Request: Non-binary player character

[Lord_Mord]

 

Sakai, on 18 Aug 2017 - 7:20 PM, said:

Something i don't get is when exactly male/female started meaning anything other than someones genitals? Why are some people so obsessed with this non-binary stuff, when that choice is literally just a choice of a character model and doesn't describe your personality in any way whatsoever. 

This, I think, goes to the core of the problem

 

Because what they want is that it is more than the choice of a character model. I belive that most of those who want that option would be satisfied if the game just adressed them es gender neutral. I think we already agreed that it does not make sense in conversations (As noone in the game world could possibly know, that the main char defines it's gender as neutral). So if the game would use a third gender inside descriptive texts that would be enough I think. Which isn't a great deal. I'm a developer, I should know.

 

Claiming that genders means nothing but your genitals isn't true, by the way. You wouldn't like it if I adressed you as she or it, wouldn't you?

[Juodas Varnas]

You wouldn't like it if I adressed you as she or it, wouldn't you?

 

Truthfully? I couldn't give less of a **** about how someone addressed me.

[algroth]

 

Something i don't get is when exactly male/female started meaning anything other than someones genitals? Why are some people so obsessed with this non-binary stuff, when that choice is literally just a choice of a character model and doesn't describe your personality in any way whatsoever. 

This, I think, goes to the core of the problem

 

So, let's consider this scenario: imagine we have two alternate realities that are exactly the same with the exception that an individual is born either male or female. Do you think this person would thirty years later be the *same* person in both realities, just with different genitals? You don't think their sex would inevitably condition their relationship with others, their acquaintances and social groups and the expectations set upon them?

 

In the case of Deadfire particularly, this aspect can all amount to a character model, but for the sake of those who roleplay as opposed to using the main character as a player stand-in, sex or gender can determine a number of things with regards to a character's identity. Also if the game does reflect a difference between male and female in the setting and interactions (as is the case with the prohibition of female members in the Brotherhood of the Five Suns, or is likely to be the case with what romances are made available to the player), then for content reasons sex also determines more than just a choice of character model.

 

As has been shown before though, the choice is not one of gender but one of sex - you are never made to choose your gender in the game. It's a distinction that could be worked on provided it is worked with enough subtlety or attention to not be a direct transposition of terms and politics of our current time bubble into this world, and if so it could also offer more diversity in the character that one wishes to roleplay as, or the ability for a non-cis player who views their character as their avatar to feel more represented by it in turn.

Edited August 30, 2017 by algroth

[Lord_Mord]

 

Truthfully? I couldn't give less of a **** about how someone addressed me.

 

Nor do I. But in my experience most people do.

[ThatUndeadLegacy]

can't believe this awful troll got 180 + replies xD

 

wait does that make it a good troll?

Edited August 30, 2017 by ThatUndeadLegacy

[smjjames]

They didn't succeed in generating a flamewar, which is usually what trolls try to do.

[Fluffle]

[MortyTheGobbo]

can't believe this awful troll got 180 + replies xD

 

wait does that make it a good troll?

 

I would instead say that the people outraged by someone having the audacity to even bring up this topic haven't managed to detract from an actually worthwhile discussion.

[JerekKruger]

Yeah, by and large this has actually been a pretty civil and interesting discussion on a topic that, in many parts of the internet, often results in flame wars.

[ThatUndeadLegacy]

 

can't believe this awful troll got 180 + replies xD

 

wait does that make it a good troll?

 

I would instead say that the people outraged by someone having the audacity to even bring up this topic haven't managed to detract from an actually worthwhile discussion.

 

I would say something cheesy like out love of Obsidian is controlling our flame war urges?  

[Lord_Mord]

 

can't believe this awful troll got 180 + replies xD

 

wait does that make it a good troll?

 

Who is the troll? The OP or the one continously trying to change this discussion into a discussion about trolling?

[FlintlockJazz]

 

 

can't believe this awful troll got 180 + replies xD

 

wait does that make it a good troll?

 

Who is the troll? The OP or the one continously trying to change this discussion into a discussion about trolling?

 

Who is the most trollish?  The troll or the troll that trolls him?

[ThatUndeadLegacy]

 

 

can't believe this awful troll got 180 + replies xD

 

wait does that make it a good troll?

 

Who is the troll? The OP or the one continously trying to change this discussion into a discussion about trolling?

 

well its more productive than our original discussion. 

[Lord_Mord]

well its more productive than our original discussion.

 

Speaking of which, ... I claimed twice that adressing charname in descriptive texts as "them" or whatever would suffice. As I am not affected by this whole matter, it was rather presumptuous of me. What do you think about it?

 

This two-spirited-thing seems to be a rather modern invention. I'm not very interested in that as I find the current activites of any LGBT or whatever community rather boring. I'm more interested from a historical/traditional point of view.

Inuraj claimed that a transgender person in certain native american tribes would have been expected to be a shaman. On the "transgender people and religion" wikipedia article I found nothing about that, also other cultures had similar ideas. Googling only brought me back to that two-spirited-stuff.

