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POE1 has a serious lack of defense for finesse types


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I know it is a tough balance, like in Tyranny there's  talents that lets all your non magical defense be switched to one stat, that's so damn op, but there are no really good defenses based off light armour/finesse in PoE.

 

Maybe some kind of proficiency that uses light armour and Dex so we can have front line finesse types in PoE2... please and ty kindly.

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Well armour doesn't directly impact on your defences in PoE, only your damage reduction, and I think a talent that raises damage reduction for light armours would be odd. As for deflection, lightly armoured characters have the same options as heavily armoured ones, unless you're avoiding shields as well.

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I think what QuiteGoneJin means is that there's nothing like "Dodging" where you don't use shield or weapon to parry, but using your speed, perception and agility to dodge and evade melee attacks instead. So, if you would want to carry the Tyranny stuff over to PoE2 you would have to invent a talent or ability that lets you use reflex instead of deflection against melee attacks. As QuiteGoneJin said, this would be a bit OP. Once you create such mechanics where you can dump one defense completely players will abuse this to create OP-builds - which is understandable.

 

I personally found the mechanic of tyranny quite interesting where you could either increase your defensive conversions (crit to hit, hit to graze, graze to miss) with certain talents and also with certain "light" items while heavy stuff gave you more damage reduction but no conversion and could be boosted with other talents (making you less slow like Armored Grace does).

 

I could also imagine a talent like "dodging" or "evasion" for nimble builds that'll give you an evasion bonus for all defenses, based on the type or armor. So basically wearing clothes would give you the full bonus while heavy armor would give you zero.

 

We have the rogue ability that raises the chance to avoid attacks which target reflex. But only AoE attacks target refles in PoE, so it's not too useful. Something like that but for deflection would be nice.

Edited by Boeroer
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I could also imagine a talent like "dodging" or "evasion" for nimble builds that'll give you an evasion bonus for all defenses, based on the type or armor. So basically wearing clothes would give you the full bonus while heavy armor would give you zero.

 

That could work, but I'd argue against it increasing all defences. Fortitude seems to be your body's ability to shrug off effects once they hit it and Will seems to be the mental equivalent. I'd limit such a talent to just Deflection and Reflex.

 

By the way, I should note that I am not against such an idea.

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There's just too much grace in Tyranny and none in PoE. Lol. In Tyranny one handed light armer dodgers and parriers with illusion spells can avoid 99% of combat, in Pillars we hide behind heavy armor and shields and gads of defensive damage soak spells. A way to use finesse to raise our saving throws would be nice. Like a breakfall where you spin with a hit or something. 

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Ye you just dont want character to be able to stack dodging to 100% through talents and gear. As long as it doesn't go that far then it would be interesting and would make single weapon builds even more interesting. I would not want it to apply to shielded builds or two handers. At least if it could be gimped for those types greatly if not all the way. 

 

I remember in morrowind and oblivion you could create chameleon suit and nothing could see you it was ridiculous. As long as you dont make that possible then it adds interesting builds

Edited by draego
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Sorry, but the system of tyranny is completely unbalanced.

Please read this anylysis from MaxQuest ( I assume it is the same MaxQuest as in the obsidian forums): https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/feedback-on-game-mechanics.996876/

I have one more complain:

- In tyranny physical defense ( dodge/parry) went up via training, up to a point that enemies could not hit you at all. Magical defense did not go up through use so they were very low and enemy attacks against them almost always succeeded.

 

This means:

- no talents where one defense replaces another (In tyranny everyone uses the talents where only one of dodge/parry is used for both

- Keep the attributes fom PoE (in tyranny finesse is too powerful because it gives deflection and accurancy)

- Talents or equipment that changes the hit type ( e.g. crit -> hit ) should be relatively rare. Otherwise you will never get crit while you crit all the time. And they should only affect one change ( like cit -> hit only). In tyranny deflection was way OP because it did all (crit -> hit, hit -> graze and graze -> miss). This is both for defensive and offensive talents.

 

PoE has a good system with good balance. In tyranny the stat and combat system became much worse and balance went to hell.

 

I liked playing tyranny and some things were better than PoE

- The main story and the fact that you had several ways to go through the game. The pacing of the story was better.

