Does the in-game damage record count auras, DoTs, etc.?

[Raven Darkholme]

MaxQuest,

 

I will download it ASAP then. I just got to level 9 maybe an hour ago, so perfect timing!

 

Also, I think you may have misunderstood my point about the 2 Chanters. One of them is a tank, and the other is a "DPS." I built the tank along the specifications that Boerer outlined in the Chillfog build. (He even got the traveling merchant shield - in fact, Azzuro offered it twice, and I only bought it once.) The DPS guy was initially using a dual wield set-up, but I switched him to a pikeman when it became too difficult to keep him alive. And the result is that up till level 9, the DPS guy did more than twice the damage. So what I am interested in is how much Dragon Thrashed would close that gap between the tanking Chanter and the DPS Chanter in the next 8 levels. And obviously a lot of that depends on how much damage Dragon Thrashed really does

Wait, you don't have a medium/large shield, tho?

Cuz that would lower his chant accuracy, too.

Edited September 5, 2017 by Raven Darkholme

[Lampros]

 

MaxQuest,

 

I will download it ASAP then. I just got to level 9 maybe an hour ago, so perfect timing!

 

Also, I think you may have misunderstood my point about the 2 Chanters. One of them is a tank, and the other is a "DPS." I built the tank along the specifications that Boerer outlined in the Chillfog build. (He even got the traveling merchant shield - in fact, Azzuro offered it twice, and I only bought it once.) The DPS guy was initially using a dual wield set-up, but I switched him to a pikeman when it became too difficult to keep him alive. And the result is that up till level 9, the DPS guy did more than twice the damage. So what I am interested in is how much Dragon Thrashed would close that gap between the tanking Chanter and the DPS Chanter in the next 8 levels. And obviously a lot of that depends on how much damage Dragon Thrashed really does

Wait, you don't have a medium/large shield, tho?

Cuz that would lower his chant accuracy, too.

 

 

My DPS guy is dual wield; and the tank has the traveling salesman medium shield from the Chillfog build. People posted that Azzuro never appears, so I was worried. But he's already shown up like 5 times?!

 

I think Solmar - or whatever the slave trader's name is - showed up even more often. I think I hung him, and he still came back

Edited September 6, 2017 by Lampros

[Lampros]

MaxQuest,

 

Your mod is incredible. Kudos. And I have a much better picture of what is going on damage-wise. Will post my tentative findings sometime.

[MaxQuest]

Thanks, glad to hear that)

 

My DPS guy is dual wield; and the tank has the traveling salesman medium shield from the Chillfog build. People posted that Azzuro never appears, so I was worried. But he's already shown up like 5 times?!

Well, Chillfog is is a tank, who takes defensive talents and uses defensive weapon.

While dual-wielder can take more offensive stuff.

 

For example:

- chillfog tank (sword + shield, plate, 4DEX) will make a swing once in 132 frames (~4.4s)

- dual-wielder (sabre + sabre, plate, 10DEX, Two-Weapon style) will make a swing once in ~74 frames (~2.5s; or x1.76 faster)

 

Not to mention that sabre deals more damage. Or you could even go for Sword of Daenysis + Azureith's Stiletto + Vulnerable Attack + TWS + Sanguine Plate; and deliver a hit every 47 frames (~1.56s; or x2.8 faster) each with 8 DR bypass.

 

Early-mid game there can be up to x2-x3 difference (in total damage done by these two chanters). But later it will get lower, because Dragon-Trashed (and to a lesser degree Seven Nights) will contribute the most to your damage output.

Edited September 6, 2017 by MaxQuest

[Lampros]

Thanks, glad to hear that)

 

My DPS guy is dual wield; and the tank has the traveling salesman medium shield from the Chillfog build. People posted that Azzuro never appears, so I was worried. But he's already shown up like 5 times?!

Well, Chillfog is is a tank, who takes defensive talents and uses defensive weapon.

While dual-wielder can take more offensive stuff.

