Multiclassing Update

[draego]

 

 

 

Troubadour doesn't make sense to me. Linger is longer, but it's shorter if you use Brisk Recitiation (presumably subclass exclusive) for faster phrases.

 

But the faster phrases lose their purpose because invocations are more expensive.

 

So... everything about it is a wash? Linger is longer, but if you use the class ability it's also shorter and you get more phrases, but invocations cost more.

 

The way I interpret it, higher invocation cost is the price they pay for longer linger, which is their signature class ability.

 

Optionally, they can use Brisk Recitation to sacrifice the extended linger duration in favor of faster phrase build-up when they want to use invocations.

 

Makes sense to me.

 

 

So it's a subclass that you can switch off? How does that make sense?

 

 

Ye i dont see it that way. The brisk recitation for this class is a modal. So by default the modal is off and while its off the linger is longer. So that is the base existence of the class, longer lingers. If you turn on the modal then your lingers are shorter (and they didnt specify what shorter means. it could be that you go from +50% to +25 and that would be shorter but still longer than other classes they need to specify that.). Im not sure why that is bad, you get longer lingers. if you want to play a more passive chanter this is the class for you. Seem fine to me

Edited September 20, 2017 by draego

[PugPug]

 

 

 

 

Troubadour doesn't make sense to me. Linger is longer, but it's shorter if you use Brisk Recitiation (presumably subclass exclusive) for faster phrases.

 

But the faster phrases lose their purpose because invocations are more expensive.

 

So... everything about it is a wash? Linger is longer, but if you use the class ability it's also shorter and you get more phrases, but invocations cost more.

 

The way I interpret it, higher invocation cost is the price they pay for longer linger, which is their signature class ability.

 

Optionally, they can use Brisk Recitation to sacrifice the extended linger duration in favor of faster phrase build-up when they want to use invocations.

 

Makes sense to me.

 

 

So it's a subclass that you can switch off? How does that make sense?

 

 

Ye i dont see it that way. The brisk recitation for this class is a modal. So by default the modal is off and while its off the linger is longer. So that is the base existence of the class, longer lingers. If you turn on the modal then your lingers go shorter.

 

 

 

Brisk Recitation off: Longer lingers, takes longer to prepare invocations

Brisk Recitation on: Normal lingers, normal time to prepare invocations

 

The normal is probably approximate; we have no way of knowing yet. But fundamentally you are taking the sub's specialization and undoing it.

[MortyTheGobbo]

 

 

 

I'm thinking about a Devoted/Streetfighter myself, depending on how valuable it'll be to use multiple weapons. In Pillars, I only ever swapped away from a greatsword to open a combat with an arbalest.

Devoted are the ones that are devoted to one weapon (Which I presume is, One weapon, and not a Weapon Category). I think?

 

Did we get an answer on that on Tumblr?

 

Anyways, restricted to Single-Handed.

 

 

One weapon, yes. I think weapon categories are no longer a thing. Not being proficient in a weapon only means that you can't use its modal. Devoted takes it a step further with accuracy penalties.

 

What I mean is.... Short Swords is a "Category", is the Devoted devoted to all Short Swords? Or just one specific Short Sword in your inventory? Will it be impossible to sell it? If not, it should be, so no accidents occur. Like Boo, you couldn't pick him up from the inventory, *squeak!*

 

 

I'm fairly sure you're "bound" to all weapons in a particular category, like all greatswords or pikes. It wouldn't make a lot of sense otherwise.

[PugPug]

 

 

 

I'm thinking about a Devoted/Streetfighter myself, depending on how valuable it'll be to use multiple weapons. In Pillars, I only ever swapped away from a greatsword to open a combat with an arbalest.

Devoted are the ones that are devoted to one weapon (Which I presume is, One weapon, and not a Weapon Category). I think?

 

Did we get an answer on that on Tumblr?

 

Anyways, restricted to Single-Handed.

 

 

One weapon, yes. I think weapon categories are no longer a thing. Not being proficient in a weapon only means that you can't use its modal. Devoted takes it a step further with accuracy penalties.

 

What I mean is.... Short Swords is a "Category", is the Devoted devoted to all Short Swords? Or just one specific Short Sword in your inventory? Will it be impossible to sell it? If not, it should be, so no accidents occur. Like Boo, you couldn't pick him up from the inventory, *squeak!*

 

 

 

Definitely any short sword.

