The loss of Vancian casting?!

[Gfted1]

Bummer. I guess they have to squeeze that camping supply mechanic in somehow. Do you have a link to injury system?

[Ganrich]

Bummer. I guess they have to squeeze that camping supply mechanic in somehow. Do you have a link to injury system?

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/119024818

 

It was mentioned on the Twitch stream here. The injury system will replace the health/endurance mechanic, and the empower mechanic replaces per rest abilities. So it seems most (if not all) abilities/spells will be per encounter with Empower making those abilities better in different ways. Increased accuracy/damage/longer duration/etc.

Edited February 2, 2017 by Ganrich

[Flouride]

I for one won't miss Vancian spell system. It was more of a drag and the main reason why I was forced to rest with my party as I was running out of spells to use. Especially on lower levels it's really annoying game mechanic.

 

Yes, it removes one tactical layer from the game, but at the same time empowerment adds one. This system sounds like it's funnier to play the game instead of running back to town and fetching more camping supplies because you just happened run out of such before some harder encounter where you need all of your spells.

[MaxQuest]

I believe this will be a significant step back in terms of strategic resource management.

That's right. Unless Empowered spells will also get some secondary effects (cc or single-target -> aoe; e.g. empowered Fireball not just deals more damage, but also knockbacks enemies; or lets say empowered Minor Avatar also partially affects team members), it will indeed remove one layer of resource management.

 

---

Although the idea itself, is quite interesting, plus it makes sense RP wise.

A wizard can easily throw minor missiles all day without any signs of fatigue. But to make a cast more powerful, empower it, would require a special amount of focus and effort.

 

The main question is... how are they going to balance that. Currently:

A level 3 priest has access to 18 spells and can cast 6 spells (4 rank 1, and 2 rank 2) before resting. Does that mean that he will be able open-up each fight with 6 per-encounter casts?

If so, vancian spells are likely to be nerfed quite below the level of abilities that use focus, phrases or wounds, as those cannot be thrown just as easy, and require build-up.

Edited February 2, 2017 by MaxQuest

[Seari]

So you guys prefer spamming the same spells every encounter? With the vancian spell system you can't just spam the same spells because you run out of casts for that level, with this you will just do the same thing every time.

[Ganrich]

So you guys prefer spamming the same spells every encounter? With the vancian spell system you can't just spam the same spells because you run out of casts for that level, with this you will just do the same thing every time.

Yup, and that's why I like Vancian. I'm not saying it doesn't have issues (low levels suck), but now we will mostl likely just rinse and repeat every combat. Also, spells tend to get more homogeneous when you move to the more "modern" systems. Which is something that disappoints me.

 

PS. Thing is about low levels is that in 30 mins or so in the first game... you were level four, iirc.

[illathid]

I say good riddance. The vancian system is terrible and I'm excited to see how this one works in detail.

[JerekKruger]

So you guys prefer spamming the same spells every encounter? With the vancian spell system you can't just spam the same spells because you run out of casts for that level, with this you will just do the same thing every time.

 

That really depends on how many per encounter slots spell casters get per spell level, and how spells scale with level.

[LordCrash]

TBH I've never liked Vancian casting. It works in tabletop, but in game so far it's come down to spamming a sleep button. Oh no, Aloth ran out of spells again, better sleep in this dungeon surrounded by enemies even though it's the middle of the day. In all practicality it IS per encounter because you can just sleep between every fight, with a slight inconvenience - camping supplies/finding an inn is at most a bit irritating. It's not like dungeon enemies respawn, or at least I've never seen them do it. If I really need more spells I'll go through the irritating slog of retracing my steps, going to an inn, and finding my way back. The only thing encouraging to use less spells isn't strategy, it's annoyance.

 

You can get around that by limiting the number of available resting instances. In (the rogue-like) Darkest Dungeon you have to buy campfire-sets before you go out exploring a dungeon. And you can only rest a certain amount of times before you need to head back to town. A mechanic like that really adds strategy and tactical depth to the game because you have to think about whether you'd already rest again, risking that you might run out of your lont-term supplies and health later on, or whether you just head on a bit, risking to die because you might run out of your short-term supplies and health right now.

 

Another viable possibility to limit resting is to only allow resting in certain pre-defined places. That way you kind of force the players to carefully manage their available skills and resources until the next possible resting spot. It's the same basic principle that was used for the campfire system in Dark Souls, for example. There is already a variation of that limitation in place in the old Infinity games by the way. You could never rest in short distance to enemies and you got the message that enemies were nearby. Another mechanic that added risk to resting was the possibility that you could get raided while sleeping (a mechanic that was also applied on travelling in order to make it riskier to just head back to town all the time).

 

I agree with you that a Vancian magic system without any limitation to resting could end in endless resting activities after pretty much every minor combat encounter. So yes, a certain limitation to this ability is needed. But I have to say that I don't like cool-down systems either (also true for "cool-down inspired" systems). I think a Vancian system with well made limitations to resting always trump a cool-down system in respect to tactical depth and player choice (and well, that's something I really value). And it makes certain shenangians of cool-down systems like running around in circles until you can cast again impossible which is imo always a good idea gameplay-wise.

