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The History of Antifa vs. Nazi: The Light and Dark sides of the Force


ktchong

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Antifa vs. Nazi has a long history that goes way back.  The two have always co-existed as the opposing forces:

 

 

Antifaschistische Aktion (German: [ˌantifaˈʃɪstɪʃə akˈtsi̯oːn]), abbreviated as Antifa (German: [ˈantifaː]), is a militant anti-fascist network in Germany.

 

The first German movement to call itself Antifaschistische Aktion was proclaimed by the German Communist Party (KPD) in their newspaper Rote Fahne in 1932 and held its first rally in Berlin on 10 July 1932, then capital of the Weimar Republic...

 

The late 1920s and early 1930s saw rising tensions between Nazis and leftists. Berlin in particular was the site of regular and often very violent clashes between the two groups. There were several Nazi and anti-Nazi paramilitary groups.

 

Antifaschistische Aktion was formed as a broad-based alliance in which Social Democrats, Communists and others could fight legal repression and engage in self-defence against Nazi paramilitaries.

 

After the forced dissolution in the wake of the Machtergreifung [Adolf Hitler's rise to power] in 1933, Antifa was banned and went underground.

 

The reemergence of Antifa in 1980s:

 

Many new Antifa groups formed from the late 1980s onwards. One of the biggest antifascist campaigns in Germany in recent years was the, ultimately successful, effort to block the annual Nazi-rallies in the east German city of Dresden in Saxony, which had grown into "Europe's biggest gathering of Nazis".

 

Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifaschistische_Aktion

 

Given the history that the communist Soviet Union was our ally in World War II, and fought on our side together in the Allied Forces against Nazi Germany, I would say Nazi and its successor neo-Nazi, - whose ideology is White nationalism and White supremacy, was and still is the bigger threat than Antifa.

 

So, Antifa and Nazi have always been archenemies. Antifa and Nazi exist like the two opposing sides of the Force, Light and Dark. When the Dark Side (i.e., Nazi) rises again, the Light Side (Antifa) also reemerges to fight. And Antifa has always used violence to fight against Nazi, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with Antifa's use of violence in fighting Nazi.

 

So, Antifa has reemerged only because the other side, the Dark Side, the true evil, has returned and become stronger.

Edited by ktchong
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It took me until now to realize that "Antifa" is actually "AFA", wich is the term I'm more used to. Knew alot of AFA people growing up since my hometown had a high concentration of neonazis.

Civilization, in fact, grows more and more maudlin and hysterical; especially under democracy it tends to degenerate into a mere combat of crazes; the whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, most of them imaginary. - H.L. Mencken

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It's almost like the left are the only ones willing to fight the nazis before they take power. Who would have thunk?

It took me until now to realize that "Antifa" is actually "AFA", wich is the term I'm more used to. Knew alot of AFA people growing up since my hometown had a high concentration of neonazis.

Yeah it tends to pop up where there's a lot of nazis.

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"Atifa violence was directly responsible for Hitlers and other fascist parties in Europe rose to power as people wanted order in their countries and that was the platform they run on in Germany and Italy for example.
The legend of antifa fighting "against nazies" was forged after WWII to make them look good in retrospective.
Antifa didn't fought fascist because they seen them as evil, they fought them because they were political rivals for rhe same leftist voters. Fascist for national socialism and Antifa for international socialism.
Fascist won battle in Germany and millions of people died from their ideology, antifa won in Russia and millions died from their ideology.
Using the ligh/dark side is false as it implies antifa thugs are "good". In fact they are equivalent of D&D Blood Wars between Lawful Evil Devils (Nazies) and Chaotic Evil Demons (Antifa).
Both are evil and noone should side with either one."

 

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The ending of the words is ALMSIVI.

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"Atifa violence was directly responsible for Hitlers and other fascist parties in Europe rose to power as people wanted order in their countries and that was the platform they run on in Germany and Italy for example.

 

 

Except, your timeline does not add up.

 

The Nazi Party was founded on 24 February 1920.

 

Antifa was founded on 10 July 1932, shortly before  Nazi won the national election and became the biggest party in the German parliment for the first time

 

When Antifa was founded, Hilter and Nazi had already made their fascist intentions publicly known.   Here were the 10-point platform and 25-point manifesto of the Nazi party - the 10 points are erringly similar to Trump's agendas.  Yet those ideas and Hitler's rhetorics had become widely popular among Germans.   So Antifa began as a direction reaction - and resistance - to the rise of Nazi popularism in Germany.