[draego]

 

 

 

 

 

Troubadour doesn't make sense to me. Linger is longer, but it's shorter if you use Brisk Recitiation (presumably subclass exclusive) for faster phrases.

 

But the faster phrases lose their purpose because invocations are more expensive.

 

So... everything about it is a wash? Linger is longer, but if you use the class ability it's also shorter and you get more phrases, but invocations cost more.

 

The way I interpret it, higher invocation cost is the price they pay for longer linger, which is their signature class ability.

 

Optionally, they can use Brisk Recitation to sacrifice the extended linger duration in favor of faster phrase build-up when they want to use invocations.

 

Makes sense to me.

 

 

So it's a subclass that you can switch off? How does that make sense?

 

 

Ye i dont see it that way. The brisk recitation for this class is a modal. So by default the modal is off and while its off the linger is longer. So that is the base existence of the class, longer lingers. If you turn on the modal then your lingers go shorter.

 

 

 

Brisk Recitation off: Longer lingers, takes longer to prepare invocations

Brisk Recitation on: Normal lingers, normal time to prepare invocations

 

The normal is probably approximate; we have no way of knowing yet. But fundamentally you are taking the sub's specialization and undoing it.

 

 

"Brisk Recitation off: Longer lingers, takes longer to prepare invocations". That isnt a bad thing its the point of the subclass. In POE the best chanters dont even use invocations much. This is a build for a passive chanter which is pretty much what lots of people did in POE1. If you dont like passive chanter that is fine but it doesnt mean its bad (I dont like passive chanters fyi). and yes shorter could be +50% to +25% linger (they didnt specify that part) still better than other classes but not as good without the modal.

 

And not sure if you meant this i could be misunderstanding. but lingers have nothing to do with when you can cast invocations but just the fact you dont have access to brisk recitation would make it take longer in a since. basically you would be back to casting invocations at a normal rate without brisk recitation

Edited September 20, 2017 by draego

[blotter]

A Stalker/Streetfighter might be another interesting combination. I also think that a Shifter/Transmuter works pretty well conceptually but may be one of those cases where each side of the combo works against the other given that the Shifter loses access to spellcasting to benefit from its abilities. A Fury/Evoker seems similarly fitting for an obsessively dedicated elementalist type of character, though as with the Beguiler/Trickster combo, the first subclass' benefits probably don't apply to the spells gained by the second.

 

I do find myself wondering about the subclasses that gain access to other class spells/abilities, though. Even if all abilities are per encounter to varying degrees (except for Wounds, Focus, and Phrases), these varying degrees of per encounter use seem pretty important in terms of balancing the power of such abilities per individual use. For example, a Rogue has much more flexibility in how often they can use their abilities since they're all tied to the same general resource pool (see https://jesawyer.tumblr.com/post/162919329066/wizards-priests-and-druids-still-have-some for details), and thus rogue abilities may be less powerful than a spell of an equivalent level, which can't be used as often during an encounter barring the use of Empower charges.

 

If this is true, then a Priest of Skaen, for example, might end up with the worst of both worlds since the Rogue abilities it can choose in place of spells would not only be weaker than the base spells it could choose from/the alternatives available to the other Priest subclasses but they'd also be subject to stricter limits in terms of per encounter usage. The reverse may apply in the case of a Trickster, assuming that Illusion spells don't underperform relative to other Wizard spell types.

Edited September 20, 2017 by blotter

[PugPug]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Troubadour doesn't make sense to me. Linger is longer, but it's shorter if you use Brisk Recitiation (presumably subclass exclusive) for faster phrases.

 

But the faster phrases lose their purpose because invocations are more expensive.

 

So... everything about it is a wash? Linger is longer, but if you use the class ability it's also shorter and you get more phrases, but invocations cost more.

 

The way I interpret it, higher invocation cost is the price they pay for longer linger, which is their signature class ability.

 

Optionally, they can use Brisk Recitation to sacrifice the extended linger duration in favor of faster phrase build-up when they want to use invocations.

 

Makes sense to me.

 

 

So it's a subclass that you can switch off? How does that make sense?

