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Walking Part 2


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#61
Messier-31

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This.

 

Dr Lephystone, I presume.



#62
Lephys

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*adjusts spectacles... opens clipboard pad to fresh sheet of paper*

 

*clicky* ... Why don't you just relax and tell me why you think you feel the need to run everywhere, and when this all started. Your childhood, perhaps?


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#63
Wormerine

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*adjusts spectacles... opens clipboard pad to fresh sheet of paper*

 

*clicky* ... Why don't you just relax and tell me why you think you feel the need to run everywhere, and when this all started. Your childhood, perhaps?

Well Doctor... I suppose I want my character to be what I can't be in real life. He gets all the attractive women. He is an asset to the comunity. He is important and respected. He fights injustice and evil when he sees it. He is also more... well... fit. You see I am always late. And it is not because of poor planning... there just aren't enough hours in a day. Now, if I could only move faster. Sadly with a backpack and violin in hand I can't run very far. So after leaving work I am late for a bus I could have caught. I could sleep in on weekends if I could do my errands quicker. So when I am gaming I want my character to run. Always. Not because he has to. But because he can.


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#64
Lephys

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Interesting, interesting... *places butt-end of pen against lips in deep thought*.

 

I too have such desires. But I have naught the time for running, you see. It's so... primitive. I wish for my character to simply teleport instantly to any place on the map I'd like. And I also wish for a "reveal entire map and slay all creatures" button, so that I'm not bothered with time-consuming exploration at a finite speed like I would be in real life.

 

If Run_Speed < infinity

       ++Run_Speed;

 

Am I right? :)



#65
Wormerine

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Interesting, interesting... *places butt-end of pen against lips in deep thought*.

 

I too have such desires. But I have naught the time for running, you see. It's so... primitive. I wish for my character to simply teleport instantly to any place on the map I'd like. And I also wish for a "reveal entire map and slay all creatures" button, so that I'm not bothered with time-consuming exploration at a finite speed like I would be in real life.

 

If Run_Speed < infinity

       ++Run_Speed;

 

Am I right? :)

Yes, Doctor! Yes, Yes, YESSSSSSS!!!!

But wait.... now I want to be able to teleport everywhere in Deadfire. What have you done? YOU CHARLATAIN! YOU MADE THINGS WORSE!!!



#66
Messier-31

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Well, that escalated quickly.

 

For the record, me saying "Dr Lephystone, I presume" was not implying that Lephys is a walk-doctor. It was a reference to the famous greeting of Henry Morton Stanley upon locating David Livingstone in Africa. Dude's been missing for a long time.


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#67
Hertzila

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I'll just repeat what I said last time: I'm not opposed to a mechanics-neutral walk toggle, be that a "walk/run everywhere" button or a Divinity: Original Sin 2 style "walk short distances" toggle in the Gameplay menu (or somewhere). I'll most likely never touch that (in favour of running everywhere) but some people seem to really like the option and it seems harmless and easy enough, so why not.

 

However, the moment you start introducing mechanical differences to it is the moment I vote against it. Introducing something like fatigue penalties for running too much or trap-spotting penalties or, Magran forbid, guards getting pissy and bothering you for running everywhere is not something I want to deal with. Sure, it might look weird, but so do a lot of things when you start looking for it. Why should a player be forced to move slower than they can if they are just moving somewhere?



#68
Lephys

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Ahhhh. I did not catch that reference. My apologies. :p.

 

I have been missing for a while... haha. Not in the wilds of Africa, though.


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#69
FlintlockJazz

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Well, that escalated quickly.

 

For the record, me saying "Dr Lephystone, I presume" was not implying that Lephys is a walk-doctor. It was a reference to the famous greeting of Henry Morton Stanley upon locating David Livingstone in Africa. Dude's been missing for a long time.

Yeah, that's what I thought you were referencing, and have no idea wtf they were doing... :blink:  Crazy punks.


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#70
Wormerine

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Well, that escalated quickly.

For the record, me saying "Dr Lephystone, I presume" was not implying that Lephys is a walk-doctor. It was a reference to the famous greeting of Henry Morton Stanley upon locating David Livingstone in Africa. Dude's been missing for a long time.

Yeah, that's what I thought you were referencing, and have no idea wtf they were doing... :blink: Crazy punks.
Improv... I don't think I am a very good comedian.

https://youtu.be/huJ81Mq2y34

Edited by Wormerine, 20 September 2017 - 06:54 AM.

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#71
Lephys

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However, the moment you start introducing mechanical differences to it is the moment I vote against it. Introducing something like fatigue penalties for running too much or trap-spotting penalties or, Magran forbid, guards getting pissy and bothering you for running everywhere is not something I want to deal with. Sure, it might look weird, but so do a lot of things when you start looking for it. Why should a player be forced to move slower than they can if they are just moving somewhere?

 

That's all just superficial stuff, though. Simulation for simulation's sake is silly. For what it's worth, I tend to favor the "everyone moves at the same speed until combat is entered" notion for party movement, as it's almost pointless for different characters to suffer different movement speeds in general travel. And I agree that having guards or people get mad and actually detriment you for trying to sprint all over the place is a bit pointless. The cons outweigh the pros. It's kind of like the weapons-sheathed thing. "Oh, hey, you can't have your weapons out in-town!". I get that it simulates a real reaction, but to what end? Now, if your party had to PEACE-TIE their weapons upon entering town... that would be a significant difference. Maybe with a good enough Sleight-of-Hand (or something similar) check, you could make the guards THINK your weapons were peace-tied, but when you got into trouble in town with ruffians who obviously wouldn't obey the law, you could draw them quickly. Otherwise, getting into trouble in a city/town would require time for your characters to cut the peace ties/untie them. Etc.