 

For example:

- chillfog tank (sword + shield, plate, 4DEX) will make a swing once in 132 frames (~4.4s)

- dual-wielder (sabre + sabre, plate, 10DEX, Two-Weapon style) will make a swing once in ~74 frames (~2.5s; or x1.76 faster)

 

Not to mention that sabre deals more damage. Or you could even go for Sword of Daenysis + Azureith's Stiletto + Vulnerable Attack + TWS + Sanguine Plate; and deliver a hit every 47 frames (~1.56s; or x2.8 faster) each with 8 DR bypass.

 

Early-mid game there can be up to x2-x3 difference (in total damage done by these two chanters). But later it will get lower, because Dragon-Trashed (and to a lesser degree Seven Nights) will contribute the most to your damage output.

 

 

Yup. I am very interested in seeing how this thing shakes out by end-game.

 

By the way, I love Seven Nights, and I hate Sanguine Plate. Seven Nights did 60-100 damage on each Nalrend's Orcs (ridiculous!); so I am not sure whether I should keeping spamming Dragon Thrashed - or go for shorter phrases to get to Seven Nights faster. As for Sanguine Plate, I am not liking the Fury mechanic that hides Endurance. I simply cannot play that way.

[MaxQuest]

Yeap, Seven Nights is great. But it's damage is affected mainly by MIG. While DoT damage is increased by MIG AND INT, leading to some sweet damage coefficients)

As for Sanguine Plate, I am not liking the Fury mechanic that hides Endurance. I simply cannot play that way.

Just in case: you can hover over your character, and check the endurance color in the popup (on top-left of the window): green, yellow, red.

[Raven Darkholme]

Dragon thrashed is much stronger than seven Nights, since it constantly rolls vs reflex so even high reflex of enemies doesn't really matter (unless it's the 160 reflex of backstabbers in Brynlod's bounty ), while seven nights only rolls once and if it misses that's too bad, wait for another 5 phrases while using your awesome melee weapon.

[Lampros]

Yeap, Seven Nights is great. But it's damage is affected mainly by MIG. While DoT damage is increased by MIG AND INT, leading to some sweet damage coefficients)

As for Sanguine Plate, I am not liking the Fury mechanic that hides Endurance. I simply cannot play that way.

Just in case: you can hover over your character, and check the endurance color in the popup (on top-left of the window): green, yellow, red.

 

 

I know; but you are talking to a very lazy player! But honestly, it seems like a stupid mechanic that it inconveniences the player for no reason.

 

Dragon thrashed is much stronger than seven Nights, since it constantly rolls vs reflex so even high reflex of enemies doesn't really matter (unless it's the 160 reflex of backstabbers in Brynlod's bounty ), while seven nights only rolls once and if it misses that's too bad, wait for another 5 phrases while using your awesome melee weapon.

 

Right now I am mixing it up with 1st level Phrases, since they are quick and benefit me anyways.

 

Which Invocations do you use? Also, aren't there a lot of Fire Immunes end-game? Or not in this game?

[Boeroer]

There are some.

[Raven Darkholme]

Fire immune enemies get hit by the slash damage quite a bit the more the chants stacked.

With 6 chanters the Adra dragon got to injured before I even attacked it (buffing with llengrath's potion on each char and using Immunity to fear and Moonwell scroll with the lore chanter).

Ofc with 2 chanters the effect is slightly less crazy but still far better than seven nights (unless your acc is thru the roof I guess, using invocation exploit you could potentially oneshot the dragon ).

I also use 1st level phrases it shouldn't really stop the dragon chant from stacking.

[Lampros]

Fire immune enemies get hit by the slash damage quite a bit the more the chants stacked.

With 6 chanters the Adra dragon got to injured before I even attacked it (buffing with llengrath's potion on each char and using Immunity to fear and Moonwell scroll with the lore chanter).

Ofc with 2 chanters the effect is slightly less crazy but still far better than seven nights (unless your acc is thru the roof I guess, using invocation exploit you could potentially oneshot the dragon ).