- I liked that there were more variation among weapons. Tyranny had e.g. different 2h weapons with different damage, speed and armor penetration. ( Although this was one of many reasons why the game was so unbalanced. )

 

summary: please keep the system from PoE for PoE2, with a few changes to make it more consistent and tranparent (see other thread)

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I wouldnt mind an "evasion" mechanic of some sort to make light armor melee a thing. you could balance it out by making evasion based defenses null if dazed or confused or any effect that would prevent you from evading attacks where as traditional armor provides protection no matter what.

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That's one of my biggest gripes with PoE, and one I've been trying to ask about in the streams (and was ignored of course -_-).

 

My favourite fantasy archetypes are monks and swordmasters / kensai, skilled fighters whose main focus is evading and landing skillfull blows, and it was very enjoyable to play through BG2 and the NWN games with both of these classes/concepts.

 

Such an inclusion should neither overthrow the systems that are in place completely, nor need they be available to every class, but one or two subclasses with evasion as their focus would be very much appreciated. A simple bonus to DR based on deflection whenever you don't wear (heavy) armor would already do the trick. If an automatically scaling weapon in the form of unarmed monk attacks doesn't break the game, neither should a subclass with an automatic DR progression.

 

While it is possible to play through PoE with a robes-only martial party on PotD, it didn't feel very fun or thematic because they still end up as glass canons to varying degrees. They don't need to become tanks in PoE2, but holding their line when properly skilled should definitely be possible if the player focuses on this.

Edited by Doppelschwert
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I would say Zahua, Maneha, and any other non-tank melee characters are difficult to keep alive or keep their health from deteriorating rapidly without tremendous micromanagement, even in many trash mob battles.

 

Or maybe I am totally wrong, but it is difficult enough that I only kept them in party for a few battles, then benched them forever.

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It sucked that there was no upside to wearing light/some medium armor. Not to say you couldnt do it and be fine.. It was just a style choice that disadvantaged you a little at that point. It was always better to go heavy on melee and as light as possible on ranged. If they decide to keep it mostly the same setup I at least hope they provide talents or proficiencies for light, medium, and heavy armor to make so light armored melee doesnt always have to be a glass cannon.

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Sorry, but the system of tyranny is completely unbalanced.

Please read this anylysis from MaxQuest ( I assume it is the same MaxQuest as in the obsidian forums): https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/feedback-on-game-mechanics.996876/

I have one more complain:

- In tyranny physical defense ( dodge/parry) went up via training, up to a point that enemies could not hit you at all. Magical defense did not go up through use so they were very low and enemy attacks against them almost always succeeded.

 

This means:

- no talents where one defense replaces another (In tyranny everyone uses the talents where only one of dodge/parry is used for both

- Keep the attributes fom PoE (in tyranny finesse is too powerful because it gives deflection and accurancy)

- Talents or equipment that changes the hit type ( e.g. crit -> hit ) should be relatively rare. Otherwise you will never get crit while you crit all the time. And they should only affect one change ( like cit -> hit only). In tyranny deflection was way OP because it did all (crit -> hit, hit -> graze and graze -> miss). This is both for defensive and offensive talents.

 

PoE has a good system with good balance. In tyranny the stat and combat system became much worse and balance went to hell.

 

I liked playing tyranny and some things were better than PoE

- The main story and the fact that you had several ways to go through the game. The pacing of the story was better.

- I liked that there were more variation among weapons. Tyranny had e.g. different 2h weapons with different damage, speed and armor penetration. ( Although this was one of many reasons why the game was so unbalanced. )

 

summary: please keep the system from PoE for PoE2, with a few changes to make it more consistent and tranparent (see other thread)

I agree with you, but tbh it doesn't seem like you read what I wrote, or possibly understand what I am getting at. 

 

Another option would be a more active take on parrying / dodging; possibly a per encounter ability that for a short time heightens your defense; dodge, parry, or even a riposte ability would work well this way.

 

Finesse types favor active abilities and PoE1 is seriously lacking those.

 

Just spit-balling and I think you missed my mark.... but we could really use frontliners that aren't veritable iron clad shielded tank-beefcakes and or brimming with magical defenses.

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It sucked that there was no upside to wearing light/some medium armor. Not to say you couldnt do it and be fine.. It was just a style choice that disadvantaged you a little at that point. It was always better to go heavy on melee and as light as possible on ranged. If they decide to keep it mostly the same setup I at least hope they provide talents or proficiencies for light, medium, and heavy armor to make so light armored melee doesnt always have to be a glass cannon.