 

i.e., Nazi and fascism came first.  Antifa came afterward.  Nazi had been around for over a decade before Antifa started; unfortunately, when Antifa was founded, it was already too late, and Nazi had already started taking over Germany.

Edited by ktchong
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"Atifa violence was directly responsible for Hitlers and other fascist parties in Europe rose to power as people wanted order in their countries and that was the platform they run on in Germany and Italy for example.

 

 

Except, your timeline does not make sense.

 

The Nazi Party was founded on 24 February 1920.

 

Antifa was founded on 10 July 1932, shortly before  Nazi won the national election and became the biggest party in the German parliment for the first time.  At the time, Hilter and Nazi had already made their fascist intentions and missions publicly known, yet they were widely popular in Germany.  (Here were the 10-point platform and [25-point manifesto](https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSDAP_25_points_manifesto) of the Nazi party - the 10 points are eeringly similar to Trumpism.)  Antifa was founded as a direction reaction and resistance to the rise of Nazi popularism in Germany.

 

Ehh... the Spartacist League (later renamed Communist Party of Germany) was founded on 1914. They launched an armed revolt in 1919, before the founding of the NSDAP. Yeah, "Antifa" wasn't a thing until later, but it's true that the rise of the Nazis was thanks to, among other things, left-wing street violence and fears of a repeat of the October Revolution in Germany.

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Except nowhere in the Nazi's platform or manifesto was communism or anti-communism mentioned. 

 

Communism did not contribute to the rise of Nazi.  Two main reasons contributed to the rise of Nazi: (1) The Great Depression of Germany in 1929 to 1933, and (2) The crippling reparations and sanctions after Germany had lost World War I.

 

Here are the 10 points of the Nazi platform:

 

  • A union of all Germans to from a great Germany on the basis of the right to self-determination of peoples.

 

  • Abolition of the Treaty of Versailles.

 

  • Land and territory (colonies) for our surplus population.

 

  • German blood as a requirement for German citizenship. No Jew can be a member of the nation.

 

  • Non-citizens can live in Germany only as foreigners, subject to the law of aliens.

 

  • Only citizens can vote or hold public office.

   

  • The state insures that every citizen live decently and earn his livelihood. If it is impossible to provide food for the whole population, then aliens must be expelled.

   

  • No further immigration of non-Germans. Any non-German who entered Germany after August 2,1914, shall leave immediately.

 

  • A thorough reconstruction of our national system of education. The science of citizenship shall be taught from the beginning.

 

  • All newspapers must be published in the German language by German citizens and owners.

 

 

Highlighted are points that are reminiscent of Trump's nativist popularism.

Edited by ktchong
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Except nowhere in the Nazi's platform or manifesto was communism or anti-communism mentioned.

The Nazi party of 1920 and the Nazi party of 1932 were not quite the same. By that time, Hitler's views as expressed in Mein Kampf were basically the party's ideological corpus, and there's plenty of references to the evils of Marxism and "Judeo-Bolshevism" present in it.

 

Fun fact: Hitler was actually ordered to infiltrate and report on the nascent DAP by German military intelligence in 1919, after they had become aware of the risks posed by militant workers' movements. He ended up liking it quite a bit, and took it over for his own purposes.

 

 

Communism did not contribute to the rise of Nazi.  Two main reasons contributed to the rise of Nazi: (1) The Great Depression of Germany in 1929 to 1933, and (2) The crippling reparations and sanctions after Germany had lost World War I.

 

Ok guy. That was in size 5 lucilda so I'm totally convinced now.

- When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast.

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The anti fascist movement, was directly responsible for the fascist movement.

 

That's some great doublethink right there.

 

Again you misunderstood. 

They weren't responsible for fascist movement, but their methods of fighting them contributed to them taking power in those countries (Germany, Italy etc.)

 

I'm not convinced it's in the order of magnitude sufficient to lay blame - the Germans were tired of the systemic violence yes, but equally so of the brownshirts and liberals. Every major ideology of the time had violent splinter groups, the Germans were tired of the chaos, not the anti-fascists in and on themselves.