I also use 1st level phrases it shouldn't really stop the dragon chant from stacking.

 

What is this "exploit"?

 

I use Dragon Thrashed plus Dull the Edge on one Chanter, and Dragon Thrashed plus At the Sight on the other.

[Raven Darkholme]

[Lampros]

 

Thanks!

 

I want to do it the normal way, of course. But I was just curious.

[MaxQuest]

Yup. I am very interested in seeing how this thing shakes out by end-game.

My party have finally arrived to level 10. And what I did is: note down the total damage inflicted by each party member, right before hitting level 9, and once again right after hitting level 10.

So, this is what I've got:

 

 

I knew that Dragon Trashed is good, but didn't expect it to outdps my main. Actually they were going toe-to-toe, but during The Battle of Yenwood Field, chanter took a clear lead.

[Boeroer]

Lots of small enemies with lowish defenses - no wonder.

 

Did you use an overseeing item + Voice of the Mountaintop?

[Lampros]

 

Yup. I am very interested in seeing how this thing shakes out by end-game.

My party have finally arrived to level 10. And what I did is: note down the total damage inflicted by each party member, right before hitting level 9, and once again right after hitting level 10.

So, this is what I've got:

 

 

I knew that Dragon Trashed is good, but didn't expect it to outdps my main. Actually they were going toe-to-toe, but during The Battle of Yenwood Field, chanter took a clear lead.

 

 

First, can you upload some videos of this set-up? I don't know how folks play efficiently with 3 or more melees when none of them have a reach weapon.

 

Second, as a point of comparison, my results were somewhat different - albeit our comparisons are not precisely on-point. Neither the Chanter tank nor the Tall Grass Chanter could out-DPS my dual wield Paladin once he got Sacred Immolation at level 13. But again, we are comparing Chanter v. a DPS character who has his own massive AoE. I have yet to run a pure single target DPS character with no significant AoE, and that would be also an interesting test (say, a Chanter tank v. a pure DPS Rogue?).

[MaxQuest]

First, can you upload some videos of this set-up? I don't know how folks play efficiently with 3 or more melees when none of them have a reach weapon.

Hmm ok. My party is currently in Clîaban Rilag, so here is the fight with spores: link.

And the fight vs druids is currently uploading.

 

Edit #1: here it is: link.

 

Edit #2: just did the Nalrend bounty: link.

Btw the group of ogres outside of the cave is tougher than Nalrend's gang)

 

Edit #3: just ding'ed level 11. You can see the total damage here.

Edited September 25, 2017 by MaxQuest

[MasterCipher]

Hi Lampros, ty for uploading the vids. It seemed like you burned down the enemies really fast, which would give dragon thrash a dps edge since it's passive and enemies aren't dying before other characters finish activating their abilities. Also, if you have 1 chanter using dragon thrash, the rest of your party doesn't get the full benefits the 25% flame lash chant. Dragon thrash is a top notch dps ability, but my opinion is that that  etcopsychic crush with flame lash would come out ahead. What difficulty are you playing on?

[Boeroer]

Erm... it's MaxQuest who uploaded the videos and he's playing on PotD.

[Natures Bounty]

 

Yup. I am very interested in seeing how this thing shakes out by end-game.

My party have finally arrived to level 10. And what I did is: note down the total damage inflicted by each party member, right before hitting level 9, and once again right after hitting level 10.

So, this is what I've got:

 

 

I knew that Dragon Trashed is good, but didn't expect it to outdps my main. Actually they were going toe-to-toe, but during The Battle of Yenwood Field, chanter took a clear lead.

 

 

Thank you for the interesting overview, MaxQuest. If I remember correctly, your mod introduced some changes for elemental talents, e.g. scion of flame applying to the Dragon chant. Is that true? And did you go with Scion of Flame on your chanter? because it would be interesting to know whether you obtained these numbers with or without the fire talent.

