I never finished Pillars of Eternity.

[MortyTheGobbo]

Guys, debating the lore is pointless. Whether or not the lore on Might is solid isn't the problem here.

 

With Might it all comes down to a very simple thing. You can't create a mentally powerful character without also making them physically strong. That's the issue. They eliminated the physically fragile but powerful spellcaster archetype completely. And the mentally lacking brute.

 

It's a design decision. And a bad one because it creates such controversy and is debated endlessly.

 

They might as well combine Dexterity and Intelligence and call it Prowess. Mental and physical skill conveniently as one. But that would be just as bad.

 

The whole purpose of the ability scores is to reflect the character the player has envisioned. Therefore, the stats can only represent one thing at a time to give the player complete control over their character.

 

The difference is that both Intelligence and Dexterity are widely applicable to every character concept, while still working as they usually do. Traditional Strength is the perfect dump stat for anyone who doesn't fight in close combat. Making damage dependent on a different attribute depending on what weapon or ability you use would upend the balance of what Pillars tries to do with attributes, as well.

[Katarack21]

 

And the mentally lacking brute.

High might, low Intelligence. Boom. Mentally lacking brute accomplished. While we're at it, high Might, low Endurance--boom, physically fragile but powerful spellcaster.

 

You're loowking for "phsysically weak spellcaster", not "physically fragile". Different meanings entirely. And tell me, why must a spellcaster *always* be physically weak? Why must you *NEVER* have a spellcaster who can pick up a hundred pounds?

 

What does physical strength, seperate from melee combat capability, add or subtract from a spellcaster in your mind?

 

Basically: How is this a problem, apart from the fact that it doesn't actually match the lore as far as Might not being *ONLY BOTH* in the lore?

Edited April 16, 2017 by Katarack21

[rjshae]

With Might it all comes down to a very simple thing. You can't create a mentally powerful character without also making them physically strong. That's the issue. They eliminated the physically fragile but powerful spellcaster archetype completely. And the mentally lacking brute.

 

This isn't true. Compared to D&D, they've actually expanded the range of possible Wizards. You can now have a stupid brute who can cast targeted damage-causing arcane spells in a powerful manner. This just isn't possible with a game system where arcane magic is entirely dependent on Int. You can still play a physically weak but mentally powerful Wizard by focusing on AoE spells and non-damage spells. In many battles, a larger area will more than make up for a diminished damage rate.

[1varangian]

Having to pump two stats instead of one for spellcasting actually limits your choices with the remaining stats. It's the opposite of "expanding". A good wizard needs both stats in Pillars.

 

Good that you brought up D&D. The DnD stats not only do an excellent job in describing or creating an image for your character but also impact combat in a more meaningful way. In NWN you can choose to not pump your Wizard's Int from 17 to 18, and buff your Str from 10 to 14 instead. You make a meaningful choice losing some potential of your primary talents but gaining a significant increase in melee. The strength increase in Pillar's terms is +10 accuracy and +3 dmg with a staff so it actually matters - it even enables the melee option while in Pillars everyone does everything anyway. Now that's what "expanding" your build options is about. The Pillars system lacks meaningful choices.

 

Assigning stats in Pillars feels more like micro managing a generic character of a class who performs more or less the same regardless of how you choose your stats.

Edited April 17, 2017 by 1varangian

[MortyTheGobbo]

A D&D wizard who puts 14 into strength is going to be every bit as hopeless in melee combat as the one who put 10 there. A +2 bonus to hit and damage doesn't negate a d4 hit dice, no armor and not being proficient with anything better than a blunt stick. Unless they use spells to render themselves into melee powerhouses, at which point their strength scores cease to matter. D&D attributes are an illusion of choice more often than not.

Edited April 17, 2017 by MortyTheGobbo

[rjshae]

Having to pump two stats instead of one for spellcasting actually limits your choices with the remaining stats. It's the opposite of "expanding". A good wizard needs both stats in Pillars.

 

No, pumping up both stats creates a versatile Wizard, just like pumping up Cha and Dex creates a versatile Rogue in D&D. You don't need a high Mig to cast deleterious alacrity of motion, expose vulnerabilities, confusion, dimensional shift, slicken, curse of blackened sight, bewildering spectacle, merciless gaze, &c.

Edited April 17, 2017 by rjshae

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Yeah, in NWN a +2 in Hit and Damage doesn't mean much for a low ac character with 2 attacks per round and the loss of spell slots and spell DC is damning. Anything outside of pumping Intelligence as much as you can is a waste for a NWN wizard because spells will be superior than melee 99% of the time. And let's not even get into how you couldn't pick up a sword or put on armor without spending a once every 3 level resource.