A rogue talent, for every successful time you hit an enemy without getting hit you gain something, possibly attack speed? Evasion? A active parry ability that completely negates the enemies next physical attack? God I wish I could work in game balance/design. 

Edited by QuiteGoneJin
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I don't mind if the finesse/dex fighter stays squishier than his tin can counterpart. Actually, I wish it stays that way : I don't want to have a high speed/high crit/high evade character that makes tanks look useless.

 

Spending talents is ok though since it comes at the opportunity cost of not taking something else (e.g : Sexy Macarena : gives you +10 to deviation when not wearing shield, heavy armor or 2H weapons)

 

Also, shieldless 1 handed style could use some specific talents. A modal talent giving you a significant deviation and precision buff in this style only would be hella cool.

 

In a nutshell : yeah for finesse fighters involving build tradeoffs, nay for rogues becoming stronger tanks than fighters for free.

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It sucked that there was no upside to wearing light/some medium armor. Not to say you couldnt do it and be fine.. It was just a style choice that disadvantaged you a little at that point. It was always better to go heavy on melee and as light as possible on ranged. If they decide to keep it mostly the same setup I at least hope they provide talents or proficiencies for light, medium, and heavy armor to make so light armored melee doesnt always have to be a glass cannon.

A rogue talent, for every successful time you hit an enemy without getting hit you gain something, possibly attack speed? Evasion? A active parry ability that completely negates the enemies next physical attack? God I wish I could work in game balance/design.

good idea except I would rather see like a light armor training talent thats available for all classes and something along the lines of.. for every 2 points (over 10) in dexterity now yields you (x)% evasion EDIT: while wearing light armor. Then evasion basically equates DR except you make it null (or loses some effectiveness) if you are suffering a status effect that affects mobility. doing that would still mean high deflection armor is universally better for defense but not the only "best" choice for melee characters.

Edited by DigitalCrack
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It sucked that there was no upside to wearing light/some medium armor. Not to say you couldnt do it and be fine.. It was just a style choice that disadvantaged you a little at that point. It was always better to go heavy on melee and as light as possible on ranged. If they decide to keep it mostly the same setup I at least hope they provide talents or proficiencies for light, medium, and heavy armor to make so light armored melee doesnt always have to be a glass cannon.

A rogue talent, for every successful time you hit an enemy without getting hit you gain something, possibly attack speed? Evasion? A active parry ability that completely negates the enemies next physical attack? God I wish I could work in game balance/design.

good idea except I would rather see like a light armor training talent thats available for all classes and something along the lines of.. for every 2 points (over 10) in dexterity now yields you (x)% evasion EDIT: while wearing light armor. Then evasion basically equates DR except you make it null (or loses some effectiveness) if you are suffering a status effect that affects mobility. doing that would still mean high deflection armor is universally better for defense but not the only "best" choice for melee characters.

 

I like this, it's efficient and easy, but I do also wish more more cool but practical actives for melee classes. 

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Or make evasion reduce accuracy of opponent targeting you. So if you have 30% evasion then your oppenents accuracy value is cut by 30%. This would inadvertently make one handed better against light armor proficiency, as well as the black jacket subclass. Just my thoughts anyway to make armors outside of heavy appealing. Also by making evasion vs accuracy, when you do get hit you woukd still take damage like a light armored person would.

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Hmmmm.... The problem as I see it with regards to introducing a relationship between dexterity and evasion / dodging would be how then would you balance the Monk class that relies upon the wounds mechanic. The only way to do this would be to have it affect DR instead, but as Boeroer suggested, this would be a bit too op and easy to abuse. Not sure there is an elegant solution here. Unless you gave each "finess" class their own specific ability. Give rogues evasion, and give monk's DR, but then you'd just make an untouchable monk / rogue multiclass and abuse the mechanic, so that's not really an option either.

 

Besides, I really enjoyed playing a squishy rogue in PoE. Lots of damage while assisting, but if I get cornered I was in the poop. But even then you could use abilities to get out of trouble. Made micro'ing the rogue probably my favourite of all the PoE classes. 

 

Just my 2cp.

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Hmmmm.... The problem as I see it with regards to introducing a relationship between dexterity and evasion / dodging would be how then would you balance the Monk class that relies upon the wounds mechanic. The only way to do this would be to have it affect DR instead, but as Boeroer suggested, this would be a bit too op and easy to abuse. Not sure there is an elegant solution here. Unless you gave each "finess" class their own specific ability. Give rogues evasion, and give monk's DR, but then you'd just make an untouchable monk / rogue multiclass and abuse the mechanic, so that's not really an option either.