 

If the Communists had come to power, I would also argue against blaming the fascists. it's too simplistic to simply lay blame on an ideology you oppose, just because it's convenient and a half-truth...

 

Should you want to blame a major ideology, I'd blame imperialism and nationalism for that particular mess. They both excel at creating scapegoats, simply shifting blame downwards towards minority / easy-to-identity groups.

 

Anti-Fa has a host of problems, but nationalistic imperialism isn't one of them. They however fail to realize that fighting oppression of ethnocentrism with oppression of of the majority, never really solves the underlying problem. Namely that people want easy-fix solutions to larger-than-community problems.

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Big/small that's arguable and not the point.

 

That's where we disagree -that is exactly the point. It is all to easy to construct a greater believable lie out of smaller truths. Ideology is a stepping stone of things half said and half meant, that suddenly become monolithic dogma.

 

It's is important to see half-true accusations for what they are, otherwise they turn into justifiable persecution. 

 

And it seems very clear that this is stepping for you to lay blame on any that you deem remotely associated with Anti-fa. And association quickly becomes a very muddled tool of blame.

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Well accusations of xenophobia certainly came from a funny source this thread.

 

Antifa seem about as impactful as ultras.

Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

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Seriously though, Georg Elser was a good guy.

Just because he wanted to kill Hitler? That's a little slippery slope requirement to ne called good guy.
No, not only. Seems like an all around good guy. A pretty ordinary one as well, which makes it all the more remarkable. Tell me, Sharp One, when fascism comes to Poland, what will you do?

 

Antifa is not an organisation; anyone who actively fights fascism might be called an anti fascist. Of courses, where we draw that like might be a bit blurry, but in specific cases you can usually do that. And honestly, I do take comfort in the thought that there are people who might stand up against fascism.

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No, not only. Seems like an all around good guy. A pretty ordinary one as well, which makes it all the more remarkable.

He knocked up a lady and tried to force her for abortion. When that didn't worked out he left her.

He left his parents when they were in financial problems.

He had an affair with a married woman.

Not to mention he was a commie :)

Just from the top of my head. I've read about him over a decade ago when I was reading lots on WWII.

 

Tell me, Sharp One, when fascism comes to Poland, what will you do?

Oh, you know the same as we did when illegal immigrants and terrorists came to Poland.

Or what John III Sobieski did when he arrived in Vienna, we have it covered.

Never heard of that abortion thing. And didn't he even live with his parents shortly before the attack? But do educate me. Sources would be nice :)

 

He did vote communist but he never was a member of the KPD and Never participated in their rallies. He did join the RFB, a somewhat militant sub group of the KPD, but according to himself he never actively participated. Of courses, he told this to the Gestapo; but quite frankly it is going to be very difficult to prove anything else. He never was of significance before the bomb.

Everybody knows the deal is rotten

Old Black Joe's still pickin' cotton

For your ribbons and bows

And everybody knows

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There are people who want to come to Poland?

Well it is on the way to Moscow or Berlin.

Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

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There are people who want to come to Poland?

Well it is on the way to Moscow or Berlin.
Or from Berlin to Moscow. Edited by Ben No.3

Everybody knows the deal is rotten

Old Black Joe's still pickin' cotton

For your ribbons and bows

And everybody knows

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I definitely want to travel to Poland. It's pretty much the cheapest country to travel to from Norway. There's a saying here that going to Poland for a weekend actually saves you money.

 

Also, Krakow seems like a nice city.

Edited by Thingolfin
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And implying fascist to the country that suffered the most from nazi Germany is bizzare at best.

 

Not at all, in fact history shows how countries often emulate their oppressors. From Communists to Fascists, authoritarian political parties always draw out the disillusioned and disenfranchised.

 

For a somber example, some Israeli Jews have certainly learned from their history.

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Last time I was there I saw a lot of celtic crosses and bald teens wearing shirts with slogans like 'kill for the fatherland'. Between that and PIS being in charge, asking what they'll do when fascism comes to Poland seems to be behind the times.

Except we use the term motherland and wear christian crosses. So maybe you confused with Germany.

And implying fascist to the country that suffered the most from nazi Germany is bizzare at best.

Then call it nationalism.

Everybody knows the deal is rotten

Old Black Joe's still pickin' cotton

For your ribbons and bows

And everybody knows

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