 

Comparatively in PoE my Wizard's spell casting improves with every stat besides Constitution. Might increases damage, Dexterity increases casting speed, Intellect increases AoE and Duration, Perception increases interrupt and accuracy, and Resolve improves concentration. Resolve is dumpable because concentration wasn't implemented very well, but otherwise every stat improves my Wizard's survivability and/or spellcasting prowess. If you want to argue that PoE stats are small in factor that's fair, but they allow more choice in theory than D&D's pump your main stat or suck.

[injurai]

I keep seeing this thread expecting the title to be changed to "I JUST finished Pillars of Eternity"

 

...

 

One of these days he'll make it.

[1varangian]

A D&D wizard who puts 14 into strength is going to be every bit as hopeless in melee combat as the one who put 10 there. A +2 bonus to hit and damage doesn't negate a d4 hit dice, no armor and not being proficient with anything better than a blunt stick. Unless they use spells to render themselves into melee powerhouses, at which point their strength scores cease to matter. D&D attributes are an illusion of choice more often than not.

14 strength means you can cast Shield and fight goblins or other minions effectively in melee as opposed to being completely useless without spells. And a Bull's Strength stacks on top of that 14 so it does not "cease to matter". In Pillars your character plays exactly the same and you hardly notice any difference from stats unless you heavily min-max your character.

 

I like the point buy system in NWN. Take the Wizard for example. You can pump Int to 18 and maximise your spellcasting power but be weak elsewhere. Or you can have 15-16 Int and 14 Str/Dex/Con which does give you a completely different melee presence. Point is that you can actually influence how your character plays which gives you choice. In Pillars that choice is so subtle it hardly matters.

Edited April 17, 2017 by 1varangian

[Fenixp]

Having to pump two stats instead of one for spellcasting actually limits your choices with the remaining stats. It's the opposite of "expanding". A good wizard needs both stats in Pillars

All 3 you mean. Spells depend on Might, Intellect and Perception. Which incidentally completely negates the point about not being about to create a powerful mage with low might, because you absolutely can - the most powerful spells in the game don't use might at all.

[1varangian]

Yeah, in NWN a +2 in Hit and Damage doesn't mean much for a low ac character with 2 attacks per round and the loss of spell slots and spell DC is damning. Anything outside of pumping Intelligence as much as you can is a waste for a NWN wizard because spells will be superior than melee 99% of the time. And let's not even get into how you couldn't pick up a sword or put on armor without spending a once every 3 level resource.

 

Comparatively in PoE my Wizard's spell casting improves with every stat besides Constitution. Might increases damage, Dexterity increases casting speed, Intellect increases AoE and Duration, Perception increases interrupt and accuracy, and Resolve improves concentration. Resolve is dumpable because concentration wasn't implemented very well, but otherwise every stat improves my Wizard's survivability and/or spellcasting prowess. If you want to argue that PoE stats are small in factor that's fair, but they allow more choice in theory than D&D's pump your main stat or suck.

Something between PoE and DnD would be optimal probably.

 

In PoE I don't think I've ever even looked at the companions attribute scores. That's how irrelevant they feel. I don't need to know them. So why do they even exist in the game if they don't have a big enough impact? Much more important is to have the right type of weapon/damage available to get through DR.

[Fenixp]

In PoE I don't think I've ever even looked at the companions attribute scores. That's how irrelevant they feel. I don't need to know them. So why do they even exist in the game if they don't have a big enough impact? Much more important is to have the right type of weapon/damage available to get through DR.

To be fair, in PoE, companions were designed for player to not ever have to look at their stats - Obsidian has purposefully created the most flexible characters imaginable while keeping their storyline in mind. If you got a character min-maxed for a specific role as a companion, not looking at his stats would be rather ... Disastrous.

[1varangian]

There you said it. Min-maxing is needed for the stats to change the way a character plays. Dumping stats to 3 isn't cool from a roleplaying perspective.

[Fenixp]

Woah, that's a nice straw man you built there! Shame if something happened to it.

 

Let me put it this way: When two fighters of the same level with the same equipment and skillset fight, the one with higher might, resolve and constitution is going to be statistically more likely to win, even if the difference isn't that big. That's all I need from roleplaying perspective as that's kinda how it works in life too, unless the difference in their attributes is too great (like a min-maxed vs weak character)

[1varangian]

The min/maxed one that dumped Intelligence to 3 would be more likely to win.