EbonyBetty said that in nigeria transgender persons are called "Zuru oni okè". Googling that I only found bull**** and this thread.

[EbonyBetty]

 

well its more productive than our original discussion.

 

Speaking of which, ... I claimed twice that adressing charname in descriptive texts as "them" or whatever would suffice. As I am not affected by this whole matter, it was rather presumptuous of me. What do you think about it?

 

This two-spirited-thing seems to be a rather modern invention. I'm not very interested in that as I find the current activites of any LGBT or whatever community rather boring. I'm more interested from a historical/traditional point of view.

Inuraj claimed that a transgender person in certain native american tribes would have been expected to be a shaman. On the "transgender people and religion" wikipedia article I found nothing about that, also other cultures had similar ideas. Googling only brought me back to that two-spirited-stuff.

EbonyBetty said that in nigeria transgender persons are called "Zuru oni okè". Googling that I only found bull**** and this thread.

 

Yikes! What was the bull**** you found? I know that stuff from the African studies professor Karenga and one of his books: Kawaida and questions of life and struggle: African American, Pan-African, and global issues. On a separate note and not necessarily about trans people in Nigeria in itself but about how Nigerians view gender roles can be seen in their mascarade dances such as this (esp. 1:30 and 2:00 minute mark: 

 

This is specific to the Igbo Tribe. It happens once or twice year around harvest season or 'New Yam.' It's usually men that wear the costumes and do the dancing, while women and children watch. The men can wear masks that have feminine features and “…highly caricatural dances underline this male/female duality.” White is often seen a feminine color in the Igbo community and even though patrilineage is the ruling structure, the importance of women is amplified in the masked dances of the ‘Agbo mmaung’, or maiden spirit mask.

 

I'm sorry you didn't find much about the Zuru oni okè, maybe try just Ori? When can mean spirits and soul in Yourba language. Also, there are nonbinary or intersex spirits in Hatian vodun that I forgot to mention! Which is really sad because most of my family from my paternal side is from Grenada and Haiti. I'll come back about it, with actual sources and stuff you can actually look up this time. Karenga's book looks to be out of print and might be hard to verify. 

Edited August 31, 2017 by EbonyBetty

[EbonyBetty]

Okay here we go! LGBT and voodoo, WHOOO!! Apologies that these are mostly Wiki pages but I was just doing a quick search, I also read them over and they're legit. Anywho,

 

Baron Samedi is the leader of the Ghedes and Barons and is bisexual and can be portrayed as trans or either cross dressing.

 

I also have to mention the Loas or "deities" of voodoo have two sides of them. Kind of like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. Ghedes = Jekyll, you pray to that version of the Loa when you want comfort, protection, and love.

 

Barons = Hyde, you pray to that version of the Loa when you want revenge, justice, truth, and vindication. Some Loas like being Baron or Ghedes more (Baron Samedi enjoys being a trickster and is often up to no good) but they often will switch genders depending if they're Baron or a Ghedes!

 

Erzulie is the Loa associated with love, sensuality, and beauty. They're also the protector of gay men (while in form of a woman aka Erzulie Freda)  while lesbians are their proteges and followers (when they're in form of a man aka  Erzulie Dantor.) They will often possess a person that asks for them and person will crave pleasure from all sexes regardless of their sexuality before possession.   

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/irene-monroe/vodous-acceptance-of-gays_b_821215.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_themes_in_African_diasporic_mythologies

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haitian_Vodou_and_sexual_orientation

 

There's more but I gotta get to class!!

[CrumpetsForBreakfast]

I agree an RPG should give more options for what kind of character you play, at least giving options to play something that relates to yourself. Unless the whole point of the setting is to play a robot or mystical monster creature.

 

It would be a lot more progressive and respectful than having yet another poorly written token gay or trans character in an rpg whose entire identity is "hi I'm gay btw" which is generally insulting to LGBTQA anyway.

 

Playing non heteronormative binary characters happens in table top games so it's nothing new, it would just mean a computer game is finally catching up.

[Lord_Mord]

 

Okay here we go! LGBT and voodoo, WHOOO!! Apologies that these are mostly Wiki pages but I was just doing a quick search, I also read them over and they're legit. Anywho,

 

Baron Samedi is the leader of the Ghedes and Barons and is bisexual and can be portrayed as trans or either cross dressing.

 

I also have to mention the Loas or "deities" of voodoo have two sides of them. Kind of like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. Ghedes = Jekyll, you pray to that version of the Loa when you want comfort, protection, and love.

 

Barons = Hyde, you pray to that version of the Loa when you want revenge, justice, truth, and vindication. Some Loas like being Baron or Ghedes more (Baron Samedi enjoys being a trickster and is often up to no good) but they often will switch genders depending if they're Baron or a Ghedes!

 

Erzulie is the Loa associated with love, sensuality, and beauty. They're also the protector of gay men (while in form of a woman aka Erzulie Freda)  while lesbians are their proteges and followers (when they're in form of a man aka  Erzulie Dantor.) They will often possess a person that asks for them and person will crave pleasure from all sexes regardless of their sexuality before possession.