 

Anywho, the point is, if it's not accomplishing something gameplay-wise or affecting the player's decision-making in an interesting way, it's not worth putting in. That's why I wouldn't be happy with just a walk-toggle slapped into the game. I mean, I guess that'd be 3% better than just-running everywhere, but it wouldn't provide much benefit for its own sake. I want there to be mechanical differences, but not just superficial stuff. Honestly, I think there should be a RUN-toggle, and running would use stamina. You can say that's a punishment, but it's no more a punishment than a limit on anything else in the game. Finite health isn't a punishment. Non-instant casting times aren't a punishment. So, basically, I'd be fine with your being ABLE to sprint all over the place, with very little down-time, but you'd make a lot more noise and draw a lot more attention to yourself. Not to mention that the sheer speed with which you move would make it much more likely for you to sprint straight into a dangerous situation. That's not even the game punishing anyone, that's just a natural consequence of moving faster. Not only are you not going to sneak up on anyone, but you're going to have nearby groups of bandits go "Hey, what's that? Sounds like people overtly clomping down the path nearby! Let's set up an ambush!". Of course, not every foe would react the same way, so it's not just a blanket "everything ambushes you" consequence.

 

But, yeah, the reason you should want to move more slowly than you can is because there are actual reasons to do that. If there's no reason to ever move more slowly than you can, then there's never any reason to even have options. That's like asking "Why should you ever use a less-powerful ability than your most powerful ability?" Because it's limited, and you should probably use it when you need it, and don't use it when you don't. It's up to you, though. You can use it all the time if you want (as much as possible), then be without something when you need it (in the case of running, you'll be without stamina in this example). It's a trade-off, and not just one for its own sake. It's there to make your choices significant. If you had infinite powerful spells, then what would be the point in any other options? That's like having a puzzle in which doing ANYthing is the solution. It defeats the point of the puzzle.

 

I mean, if you want a game in which nothing has to be managed or considered, that's not inherently a bad game. It could be enjoyable to some. But, in its own context, the game has reasons to limit certain things, and require consideration and management of these finite resources. Again, limits and resource management for their own sake do nothing for such a game. i.e. "survival" mechanics, in which you must have food and water, etc., simply to avoid penalties or death. If your only choice is between death or a chore, then there's no point. However, in that example, if different kinds of food and water could affect the rest of the gameplay, and there were more robust choices within that survival mechanic, then it could be pretty cool.


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#72
Wormerine

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I agree completely. The problem is the system you are talking about already exists. Except instead of walking there is sneaking. You move slower but are in the "sneak" mode. As PoE had a noise simulation I imagine running is noisy and if you run in hostile situation you can attract enemies. We know for sure that spells make various amount of noise, meaning if you are sneaking through a castle and attract a guard and you decide to dispatch him with a fireball you might attract nearby patrols.

What people are asking is literally a fluff option to walk for immersion sake for role playing purposes.
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#73
Lephys

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Ehh... it exists, but sneaking is not the same thing as normal walking (and not just "RP" walking). That's like saying, in a driving game, that a lower gear is already provided for you. You can just drive around in reverse if you don't want to drive around in 5th gear all the time! But that obviously isn't the same thing. No one wants to creep around sneakily everywhere they go. But they also don't want to power-sprint every second of every day like it's just normal.

 

If this weren't the type of RPG it is, I'd say don't even worry about it. And I know many are asking for the fluff toggle, but on-topic I'm asking for it to be slightly more substantial. Walking does not equal super-slow-speed. It's just slow-ER than running. And running/sprinting is a distinct thing from just getting around. There are essentially 3 intuitive speeds with which we move around:

 

1) at our normal pace.

2) in a hurry

3) cautiously

 

So, it makes sense for walk to be the default, then run/sprint to be used when you need more speed and care less about noise/caution, and sneak to be used when you care much more about caution than speed.

 

The fact that 2 different movement speeds already exist in the game is, in some ways, MORE reason to go ahead and put all 3 in. No one's asking for 17 movement speeds or anything. Being able to run as opposed to walking, and having it matter, would be useful and would serve a purpose, rather than just being something nice to have because roleplaying.

 

 

EDIT: I had to change "slowe-ER" to "slow-ER"... it was bugging me furiously.


Edited by Lephys, 20 September 2017 - 10:41 AM.


#74
Wormerine

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Ehh... it exists, but sneaking is not the same thing as normal walking (and not just "RP" walking). That's like saying, in a driving game, that a lower gear is already provided for you. You can just drive around in reverse if you don't want to drive around in 5th gear all the time! But that obviously isn't the same thing. No one wants to creep around sneakily everywhere they go. But they also don't want to power-sprint every second of every day like it's just normal.
 
If this weren't the type of RPG it is, I'd say don't even worry about it. And I know many are asking for the fluff toggle, but on-topic I'm asking for it to be slightly more substantial. Walking does not equal super-slow-speed. It's just slowe-ER than running. And running/sprinting is a distinct thing from just getting around. There are essentially 3 intuitive speeds with which we move around:
 
1) at our normal pace.
2) in a hurry
3) cautiously
 
So, it makes sense for walk to be the default, then run/sprint to be used when you need more speed and care less about noise/caution, and sneak to be used when you care much more about caution than speed.
 
The fact that 2 different movement speeds already exist in the game is, in some ways, MORE reason to go ahead and put all 3 in. No one's asking for 17 movement speeds or anything. Being able to run as opposed to walking, and having it matter, would be useful and would serve a purpose, rather than just being something nice to have because roleplaying.


As a big fan of stealth genre I can see benefits of multi-layered walking speed.




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