Terror attack in Barcelona

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

as i said: i don't judge people,

 

Uh huh.

 

well, i judge Muhammad for making the brainwashing machine called islam but what may seem as a generalization on the people who follow that faith, is more of a comment on what that faith demands of them and how these demands force on those who come to the west a choice between compliance with their faith and casting off part of their faith for integration into a society that rejects most of what their faith asks/permits. 

 

ISIS acts exactly like Muhammad did, 1300 years ago. Which makes Muhammad a both progressive and pragmatic leader of his time.

 

ISIS is not in any way progressive or pragmatic? They are an aberration of the Islamic scripture, they are utterly brutal and anachronistic. Their interpretation of Islam has no place in the year 2017 and the only way to address these concerns is to annihilate them. The good news about most ISIS fighters is there belief in martyrdom means they generally fight to the death which means its much easier to address the ISIS residual impact from countries where they are active in 

 

I must be  misunderstanding you about saying "ISIS is progressive  group" 

[injurai]

I thought he was exactly pointing out how it's a progressive movement only relative to it's time, hence inherently anachronistic. But because it's tied to the will of the creator, it's interpreted as an ever enduring progressive movement by it's believers.

[BruceVC]

I thought he was exactly pointing out how it's a progressive movement only relative to it's time, hence inherently anachronistic. But because it's tied to the will of the creator, it's interpreted as an ever enduring progressive movement by it's believers.

Okay I see what you mean, you could be right

 

Except the ideology of ISIS is clear on certain things and what they believe. They dont consider themselves progressive in any way, they see themselves as a group who is actually following the Koran in its true, literal definition

 

But the reality is they are selective about they believe about the Koran. All their atrocities they commit they justify in this way

 

But the core belief of ISIS is strict adherence to there religious view of Islam...the idea of a progressive objective is irrelevant to them

[teknoman2]

 

 

 

 

as i said: i don't judge people,

 

Uh huh.

 

well, i judge Muhammad for making the brainwashing machine called islam but what may seem as a generalization on the people who follow that faith, is more of a comment on what that faith demands of them and how these demands force on those who come to the west a choice between compliance with their faith and casting off part of their faith for integration into a society that rejects most of what their faith asks/permits. 

 

ISIS acts exactly like Muhammad did, 1300 years ago. Which makes Muhammad a both progressive and pragmatic leader of his time.

 

ISIS is not in any way progressive or pragmatic? They are an aberration of the Islamic scripture, they are utterly brutal and anachronistic. Their interpretation of Islam has no place in the year 2017 and the only way to address these concerns is to annihilate them. The good news about most ISIS fighters is there belief in martyrdom means they generally fight to the death which means its much easier to address the ISIS residual impact from countries where they are active in 

 

I must be  misunderstanding you about saying "ISIS is progressive  group" 

 

ISIS does not interpret anything, it follows the quran word for word as it was meant to be followed when written in the 7th century.

others may use interpretations to diminish the anachronisms of islam, ISIS just rolls with the vanilla version.

this form of extremism will just keep happening until somebody scraps the old version and makes a remake and convinces people that the remake is to be followed as the original.

Edited August 27, 2017 by teknoman2

[teknoman2]

 

 

 

 

 

as i said: i don't judge people,

Uh huh.

well, i judge Muhammad for making the brainwashing machine called islam but what may seem as a generalization on the people who follow that faith, is more of a comment on what that faith demands of them and how these demands force on those who come to the west a choice between compliance with their faith and casting off part of their faith for integration into a society that rejects most of what their faith asks/permits.

ISIS acts exactly like Muhammad did, 1300 years ago. Which makes Muhammad a both progressive and pragmatic leader of his time.

ISIS is not in any way progressive or pragmatic? They are an aberration of the Islamic scripture, they are utterly brutal and anachronistic. Their interpretation of Islam has no place in the year 2017 and the only way to address these concerns is to annihilate them. The good news about most ISIS fighters is there belief in martyrdom means they generally fight to the death which means its much easier to address the ISIS residual impact from countries where they are active in

 

I must be misunderstanding you about saying "ISIS is progressive group"

"Which makes Muhammad a [progressive] leader OF HIS TIME"

 

His time was 1300 years ago though.

 

in a certain way though, he was progressive!

other religions used only the most primal means of control and manipulation of the faithful: fear of god. but fear works only as long as ignorance is the norm.