 

I already stumbled upon Baron Samedi yesterday. I like that guy (I always liked the trickster types.). Seems like everyone knows him, except for me. He even was in a disney movie and James Bond. I should find out more about voodoo, it's even cooler than I thought.

 

What bothers me a bit, is that for all those articles the sources are mostly books about LGBT themes, to be exact most of the books are from Conner & Sparks. That either means that other authors are not interested in this topic or even trying to avoid it or that the LGBT authors see the world through their eyes. I have this habit of not trusting an author with a possible agenda. Like creationists who are always referring to creationists books.

 

I'm trying to find out if the inclusion of LGBT topics into those religions/cultures is a modern interpretation or if these things really go back to the roots.

 

Btw: Do you really know something about that stuff, or is it just a bit of personal interest?

 

 

Yikes! What was the bull**** you found?

 

Nothing related to the topic. Just similar words.

 

That dance is really cool (Especially after having a funny cigarette), but without knowing anything about that culture it could be interpreted in several ways. Like that Japanese Kabuki stuff (One of those masks looks so ****ing Japanese) or theatre in ancient times, when women just weren't allowed to play on stage, so men had to take the female roles.

 

 

P.S.: I am getting the feeling that I'm accidentally trolling this thread. I would like to continue with that topic, but this does not seem the proper place. Maybe we should get a room or something. Any ideas?

[Lord_Mord]

 

It would be a lot more progressive and respectful than having yet another poorly written token gay or trans character in an rpg whose entire identity is "hi I'm gay btw" which is generally insulting to LGBTQA anyway.

 

Having an option to choose another gender would only shift that problem, because:

 

Option 1: You choose your new gender, let's say it is super neutral. You will be called 'it'. The game would adress you that way. The NPCs would not know of the fact, that you like to be adressed that way, so unless you tell them nothing would change. If you tell them, you would have that stupid conversation every time, then you would be called "it", but what is gained by that?

 

Option 2: Something more obvious. Your character is queer. Let's make it really obvious, so that the game can actually respond. You can dress your character in bright colors and give him womens cloths (or vice versa). Three possible scenarios:

 

a) The game will just accept you, as you are. So in fact nothing happens. If queer people are perfectly normal in the game world, the game world have no reason to react to it (Apart from romances, which is not the topic of this thread). Your character would be the same as any male or female character but with bright clothes.

 

b) The game will react in a positive way. Like: "Oh, you are so brave to show your true self like that". In this case you would be the "Hi, I'm gay"-guy.

 

c) The game will react in a negative way. Now people will complain, that the game world just reflects the real world, which is very depressing.

 

So what do you propose?

 

P.S.: I'm not trying to attack you or something. I just want to know how you imagine your ideal game to be. And please: Nothing about romances. I've enough about romance discussions.

[algroth]

P.S.: I am getting the feeling that I'm accidentally trolling this thread. I would like to continue with that topic, but this does not seem the proper place. Maybe we should get a room or something. Any ideas?

 

I see what's on your mind.

 

(I'm enjoying reading your discussion, don't see it as trolling at all.)

[algroth]

I agree an RPG should give more options for what kind of character you play, at least giving options to play something that relates to yourself. Unless the whole point of the setting is to play a robot or mystical monster creature.

 

It would be a lot more progressive and respectful than having yet another poorly written token gay or trans character in an rpg whose entire identity is "hi I'm gay btw" which is generally insulting to LGBTQA anyway.

 

Playing non heteronormative binary characters happens in table top games so it's nothing new, it would just mean a computer game is finally catching up.

 

The big difference between tabletop and cRPGs is that the former is only limited by the player and DM's imagination in this regard, whereas the latter offers only as broad a set of choices and variables as what's been implemented into the game by its developers. This is a key distinction because if in the world of tabletop you opt to play a non-cis character then you are free to approach and portray the topic as you wish through your own personal responses and interactions with the DM and other players. In a cRPG you don't necessarily have that sort of freedom, so the choice of making your character non-cis can only lead to as important and detailed a characteristic as the game's content allows it to be. By just offering the choice and little more you could just as well be transferring the token gesture from an NPC onto a non-reactive option. It could just as easily stick out like a sore thumb and not really work towards a goal of representation either (which, as I argued before, should also not be a sole goal in and of itself).

[warg]

In the game mechanics I could imagine this like they would enable all the cosmetic stuff on all body tipes or similar.

But in the game there are still many texts where he/she is mentioned, there it could be interesting to give another option instead of this 2...

But I wouldn't mind, freedom for all!

[Umbersona]

I love the idea of non-binary characters in fiction. Fiction should reflect the real world, and imagine the narrative possibilities opened up by these folks unique perspective.

 

I am all for opening up customization options across the genders.

[ThatUndeadLegacy]

I love the idea of non-binary characters in fiction. Fiction should reflect the real world, and imagine the narrative possibilities opened up by these folks unique perspective.

 

I am all for opening up customization options across the genders.

[Lord_Mord]

 

Fiction should reflect the real world

 

Should it?