Edited February 2, 2017 by LordCrash

[Gfted1]

 

So you guys prefer spamming the same spells every encounter? With the vancian spell system you can't just spam the same spells because you run out of casts for that level, with this you will just do the same thing every time.

Yup, and that's why I like Vancian. I'm not saying it doesn't have issues (low levels suck), but now we will mostl likely just rinse and repeat every combat. Also, spells tend to get more homogeneous when you move to the more "modern" systems. Which is something that disappoints me.

 

PS. Thing is about low levels is that in 30 mins or so in the first game... you were level four, iirc.

 

I'm not following the differences. Vancian = memorize number of spells per level that can be cast. Grimoire = Contains amount of spells per level that can be cast. Why does the Grimoire method force the "spamming of the same spells"? Each method allows the user to choose which spells to memorize.

[Gromnir]

we only ever had vancian casting in poe 'cause a small number o' vocal protesters wanted those spell casting classes with familiar ie/d&d names to have familiar ie/d&d vancian casting.  so we get a mess where the power curve o' a handful o' classes is the same, old, busted arse d&d nonsense where wizards and druids and priests is weak at low levels and op at higher levels. were a mistake from the start to cave to the whim o' the mob in spite o' obsidian belief o' the more appropriateness o' per-encounter powers/spells.  if obsidian is final giving vancian casting the viking funeral it deserves, then so much the better.

 

will admit some minor surprise.  as broken as is vancian, particular in a game which also has classes using per-encounter, poe2 is being sold to folks who bought poe1.  didn't think obsidian would mess with a working, if broken arse, formula.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Flouride]

So you guys prefer spamming the same spells every encounter? With the vancian spell system you can't just spam the same spells because you run out of casts for that level, with this you will just do the same thing every time.

 

I rather spam same spells than be forced into resting constantly due to running out of useful spells. Vancian spell system + random ambushes during rest period = save&load spamming. PoE didn't have those random ambushes, but I remember them from Baldur's Gate and everytime I wanted to punch someone in the face for coming up with that design.

[LordCrash]

 

 

So you guys prefer spamming the same spells every encounter? With the vancian spell system you can't just spam the same spells because you run out of casts for that level, with this you will just do the same thing every time.

Yup, and that's why I like Vancian. I'm not saying it doesn't have issues (low levels suck), but now we will mostl likely just rinse and repeat every combat. Also, spells tend to get more homogeneous when you move to the more "modern" systems. Which is something that disappoints me.

 

PS. Thing is about low levels is that in 30 mins or so in the first game... you were level four, iirc.

 

I'm not following the differences. Vancian = memorize <x> number of spells per level that can be cast. Grimoire = Contains <x> amount of spells per level that can be cast. Why does the Grimoire method force the "spamming of the same spells"? Each method allows the user to choose which spells to memorize.

 

 

Hm. I always thought that Grimoire was a part of the Vancian system, but maybe I'm wrong here.

 

we only ever had vancian casting in poe 'cause a small number o' vocal protesters wanted those spell casting classes with familiar ie/d&d names

 

Please add proof to your claim that this was only a minority. I guess you can't...

Edited February 2, 2017 by LordCrash

[Ganrich]

 

 

So you guys prefer spamming the same spells every encounter? With the vancian spell system you can't just spam the same spells because you run out of casts for that level, with this you will just do the same thing every time.

Yup, and that's why I like Vancian. I'm not saying it doesn't have issues (low levels suck), but now we will mostl likely just rinse and repeat every combat. Also, spells tend to get more homogeneous when you move to the more "modern" systems. Which is something that disappoints me.PS. Thing is about low levels is that in 30 mins or so in the first game... you were level four, iirc.

I'm not following the differences. Vancian = memorize <x> number of spells per level that can be cast. Grimoire = Contains <x> amount of spells per level that can be cast. Why does the Grimoire method force the "spamming of the same spells"? Each method allows the user to choose which spells to memorize.

In a Vancian system, if you've used all but one of a level X spell use, then you start hoarding it for the right moment. So, you can't lean on it every fight. For instance, Slicken. It's level one, and you have four casts initially, but you've use 3. It's your best disable given what your fighting, but you don't want to burn the last one because a bigger fight is possibly ahead where you will need it. So, you save it, and you find other spells from other levels to use that will make due.

 

Where if everything is per encounter, you will always have it available, and you use it every fight.

[JerekKruger]

In a Vancian system, if you've used all but one of a level X spell use, then you start hoarding it for the right moment. So, you can't lean on it every fight. For instance, Slicken. It's level one, and you have four casts initially, but you've use 3. It's your best disable given what your fighting, but you don't want to burn the last one because a bigger fight is possibly ahead where you will need it. So, you save it, and you find other spells from other levels to use that will make due.

Where if everything is per encounter, you will always have it available, and you use it every fight.