[MaxQuest]

Thank you for the interesting overview, MaxQuest. If I remember correctly, your mod introduced some changes for elemental talents, e.g. scion of flame applying to the Dragon chant. Is that true? And did you go with Scion of Flame on your chanter? because it would be interesting to know whether you obtained these numbers with or without the fire talent.

I have indeed taken Scion of Flame. And let's estimate how much did it help. At 20 MIG/22 INT:

- w/o Scion: DoT damage = 1.3*1.6 slash base_dmg + 1.3*1.6 burn base_dmg = 4.16 base_dmg vs targets of 0 DR

- with Scion: DoT damage = 1.3*1.6 slash base_dmg + 1.3*1.6*1.2 burn base_dmg = 4.58 base_dmg vs targets of 0 DR

So it's a ~10% damage increase vs 0 DR (and I would expect ~15% damage increase vs targets of 20 DR).

 

---

Also here's another snapshot:

(*) pre - means right before hitting that level

 

---

Also, if you have 1 chanter using dragon thrash, the rest of your party doesn't get the full benefits the 25% flame lash chant. Dragon thrash is a top notch dps ability, but my opinion is that that etcopsychic crush with flame lash would come out ahead. What difficulty are you playing on?

Initially I was a big fan of Aefyllath as well. It's a great chant that increases your damage by 25% (for non-DoT spells and unlashed auto-attacks), by 20% (for lashed auto-attacks) and by 0% for DoTs.

 

This is my first run when I am using Dragon Trashed.

As you can see:

- from lvl _9 to 10, chanter dealt: 10496 = 28.8% out of 36416 (total party damage)

- from lvl 10 to 11, chanter dealt: 18618 = 32.3% out of 57506 (total party damage)

- from lvl 11 to 12, chanter dealt: 23821 = 38.4% out of 61959 (total party damage)

- from lvl 12 to 13, chanter dealt: _7985 = 26.0% out of 30650 (total party damage)

 

And currently he is my #3 damage contributor.

Barbarian btw also made a step forward. First: when he got access to HoF; and second: to durganized dual bittercuts + decay. And on 13th level there is Dragon Leap which helps a lot with positioning.

 

 

As for echo - I spammed that a lot during my very first playthrough (which I started on hard and than switched to PotD around lvl 7).

I would say on that difficulty it is superb. But on PotD there could be placement problems, because even if you try to stealth a ranger's pet behind enemy ranks it either gets occasionally killed, stuck, blocked. So I find it closer to being situational now. So far, everything except for upscaled Battery Sirens was dying so fast it was no point to play with additional micro.

Edited September 26, 2017 by MaxQuest

[Boeroer]

You should add a dual wielding rogue to the comparison.

[MaxQuest]

And how would I do that

You can't just pick him and put into existing party. A melee rogue needs the whole party built around him.

Additionally no-cc and no-aoe coupled with the extra micro, and the need in extra supervision (by party debilitators) make rogue feel subpar for me. And I am often lazy to even start with a shot from Lead Spitter which I carry in the offset of my MC. 

[Boeroer]

Fortunately that was supposed to be a joke.

[Lampros]

 

First, can you upload some videos of this set-up? I don't know how folks play efficiently with 3 or more melees when none of them have a reach weapon.

Hmm ok. My party is currently in Clîaban Rilag, so here is the fight with spores: link.

And the fight vs druids is currently uploading.

 

Edit #1: here it is: link.

 

Edit #2: just did the Nalrend bounty: link.

Btw the group of ogres outside of the cave is tougher than Nalrend's gang)

 

Edit #3: just ding'ed level 11. You can see the total damage here.

 

 

Sorry, I was offline for a bit. I had some browser issues.

 

Anyways, first and foremost, thank you very much for posting these. The Cliaban Rilag Spore video is particularly apt, because I am also around the same level in my PotD run (10), and I have been intentionally avoiding this fight precisely because of the Spores.