Muhammad used a pretty well thought out array of psychological tricks that messed with the minds of the followers in much deeper level than simple fear. he absolved faithful of all responsibility for any action they committed as long as it was against infidels and freedom without responsibility breeds evil as demonstrated by modern psychologists. he used tricks similar to what Hittler later used to weed out dissidents. he used mass psychology of the kind that governments and corporations use today to turn what was considered morally and/or legally reprehensible to the new, universally accepted normality; and more. under that point of view, he was many centuries ahead of his time

[Hurlshort]

Teknoman, are you a student of Islamic studies? You just seems to have a lot of information on the subject and seem pretty confident about its accuracy. I would certainly not consider myself an expert in this stuff.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Have you read the Koran?

[Hurlshort]

Have you read the Koran?

 

Was that for Teknoman? I haven't. I have an English copy and I've read some parts of it, but it's pretty thick. Of course, I wouldn't claim to have read the bible, either. I grew up reading passages out of it and have probably covered all of the NT at some point or another, but I've never really sat down and studied it from page to page as an adult. I've read a fair share of religious history books, but I'd never call myself an expert on theology. A hobbyist at best.

 

That's why I was curious about Teknoman's education on the matter. 

[Wrath of Dagon]

 

Have you read the Koran?

 

Was that for Teknoman? I haven't. I have an English copy and I've read some parts of it, but it's pretty thick. Of course, I wouldn't claim to have read the bible, either. I grew up reading passages out of it and have probably covered all of the NT at some point or another, but I've never really sat down and studied it from page to page as an adult. I've read a fair share of religious history books, but I'd never call myself an expert on theology. A hobbyist at best.

 

That's why I was curious about Teknoman's education on the matter.

 

No, that was for you. I thought you teach comparative religions or something like that, so I thought you might have read it.

[Chilloutman]

noone died, again, no side stories, nothing

[Hurlshort]

We really just cover the basics of religions in 7th grade, and it is focused more on history and regular practices than any in depth analysis. At the end of the day, my expertise is education, not religious studies.

[teknoman2]

Teknoman, are you a student of Islamic studies? You just seems to have a lot of information on the subject and seem pretty confident about its accuracy. I would certainly not consider myself an expert in this stuff.

as i said, my grandfather lived for years in the middle east when he was young and he read it because it was necessary for living without getting into trouble due to ignorance. he still has a copy written in arabic and most of what i know is from my discussions with him on the subject. 

some of what i say is what my grandfather said to me about islam and some are educated guesses based on what i know.

fact 1: islam teaches that there is no free will, allah decides everything so your actions are by his will (the description of it is more extensive and detailed with exceptions and examples but that's the general rule)

fact 2: studies show that taking any action without feeling the pressure of having to take responsibility for it, removes most if not all inhibitions.

deduction: Muhammad had an understanding of human psychology and how to use it to manipulate the minds of his followers.

[injurai]

 

 

Teknoman, are you a student of Islamic studies? You just seems to have a lot of information on the subject and seem pretty confident about its accuracy. I would certainly not consider myself an expert in this stuff.

as i said, my grandfather lived for years in the middle east when he was young and he read it because it was necessary for living without getting into trouble due to ignorance. he still has a copy written in arabic and most of what i know is from my discussions with him on the subject.

some of what i say is what my grandfather said to me about islam and some are educated guesses based on what i know.

fact 1: islam teaches that there is no free will, allah decides everything so your actions are by his will (the description of it is more extensive and detailed with exceptions and examples but that's the general rule)

fact 2: studies show that taking any action without feeling the pressure of having to take responsibility for it, removes most if not all inhibitions.

deduction: Muhammad had an understanding of human psychology and how to use it to manipulate the minds of his followers.

The Quran wasn't written by Muhammad though.

 

 

It was written by Allah if you go by the Quran. It was lived and spoken(written) by Muhammad and scribed by his followers if you go by history. Initially the accounts were committed to memory through the oral traditions of the region. After Muhammad's death the Quran was compiled fully in written form by his followers and peer reviewed by the umma. They didn't have paper, so the Quran was first scribed on bone, stone, wood, and hide. Eventually contact with China introduced paper. The hadith additionally contain an isnad which is a lineage of transmission through reputable scholars for means of authentication.

[Hurlshort]

 

Teknoman, are you a student of Islamic studies? You just seems to have a lot of information on the subject and seem pretty confident about its accuracy. I would certainly not consider myself an expert in this stuff.

as i said, my grandfather lived for years in the middle east when he was young and he read it because it was necessary for living without getting into trouble due to ignorance. he still has a copy written in arabic and most of what i know is from my discussions with him on the subject. 

some of what i say is what my grandfather said to me about islam and some are educated guesses based on what i know.

fact 1: islam teaches that there is no free will, allah decides everything so your actions are by his will (the description of it is more extensive and detailed with exceptions and examples but that's the general rule)

fact 2: studies show that taking any action without feeling the pressure of having to take responsibility for it, removes most if not all inhibitions.

deduction: Muhammad had an understanding of human psychology and how to use it to manipulate the minds of his followers.