 

 

Ye i dont see it that way. The brisk recitation for this class is a modal. So by default the modal is off and while its off the linger is longer. So that is the base existence of the class, longer lingers. If you turn on the modal then your lingers go shorter.

 

 

 

Brisk Recitation off: Longer lingers, takes longer to prepare invocations

Brisk Recitation on: Normal lingers, normal time to prepare invocations

 

The normal is probably approximate; we have no way of knowing yet. But fundamentally you are taking the sub's specialization and undoing it.

 

 

"Brisk Recitation off: Longer lingers, takes longer to prepare invocations". That isnt a bad thing its the point of the subclass. In POE the best chanters dont even use invocations much. This is a build for a passive chanter which is pretty much what lots of people did in POE1. If you dont like passive chanter that is fine but it doesnt mean its bad (I dont like passive chanters fyi). and yes shorter could be +50% to +25% linger (they didnt specify that part) still better than other classes but not as good without the modal.

 

And not sure if you meant this i could be misunderstanding. but lingers have nothing to do with when you can cast invocations but just the fact you dont have access to brisk recitation would make it take longer in a since. basically you would be back to casting invocations at a normal rate without brisk recitation

 

 

I don't think you're seeing my point at all, no.

 

The specialization is great, it's just weird that it gets a modal to reverse it.

 

I know linger has nothing to do with invocations. Phrase recitation speed does. The modal increases that speed.

 

Think of it as invocations costing money. Say for this subclass, they cost $12 instead of the usual $10. You get paid $1 an hour, so it takes you 12 hours to "earn" an invocation instead of 10. The modal increases your wage, so you get paid $1.20 an hour. Now it only takes you 10 hours, just like a vanilla Chanter. The wage bonus and the price penalty cancel each other out. See the problem?

 

Yes, the numbers are arbitrary. The point is the same.

 

The bit about linger bonus + linger penalty is easier to see, so I won't explain that.

[draego]

I don't think you're seeing my point at all, no. 

 

The specialization is great, it's just weird that it gets a modal to reverse it.

 

I know linger has nothing to do with invocations. Phrase recitation speed does. The modal increases that speed.

 

Think of it as invocations costing money. Say for this subclass, they cost $12 instead of the usual $10. You get paid $1 an hour, so it takes you 12 hours to "earn" an invocation instead of 10. The modal increases your wage, so you get paid $1.20 an hour. Now it only takes you 10 hours, just like a vanilla Chanter. The wage bonus and the price penalty cancel each other out. See the problem?

 

Yes, the numbers are arbitrary. The point is the same.

 

The bit about linger bonus + linger penalty is easier to see, so I won't explain that.

 

Ye i get where you are coming from. I just dont see loosing faster casting invocations as a problem if your goal for this build is to not cast invocations very often but keep up say dragon thrashed phrases without the interruption of invocations (this is the standard build you see in the posts of POE1 chanters. I actually hate it but there it is). Ye i figured i misunderstood your comment about lingers "Brisk Recitation off: Longer lingers, takes longer to prepare invocations"

Edited September 20, 2017 by draego

[smjjames]

The character concept of monk/rogue rogue/monk (does it matter which one I start with?) looks like it'd be pretty good. The shadowblade feature makes it more ninja-like than the urban brawler type the concept is supposed to be, but still works.

 

I don't have a specific ratio in mind and I haven't decided which skills/abilities I'd include, so, I'd probably just wing it. Streetfighter subclass for rogue fits themeatically, not sure what monk subclass I'd use, if I do use one, maybe shattered pillar.

[Doppelschwert]

I think the point PugPug is trying to raise is this:

 

If you could just use a modal to make the troubadour act like a base chanter, why would you ever pick the base chanter?

Therefore, something seems off about the description, since this is surely not the intent.

 

 

Mageslayer / Devoted might be my opportunity to finally bring the Kensai back...

Edited September 20, 2017 by Doppelschwert

[Lamppost in Winter]

Does the Evoker and Transmuter subclass abilities seem strong compared to, say, the Enchanter ability? I guess it would depend on how debilitating Hobbled is in Deadfire, or what sort of passives the Conjurer familiars provide.

[blotter]

Does the Evoker and Transmuter subclass abilities seem strong compared to, say, the Enchanter ability? I guess it would depend on how debilitating Hobbled is in Deadfire, or what sort of passives the Conjurer familiars provide.