 

Yes and no. For many people, the vancian system of the Baldur's Gate series simply meant that after every single fight you had a nap. Spells were essentially per encounter with the annoying interruption of clicking the rest button after each fight.

[Ganrich]

 

In a Vancian system, if you've used all but one of a level X spell use, then you start hoarding it for the right moment. So, you can't lean on it every fight. For instance, Slicken. It's level one, and you have four casts initially, but you've use 3. It's your best disable given what your fighting, but you don't want to burn the last one because a bigger fight is possibly ahead where you will need it. So, you save it, and you find other spells from other levels to use that will make due.

 

Where if everything is per encounter, you will always have it available, and you use it every fight.

 

 

Yes and no. For many people, the vancian system of the Baldur's Gate series simply meant that after every single fight you had a nap. Spells were essentially per encounter with the annoying interruption of clicking the rest button after each fight.

And PoE had limits to resting supplies which stopped rest spamming. So, that issue wasn't prevalent.

[LordCrash]

I actually prefer a Vancian system (Grimoire included) in which the available resting spots are predefined and limited by the devs - and they should be quite rare, to offer some tactical challenge. And you could of course make that a special difficulty level to turn on/off in the settings to give the player more choice how challenging they want the game to be.

 

I never understood (mechanically) why you could only rest in inns while being in town while being allowed to rest anywhere in the wild. Of course, from a narrative perspective it makes at least some sense but from a mechancial (gameplay-wise) perspective it would be better if resting spots were limited everywhere.

Edited February 2, 2017 by LordCrash

[Seari]

 

So you guys prefer spamming the same spells every encounter? With the vancian spell system you can't just spam the same spells because you run out of casts for that level, with this you will just do the same thing every time.

 

I rather spam same spells than be forced into resting constantly due to running out of useful spells. Vancian spell system + random ambushes during rest period = save&load spamming. PoE didn't have those random ambushes, but I remember them from Baldur's Gate and everytime I wanted to punch someone in the face for coming up with that design.

 

Maybe you shouldn't waste all your spell casts on one encounter and save them for when they're needed on tougher encounters. I am playing on potd and I'm always resting because of low health and not because of lack of spell casts. With implements and the Blast talent, plus the arcane assault, wizards are still useful on trash packs, they don't need to always be casting spells.

 

With the new system you will just cast the same spell sequence every time, no longer using the spells as a resource, or putting any thought into it.

Edited February 2, 2017 by Seari

[Gfted1]

Do spells scale now in PoE2?

[Gromnir]

 

 

Please add proof to your claim that this was only a minority. I guess you can't...

 

77,000 backers, and we only ever saw a dozen or so folks demanding such on the board.  we never made claims o' the total folks wanting vancian, but reason for the change were protests, and the number o' board protesters were never large, even when compared to total board traffic.  "small number o' vocal protesters."  again, reading skills is useful. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited February 2, 2017 by Gromnir

[JerekKruger]

And PoE had limits to resting supplies which stopped rest spamming. So, that issue wasn't prevalent.

 

 

Pretty much every dungeon and wilderness map had at least one (often two or three) camping supplies in a container somewhere. Rest spamming was very doable.

[rivmusique]

Keep PoE-Vancian, get rid of camping supplies, replace with single use rest spots. Have the game auto-save right before a spot is consumed, so people can reload back when they screw up their resource rationing. Don't tell anyone you're doing this though, horrible players will complain and drop their pledge. Keep it as a nice surprise for release night. 

[LordCrash]

 

 

 

Please add proof to your claim that this was only a minority. I guess you can't...

 

77,000 backers, and we only ever say a dozen or so folks demanding such on the board.  we never made claims o' the total folks wanting vancian, but reason for the change were protests, and the number o' board protesters were never large, even when compared to total board traffic.  "small number o' vocal protesters."  again, reading skills is useful. 

 

 

"Small vocal number of vocal protesters" reminds me more of yourself (and your second personality). Actually, you could say that about ANYTHING that is discussed on this board and elswhere...

 

And I don't know any (tactical) magic system that is LESS broken than the Vancian one but maybe that's just me...

Edited February 2, 2017 by LordCrash

[JerekKruger]

With the new system you will just cast the same spell sequence every time, no longer using the spells as a resource, or putting any thought into it.

 

Only if combat mechanics are sufficiently simplistic that there is an obvious best spell, and only if lower level spells don't scale in any way.

 

Let's be honest, once you became a mid-high level spell caster in the old IE games you stopped memorising (or casting if you were a divine spellcaster) the vast majority of low level spells because they scaled awfully. Instead you filled all your low level spell slots with the one or two spells that still stood up at higher levels. It was still the same spell sequence: that sequence was just a little longer and lasted over a few battles rather than on a per battle basis. 

[Seari]

If they reduced the number of resting supplies found, would that fix your problem? Or would you just travel across the map to an inn just to rest and recover your spells. Maybe you would use your spells more sparingly without camping supplies lying around every corner.