 

 

Thank you for sharing where your perspective comes from.

 

I'd challenge your facts. They are really more interpretations and opinions.

[teknoman2]

 

 

Teknoman, are you a student of Islamic studies? You just seems to have a lot of information on the subject and seem pretty confident about its accuracy. I would certainly not consider myself an expert in this stuff.

as i said, my grandfather lived for years in the middle east when he was young and he read it because it was necessary for living without getting into trouble due to ignorance. he still has a copy written in arabic and most of what i know is from my discussions with him on the subject. 

some of what i say is what my grandfather said to me about islam and some are educated guesses based on what i know.

fact 1: islam teaches that there is no free will, allah decides everything so your actions are by his will (the description of it is more extensive and detailed with exceptions and examples but that's the general rule)

fact 2: studies show that taking any action without feeling the pressure of having to take responsibility for it, removes most if not all inhibitions.

deduction: Muhammad had an understanding of human psychology and how to use it to manipulate the minds of his followers.

 

 

Thank you for sharing where your perspective comes from.

 

I'd challenge your facts. They are really more interpretations and opinions.

 

based on what my grandfather said, what we usually see is the public face of islamic culture, designed to look peaceful and inviting and is the face adopted by diplomats and people in tourist rich areas. the moment you step out of the tourist zones, you see a very different behavior by the people and the other face of their culture - the one underneath the mask.

[Hurlshort]

based on what my grandfather said, what we usually see is the public face of islamic culture, designed to look peaceful and inviting and is the face adopted by diplomats and people in tourist rich areas. the moment you step out of the tourist zones, you see a very different behavior by the people and the other face of their culture - the one underneath the mask.

 

 

 

Sadly I'd say that is not unique to Islam, but is rather common in many positions of power. 

[teknoman2]

 

based on what my grandfather said, what we usually see is the public face of islamic culture, designed to look peaceful and inviting and is the face adopted by diplomats and people in tourist rich areas. the moment you step out of the tourist zones, you see a very different behavior by the people and the other face of their culture - the one underneath the mask.

 

 

 

Sadly I'd say that is not unique to Islam, but is rather common in many positions of power. 

 

it's not about people in positions of power, it's the shop owners, the restaurant owners, taxi drivers and pretty much everyone who lives and works in a place full of tourists. they are all polite, educated, friendly and such, but the moment you step out of the area of touristic  interest, you see that everyone is polite and friendly to each other but totally hostile to the outsider and as for education, most don't know much of anything besides reading and writing with mannerisms that look like those of someone who never lived in a civilized environment before.

at least this is what he saw back in the 50s when he lived there and some who have been there more recently claim that they had the same experience as soon as they left the tourist friendly zone.

[smjjames]

 

 

based on what my grandfather said, what we usually see is the public face of islamic culture, designed to look peaceful and inviting and is the face adopted by diplomats and people in tourist rich areas. the moment you step out of the tourist zones, you see a very different behavior by the people and the other face of their culture - the one underneath the mask.

 

 

 

Sadly I'd say that is not unique to Islam, but is rather common in many positions of power. 

 

it's not about people in positions of power, it's the shop owners, the restaurant owners, taxi drivers and pretty much everyone who lives and works in a place full of tourists. they are all polite, educated, friendly and such, but the moment you step out of the area of touristic  interest, you see that everyone is polite and friendly to each other but totally hostile to the outsider and as for education, most don't know much of anything besides reading and writing with mannerisms that look like those of someone who never lived in a civilized environment before.

at least this is what he saw back in the 50s when he lived there and some who have been there more recently claim that they had the same experience as soon as they left the tourist friendly zone.

 

 

Isn't that true of a whole lot of tourist friendly zones? Rio de Janeiro would be a good example, it's not exclusive to muslim countries.

[Zoraptor]

In France they don't even bother being polite to tourists most of the time, unless you can speak french pretty well.

 

Realistically wherever you are you're treated a lot better if (1) they want money from you andor (2) you speak their language.

[injurai]

It's also true of the entire service industry of America.

 

I mean...

 

We have the best waiters. Smiles every time! They love their lives and more importantly they love you!

[213374U]

Ha. Muslims aren't nice outside of "tourist-friendly" zones?

 

Well, here you don't even have to step outside of touristic areas to find locals openly rioting against tourists

 

Guess it must be the legacy of Al-Andalus or something.

Edited August 30, 2017 by 213374U