become part of a historic movement the likes of which the world has never seen before.

 

At the center of this movement is a crucial conviction: that a nation exists to serve its citizens.

 

Americans want great schools for their children, safe neighborhoods for their families, and good jobs for themselves.

 

These are the just and reasonable demands of a righteous public.

 

But for too many of our citizens, a different reality exists: Mothers and children trapped in poverty in our inner cities; rusted-out factories scattered like tombstones across the landscape of our nation; an education system, flush with cash, but which leaves our young and beautiful students deprived of knowledge; and the crime and gangs and drugs that have stolen too many lives and robbed our country of so much unrealized potential.

 

This American carnage stops right here and stops right now.

 

We are one nation – and their pain is our pain.  Their dreams are our dreams; and their success will be our success.  We share one heart, one home, and one glorious destiny.

 

The oath of office I take today is an oath of allegiance to all Americans.

 

For many decades, we’ve enriched foreign industry at the expense of American industry;

Subsidized the armies of other countries while allowing for the very sad depletion of our military;

We've defended other nation’s borders while refusing to defend our own;

And spent trillions of dollars overseas while America's infrastructure has fallen into disrepair and decay.

 

We’ve made other countries rich while the wealth, strength, and confidence of our country has disappeared over the horizon.

 

One by one, the factories shuttered and left our shores, with not even a thought about the millions upon millions of American workers left behind.

 

The wealth of our middle class has been ripped from their homes and then redistributed across the entire world.

 

But that is the past. And now we are looking only to the future.

 

We assembled here today are issuing a new decree to be heard in every city, in every foreign capital, and in every hall of power.

 

From this day forward, a new vision will govern our land.

 

From this moment on, it’s going to be America First.

 

Every decision on trade, on taxes, on immigration, on foreign affairs, will be made to benefit American workers and American families.

 

We must protect our borders from the ravages of other countries making our products, stealing our companies, and destroying our jobs.  Protection will lead to great prosperity and strength.

 

I will fight for you with every breath in my body – and I will never, ever let you down.

 

America will start winning again, winning like never before.

 

We will bring back our jobs. We will bring back our borders.  We will bring back our wealth.  And we will bring back our dreams.

 

We will build new roads, and highways, and bridges, and airports, and tunnels, and railways all across our wonderful nation.

 

We will get our people off of welfare and back to work – rebuilding our country with American hands and American labor.

 

We will follow two simple rules: Buy American and Hire American.

 

We will seek friendship and goodwill with the nations of the world – but we do so with the understanding that it is the right of all nations to put their own interests first.

 

We do not seek to impose our way of life on anyone, but rather to let it shine as an example for everyone to follow.

 

We will reinforce old alliances and form new ones – and unite the civilized world against Radical Islamic Terrorism, which we will eradicate completely from the face of the Earth.

 

At the bedrock of our politics will be a total allegiance to the United States of America, and through our loyalty to our country, we will rediscover our loyalty to each other.

 

When you open your heart to patriotism, there is no room for prejudice.

 

The Bible tells us, “how good and pleasant it is when God’s people live together in unity.”

 

We must speak our minds openly, debate our disagreements honestly, but always pursue solidarity.

 

When America is united, America is totally unstoppable.

 

There should be no fear – we are protected, and we will always be protected.

 

We will be protected by the great men and women of our military and law enforcement and, most importantly, we are protected by God.

 

Finally, we must think big and dream even bigger.

 

In America, we understand that a nation is only living as long as it is striving.

 

We will no longer accept politicians who are all talk and no action – constantly complaining but never doing anything about it.

 

The time for empty talk is over.

 

Now arrives the hour of action.

 

Do not let anyone tell you it cannot be done.  No challenge can match the heart and fight and spirit of America.

 

We will not fail. Our country will thrive and prosper again.

 

We stand at the birth of a new millennium, ready to unlock the mysteries of space, to free the Earth from the miseries of disease, and to harness the energies, industries and technologies of tomorrow.

 

A new national pride will stir our souls, lift our sights, and heal our divisions.

 

It is time to remember that old wisdom our soldiers will never forget: that whether we are black or brown or white, we all bleed the same red blood of patriots, we all enjoy the same glorious freedoms, and we all salute the same great American Flag.

 

And whether a child is born in the urban sprawl of Detroit or the windswept plains of Nebraska, they look up at the same night sky, they fill their heart with the same dreams, and they are infused with the breath of life by the same almighty Creator.

 

So to all Americans, in every city near and far, small and large, from mountain to mountain, and from ocean to ocean, hear these words:

 

You will never be ignored again.

 

Your voice, your hopes, and your dreams, will define our American destiny. And your courage and goodness and love will forever guide us along the way.

Together, We Will Make America Strong Again.

 

We Will Make America Wealthy Again.

 

We Will Make America Proud Again.

 

We Will Make America Safe Again.

 

And, Yes, Together, We Will Make America Great Again. Thank you, God Bless You, And God Bless America.

[Ben No.3]

 

To elaborate, it would be doable here assuming the both of them aren't unskilled labor because they're mentally challenged. In which case there's a number of engineering or business night schools available for free to proceed from unskilled to skilled labour and the option of negotiating for educational leave with your employer. Which would be a government handout: You retain your job on a certain amount of unpaid leave while the government picks up your expenses, within reasonable limits. In return you need to bring proof of successful course work and can then proceed to better paying job opportunities (with your old employer, assuming they exist).

 

Granted both require a period a couple of years of intensive studying and working at the same time, but that's doable. 's not easy, but doable. There's also the option of picking up an apprenticeship which would come with three or four years of reduced pay and the humiliation of doing work with 14 to 18 year olds for a while but the end result would be skilled labour in your chosen field just as well.

That's pretty cool! Why wouldn't everyone, that needs it, do it?

 

And unrelated to above, has the conversation now shifted to; "most people aren't living as well at the top earners are"? We've now established that its totally "doable" to live on single or dual incomes and have most of life's "luxuries". BUT! Dude over there has a nicer house and that's not fair! Well, not all people are equal. That's the plain unvarnished truth. Not all people have the same mental acuity or intelligence. Not all people have the same physical capabilities. So is the discussion really that all people should have the same success? Of course there are going to be haves and have not's. I cant even really understand how that's not a basic understanding of life.

normative fallacy! what is: people have different set of skills which are useful to society in varying degrees. Your ought: therefore, those who contribute should be richer.

Yet you do not give any reason why this should be the consequence of the circumstances you described.

[Gfted1]

normative fallacy! what is: people have different set of skills which are useful to society in varying degrees. Your ought: therefore, those who contribute should be richer.

Yet you do not give any reason why this should be the consequence of the circumstances you described.

I honestly have no answer for that post that you would understand.