 

Now to the questions:

 

1. The most striking thing I noticed was that you did not use consumables or summons - at least in the videos I saw. Given that they are the only thing that is keeping me afloat in my first PotD run, I was curious: Do you not use them at all - or was it simply a matter of these being easy fights that did not require them? In particular, I am quaffing so many Vital Essence potion and using 3-4 summon trinkets every hard fight. (In fact, I am afraid I will soon be stuck, since I can progressively see these being less impactful - Vital Essence potion is healing far less percentage of my Endurance/Health per damage taken as I level; and nothing but Adra Beetle is surviving all that long once you hit harder mobs in WM, I notice.)

 

2. May I ask why the Gyrd is on the Priest? I would imagine it would work better for the Wizard? Or are you planning on giving the Golden Gaze to the Wizard? In my case, the Priest has very little opportunity to auto-attack, as she is constantly casting.

 

3. I could be blind, but I thought I saw someone "chant Dragon Roar." What in the world is that? I could not even find it in Wikia. Is that a custom talent or ability?

 

Once again, thanks much!

 

Hi Lampros, ty for uploading the vids. It seemed like you burned down the enemies really fast, which would give dragon thrash a dps edge since it's passive and enemies aren't dying before other characters finish activating their abilities. Also, if you have 1 chanter using dragon thrash, the rest of your party doesn't get the full benefits the 25% flame lash chant. Dragon thrash is a top notch dps ability, but my opinion is that that  etcopsychic crush with flame lash would come out ahead. What difficulty are you playing on?

 

I know you were in fact addressing MaxQuest, but I cannot imagine how any class but a Sacred Immolation Paladin can match Dragon Thrashed DPS - at least in PotD. I think the vanilla damage recorder gives a very misleading picture of how the DPS picture stands. If you have the UPMod - which records DoTs and not just direct damage - you will see what I mean.

 

And how would I do that

You can't just pick him and put into existing party. A melee rogue needs the whole party built around him.

Additionally no-cc and no-aoe coupled with the extra micro, and the need in extra supervision (by party debilitators) make rogue feel subpar for me. And I am often lazy to even start with a shot from Lead Spitter which I carry in the offset of my MC. 

 

I was going to devote a whole separate thread - or at least post - on this issue alone, but my recent PotD run has made me realize how useless Rogue is in PotD (unless you build everything around the Rogue perhaps). From my Normal playthrough, I knew his DPS was going to be mediocre as a ranged DPS, but I thought he would help with the CC with Borresaine. But the problem? His crit rate is about 25 percent at level 10, so Borresaine is not doing much. A bit of this is a PotD issue - where mobs have higher Deflection - but not all. For instance, my "hybrid" Fighter is averaging a stunning 70 percent crit rate; and even my defensive Paladin is averaging about 20 percent now.

 

And the DPS? Here are two separate pictures - at level 9 and at level 10. Keep in mind that I had to change plans and force both the Paladin and the Fighter to tank until level 10 (when they finally had enough gear and talents to go more offensive builds):

 

Pre-level 9:

 

Paladin MC (1st line/main tank) (Shame & Glory/Outworn Buckler): 22,511

Fighter (1st line/off-tank) (Shatterstar & Sura's Supper Plate): 32,561

Chanter (2nd line/DPS) (Tall Grass) 28,143

Rogue (3rd line/DPS/CC?) (Borresaine) 34,978

Wizard (3rd line/DPS/CC) (Gyrd) 33, 320

Priest (3rd line/buff/DPS) (Grudge Keeper) 15,983

 

Pre-level 10:

 

Paladin (1st line/DPS) (Tidefall): 33,485

Fighter (1st line/DPS) (Shatterstar/Hearth Harvest): 43,631

Chanter (2nd line/DPS) (Tall Grass) 56,880

Rogue (3rd line/DPS/CC?) (Borresaine) 41,581

Wizard (3rd line/DPS/CC) (Gyrd)  42,291

Priest (3rd line/buff/DPS) (Grudge Keeper) 19,915

 

Yeah, these are NOT typos.

 

Edit: I am going to re-start, largely because I am fed up with "carrying" the Rogue, and he is going to make harder future fights really hard.

Edited September 27, 2017 by Lampros