[Fenixp]

Kinda like in DnD you mean? Of course min-maxed builds are going to be the most efficient ones in any system under the sun, I'm not entirely sure what point are you trying to make here. In fact it's better in Pillars as all attributes are more or less important for all classes. And attributes in Pillars of Eternity matter. Unless the gap between them is big, what matters more is skill and experience. Like it should be.

Edited April 17, 2017 by Fenixp

[Katarack21]

 

A D&D wizard who puts 14 into strength is going to be every bit as hopeless in melee combat as the one who put 10 there. A +2 bonus to hit and damage doesn't negate a d4 hit dice, no armor and not being proficient with anything better than a blunt stick. Unless they use spells to render themselves into melee powerhouses, at which point their strength scores cease to matter. D&D attributes are an illusion of choice more often than not.

14 strength means you can cast Shield and fight goblins or other minions effectively in melee as opposed to being completely useless without spells. And a Bull's Strength stacks on top of that 14 so it does not "cease to matter".

Yes, if you pre-buff yourself with spells you can melee with the best of them in D&D. Your point is....?

Edited April 17, 2017 by Katarack21

[MortyTheGobbo]

 

A D&D wizard who puts 14 into strength is going to be every bit as hopeless in melee combat as the one who put 10 there. A +2 bonus to hit and damage doesn't negate a d4 hit dice, no armor and not being proficient with anything better than a blunt stick. Unless they use spells to render themselves into melee powerhouses, at which point their strength scores cease to matter. D&D attributes are an illusion of choice more often than not.

14 strength means you can cast Shield and fight goblins or other minions effectively in melee as opposed to being completely useless without spells. And a Bull's Strength stacks on top of that 14 so it does not "cease to matter". In Pillars your character plays exactly the same and you hardly notice any difference from stats unless you heavily min-max your character.

 

I like the point buy system in NWN. Take the Wizard for example. You can pump Int to 18 and maximise your spellcasting power but be weak elsewhere. Or you can have 15-16 Int and 14 Str/Dex/Con which does give you a completely different melee presence. Point is that you can actually influence how your character plays which gives you choice. In Pillars that choice is so subtle it hardly matters.

 

 

...and then you stop fighting goblins, and those points you put in Strength aren't going to cut it. The Bull's Strength you cast on yourself is a Bull's Strength you didn't cast on someone whose actual job it is to fight in melee. Or a Glitterdust you didn't use to shut down several enemy combatants. Again - d4 hit dice, no armour, no weapon proficiencies, 1/2 BAB. Some strength isn't going to matter. Sacrificing intelligence for anything is a strictly worse choice for a D&D wizard.

 

It's one thing to be dissatisfied with attributes in PoE, but propping up D&D's as some sort of example to strive for is naive. D&D classes range from those who can pump one attribute and ignore the rest (wizards, druids) to those that need at least four (monks, paladins). But there's always going to be one stat you need to get as high as you can, to keep up with the game's math - intelligence/wisdom/charisma for a spellcaster, strength or dexterity for a weapon-user.

 

Also, Pillars has attributes matter in conversation and scripted interactions more than any D&D-based RPG that's not Torment.

Edited April 17, 2017 by MortyTheGobbo

[1varangian]

Pillars is more complicated and does a lot of micromanagement with the stats, yes. Yet the DnD stats feel more solid and meaningful and flesh out your character better. E.g. in Pillars you can pump your Might to 18 but you don't really notice a difference between 10 Might and 18 Might so it doesn't give the player a feeling of a particularily strong character. It's the same character who simply does 24% more damage. Once you get better equipment and some talents that 24% is diluted into oblivion. In DnD the difference between 10 Strength and 18 Strength is very noticeable. The 10 Strength feels very average Joe while the 18 Strength feels like a juggernaut.

 

It's important in an RPG that buffing some attribute to high levels or extremes gives the player a feeling of being exceptional at something.

 

I believe the original debate was about Might and combining physical and mental strength into one attribute.

Edited April 17, 2017 by 1varangian

[Fenixp]

The 10 Strength feels very average Joe while the 18 Strength feels like a juggernaut.

That comes from Pillars of Eternity being a lot more grounded setting in which a man quite simply can not become a juggernaught by the means of working out and where training and experience > inherent physical and psychological attributes, usually. I'm hard-pressed to see anything inherently wrong with that.

 

I believe the original debate was about Might and combining physical and mental strength into one attribute.