 

Besides, I really enjoyed playing a squishy rogue in PoE. Lots of damage while assisting, but if I get cornered I was in the poop. But even then you could use abilities to get out of trouble. Made micro'ing the rogue probably my favourite of all the PoE classes. 

 

Just my 2cp.

That's why you make the "evasion from Dexterity" part of a light armor handling talent.  So evasion isn't naturally granted by Dex to people who wear light armor, they have to have the talent.  So shouldn't effect the monk.

 

Edit: regardless of how its done would just be nice to see armor handling talents for light, medium, and heavy.  giving you a bonus for "training" in a particular category of armor.

Edited by DigitalCrack
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I have an idea:

- each point of dex above 10 gives a chance to evade a hit completely dependent on armor

So per point of dex, you get 0% dodge in heavy armor, 1% dodge in medium armor, 2% dodge in light armor, 3% dodge in cloth and 4% dodge when naked.

This is only for attacks that target deflection, it does not help agains attacks that target fort, ref, will

- The bonus is lowered or lost when you suffer under effects that influence movement ( like only half the bonus when you are hobbled, no bonus when you are stunned)

- There may be talents that influence this (modal talent "hyperactive": You can move very fast in combat, so your dodge chance is doubled. But sometimes your fast movement means that you jump into an enemies blade. So when you get hit by an attack that targets your defection, you suffer additional 25% bleeding damage fom the hit.)

 

This is just an idea and I do not know if it is good or bad.

The numbers mean nothing, I just used some numbers to present the general idea.

 

At the moment, the advantage of armor is higher DR and their disadvantage is higher recovery time.

If something like dodge was added, we need to change the whole balancing a lot.

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I have an idea:

- each point of dex above 10 gives a chance to evade a hit completely dependent on armor

So per point of dex, you get 0% dodge in heavy armor, 1% dodge in medium armor, 2% dodge in light armor, 3% dodge in cloth and 4% dodge when naked.

This is only for attacks that target deflection, it does not help agains attacks that target fort, ref, will

- The bonus is lowered or lost when you suffer under effects that influence movement ( like only half the bonus when you are hobbled, no bonus when you are stunned)

- There may be talents that influence this (modal talent "hyperactive": You can move very fast in combat, so your dodge chance is doubled. But sometimes your fast movement means that you jump into an enemies blade. So when you get hit by an attack that targets your defection, you suffer additional 25% bleeding damage fom the hit.)

 

This is just an idea and I do not know if it is good or bad.

The numbers mean nothing, I just used some numbers to present the general idea.

 

At the moment, the advantage of armor is higher DR and their disadvantage is higher recovery time.

If something like dodge was added, we need to change the whole balancing a lot.

not bad except I would keep it a talent instead of armor having a natural dodge only cause as was pointed out ealier the Monk class gets screwed if evasion exists naturally.

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I have seen a few people mention that they don't think there is an advantage to little or no armor. Obviously defensively this is true but the attack speed malus has a huge impact on some of the most damaging builds. Under the effects of DAoM potion that 50% (~22%dps loss) malus becomes a 100% (~31%dps loss) malus, and gets worse as you stack more and more AS (until you max out). At max recovery that malus represents a ~41% dps loss. You can hit full recovery with 2 handers in plate but it is going to require a good bit of investment.

 

My point is that I wouldn't expect to have a no-shield light armor tank without a serious damage tradeoff.

Edited by George_Truman
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I know it is a tough balance, like in Tyranny there's  talents that lets all your non magical defense be switched to one stat, that's so damn op, but there are no really good defenses based off light armour/finesse in PoE.

 

Maybe some kind of proficiency that uses light armour and Dex so we can have front line finesse types in PoE2... please and ty kindly.

 

Finesse doesn't really go well in the front lines in this particular technological era. In order to dodge a direct blow, you need room to maneuver. A strong direct attack cannot simply be parried away if you have no room to maneuver, or you're fighting against multiple opponents and moving away from one blow means effectively moving towards another. I really don't support 'finesse' tanks, they're not plausible in the least. What I think is that deflection should suffer a stacking penalty every time you get swung at that you rapidly recover from, so that against foes that attack slow and powerful and you have the time to recover from your evasive maneuvers, dodge is better, but against multiple foes you'll get torn to pieces.

The most important step you take in your life is the next one.

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