 

Yeah, it's possible that Hobbled is more debilitating in Deadfire. Also, the language used ("a Hobble type Affliction") makes me wonder if there might be more than one affliction that falls within this category: for example, stunned and paralyzed might be hobble-type afflictions of greater severity.

 

The comparative strength of the ability would also depend on just how small the Evoker's chance of "echoing" evocation spells is, and the Transmuter can't cast spells at all while using Form of the Fearsome Brute, which may help balance it compared to the others.

[ShadySands]

I think the point PugPug is trying to raise is this:

 

If you could just use a modal to make the troubadour act like a base chanter, why would you ever pick the base chanter?

Therefore, something seems off about the description, since this is surely not the intent.

All invocations are still more expensive?

 

And it doesn't say how much the modal speeds it up and how much shorter linger is

Edited September 20, 2017 by ShadySands

[draego]

https://jesawyer.tumblr.com/post/165559173611/hi-could-you-elaborate-a-little-on-the-troubadour. Just saw someone ask Josh

[HoopleDoople]

There's so many fun multi-class possibilities to try. I'm particularly eager to play a Shifter/Mage Slayer (Druid/Barbarian aka Tempest). Carnage, plenty of Spiritshifting, spell resistance, and heals every time you shift back? I'm sold.

Edited September 20, 2017 by HoopleDoople

[ghostwriter]

Wizards seem to have far fewer spells than the first game. Can somebody please ask Sawyer on tumblr or twitter exactly how many spells per level they get to learn during level up? I'm not on any of those sites...

[algroth]

Wizards seem to have far fewer spells than the first game. Can somebody please ask Sawyer on tumblr or twitter exactly how many spells per level they get to learn during level up? I'm not on any of those sites...

 

Again, I'm maybe misremembering or imagining things, but if I'm not mistaken there'll be a few wizard spells that cannot be learned by levelling up. Maybe they're not included in that bunch?

[injurai]

 

Wizards seem to have far fewer spells than the first game. Can somebody please ask Sawyer on tumblr or twitter exactly how many spells per level they get to learn during level up? I'm not on any of those sites...

 

Again, I'm maybe misremembering or imagining things, but if I'm not mistaken there'll be a few wizard spells that cannot be learned by levelling up. Maybe they're not included in that bunch?

 

 

It included ability levels 8 and 9 so everything was there.

[algroth]

 

 

Wizards seem to have far fewer spells than the first game. Can somebody please ask Sawyer on tumblr or twitter exactly how many spells per level they get to learn during level up? I'm not on any of those sites...

 

Again, I'm maybe misremembering or imagining things, but if I'm not mistaken there'll be a few wizard spells that cannot be learned by levelling up. Maybe they're not included in that bunch?

 

 

It included ability levels 8 and 9 so everything was there.

 

Hmm... Now that I'm looking at the video again, I'm seeing that the spell table shown is that of the druid, not the wizard. And these seem like the same spells that are in the first game?

 

As far as wizard spells are concerned we only see a couple of them from the UI itself, and it's like those few spells are the ones that were selected upon levelling up only, not all of them.

[injurai]

They show both Wizard and Druid tables.

[algroth]

They show both Wizard and Druid tables.

I looked again but I can't seem to find it. Got a timestamp perhaps?

[injurai]

 

They show both Wizard and Druid tables.

I looked again but I can't seem to find it. Got a timestamp perhaps?

 

 

Woops, my bad. It's rogue. I guess we'd be talking about grimoire specific spells right?

[algroth]

 

 

They show both Wizard and Druid tables.

I looked again but I can't seem to find it. Got a timestamp perhaps?

 

 

Woops, my bad. It's rogue. I guess we'd be talking about grimoire specific spells right?

 

Yeah. At least, my understanding is that there'll be some of those. Question is how many, and if they'll all be attainable through grimoires or through other means too.

Edited September 21, 2017 by algroth

[PugPug]

A priest of wael gets wizard illusion spells, but what if the multiclass wizard subs conjurer or enchanter, which don’t get illusion spells?

[injurai]

I'll be honest, having subclasses that naturally dip into other classes is a little uninteresting to me. Especially when multiclassing is meant to be a thing.