Yes, and the only oft repeated example of why is that a bad idea was that you can't create a physically weak mage, which is factually incorrect even if you do interpret spiritual strength being directly dependent on physical strength (in other words, mages do not need Might to be effective.)

[1varangian]

You'll just have to agree to disagree then.

[rjshae]

Pillars is more complicated and does a lot of micromanagement with the stats, yes. Yet the DnD stats feel more solid and meaningful and flesh out your character better. E.g. in Pillars you can pump your Might to 18 but you don't really notice a difference between 10 Might and 18 Might so it doesn't give the player a feeling of a particularily strong character. It's the same character who simply does 24% more damage. Once you get better equipment and some talents that 24% is diluted into oblivion. In DnD the difference between 10 Strength and 18 Strength is very noticeable. The 10 Strength feels very average Joe while the 18 Strength feels like a juggernaut.

 

 

When you say "you", presumably you mean 'you' rather than 'us'. I usually don't track the battle logs in cRPGs in enough detail to notice what difference the attributes make, but the differences are still there in terms of the raw data. You would normally notice the stats in D&D because of the skill modifiers. In PoE, you notice the attributes during the scripted interactions.

Edited April 17, 2017 by rjshae

[Fenixp]

You'll just have to agree to disagree then.

I actually do, yes. Thank you for discussing in a respectful manner.

[PizzaSHARK]

Yeah, in NWN a +2 in Hit and Damage doesn't mean much for a low ac character with 2 attacks per round and the loss of spell slots and spell DC is damning. Anything outside of pumping Intelligence as much as you can is a waste for a NWN wizard because spells will be superior than melee 99% of the time. And let's not even get into how you couldn't pick up a sword or put on armor without spending a once every 3 level resource.

 

Comparatively in PoE my Wizard's spell casting improves with every stat besides Constitution. Might increases damage, Dexterity increases casting speed, Intellect increases AoE and Duration, Perception increases interrupt and accuracy, and Resolve improves concentration. Resolve is dumpable because concentration wasn't implemented very well, but otherwise every stat improves my Wizard's survivability and/or spellcasting prowess. If you want to argue that PoE stats are small in factor that's fair, but they allow more choice in theory than D&D's pump your main stat or suck.

 

This is an illusion, though.

Wizards pump INT here just as they do in D&D.  Look at the build lists and look at how many Wizard builds involve maxed or at least strong INT scores.  Look at how many Fighter builds involve maxed or at least strong MIG scores.

 

if anything, Pillars' system has a severe balance issue in that there are two god stats (INT and MIG), and two (nearly) worthless stats (RES and CON.)  And two stats you maybe put points into if you haven't maxed out your MIG or INT yet.  Of course, a character with 10 in every stat will perform fairly well even in comparison to someone with 18 in every stat, by design, but this doesn't mean that Pillars doesn't have problems at least as severe's as D&D's, Pathfinder's, etc.

 

The only difference is that stats are more meaningful in d20 systems.  Yes, every class has at least one attribute they're dependent on, but so what?  How is that any different from Pillars, where Might and Intelligence basically fill the same holes?

[rjshae]

 

Yeah, in NWN a +2 in Hit and Damage doesn't mean much for a low ac character with 2 attacks per round and the loss of spell slots and spell DC is damning. Anything outside of pumping Intelligence as much as you can is a waste for a NWN wizard because spells will be superior than melee 99% of the time. And let's not even get into how you couldn't pick up a sword or put on armor without spending a once every 3 level resource.

 

Comparatively in PoE my Wizard's spell casting improves with every stat besides Constitution. Might increases damage, Dexterity increases casting speed, Intellect increases AoE and Duration, Perception increases interrupt and accuracy, and Resolve improves concentration. Resolve is dumpable because concentration wasn't implemented very well, but otherwise every stat improves my Wizard's survivability and/or spellcasting prowess. If you want to argue that PoE stats are small in factor that's fair, but they allow more choice in theory than D&D's pump your main stat or suck.

 

This is an illusion, though.

Wizards pump INT here just as they do in D&D.  Look at the build lists and look at how many Wizard builds involve maxed or at least strong INT scores.  Look at how many Fighter builds involve maxed or at least strong MIG scores.

 

No, that does not demonstrate it's an illusion. The attribute design was intended to make multiple possible builds be viable. The fact that many player's Wizard builds involve high Int does not disprove that. It only shows that a high Int Wizard is what many players conceive of as a "strong" Wizard character. What would demonstrate it is an illusion is several playthroughs using a low Int (but otherwise well-designed) Wizard, which all show it is a piss-poor non-viable character.