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I'd start by using it to fix the gender imbalance in almost every group of cRPG companions, Pillars of Eternity and Dragon Age included

 

Since BG the only games I played were Pillars and Tyranny, so I don't know nothing about Dragon Age or any other game. But you shurely can't complain about Pillars being not feminist enough. There is no total equality in the sense of women and men always doing the same things and having the same roles, but they created believable societies in which women inhabit important roles and there is nothing that prevents women to be whatever they want. We have female knights, female leaders, female whatever.

 

There are even two societies in which the roles of women and men are totally interchangable. Pillars 1 just takes place in the more medieval part of the world, so I think they didn't want to go too far here (But even here, we have the ogres, which have a matriarchy.), but I think in Part 2 we will see even more leading women. While reading the updates for PoE2 I even get the impression that they go a similar route as in Tyranny: The land belongs to the men, the sea belongs to women (Which I think is a very cool idea). At least two different women are mentioned that inhabit the role of a ship's captain, if I remember correctly.

 

Regarding the balance thing: Yes there were more male than female characters in Pillars of Eternity. But that decision seemed to be made out of creative reasons. As far as I understood, Durance originally should have been a woman (I forgot her name, but the artwork looked nice). I think, it just didn't fit the character anymore. And then there was Callisca. I admit that she was no real replacement for the planned female priest character, but she was cool. In Pillars 2 we'll get a lot more women, as it seems. And the only reason, why there is one more men, is that they took Eder and Aloth from part 1. And don't tell me, women don't like those two. Maybe we'll even get an 8th companion, which is a women. I don't care which gender, as long as it's a ****ed up weirdo.

 

The reason why I write this is, that I think the PoE-Team tried to make women an important part of the world, while maintaining a historically believable world. That is not easy and I think they did good so far. In my opinion, it is a little bit unfair, to complain about it.

Edited by Lord_Mord
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I'd start by using it to fix the gender imbalance in almost every group of cRPG companions, Pillars of Eternity and Dragon Age included

 

Since BG the only games I played were Pillars and Tyranny, so I don't know nothing about Dragon Age or any other game. But you shurely can't complain about Pillars being not feminist enough.

 

 

Joking aside, I don't have any Serious Feminist Issues with Pillars of Eternity. Like you say, it's a game with a lot of great female characters that treats women as people and has plenty of them that are important to the story and the world. Probably the only thing I would change on that score if I really were in charge of the game would be keeping Calisca alive to give us another female companion - and that's only because there's a long-term pattern of male companions outnumbering female companions in cRPGs that I would like to see shift.

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I'd start by using it to fix the gender imbalance in almost every group of cRPG companions, Pillars of Eternity and Dragon Age included

 

Since BG the only games I played were Pillars and Tyranny, so I don't know nothing about Dragon Age or any other game. But you shurely can't complain about Pillars being not feminist enough.

 

Joking aside, I don't have any Serious Feminist Issues with Pillars of Eternity. Like you say, it's a game with a lot of great female characters that treats women as people and has plenty of them that are important to the story and the world. Probably the only thing I would change on that score if I really were in charge of the game would be keeping Calisca alive to give us another female companion - and that's only because there's a long-term pattern of male companions outnumbering female companions in cRPGs that I would like to see shift.

 

Agreed. Also considering White March gave us two more female companions and one male companion, the ratio evened out (even though there is separate can of worms with female characters being locked behind a paywall, etc.)

 

I think the argument holds well against MOST games. I don't have a problem with some games with almost exclusively male cast, but the annoying part is that so many of them have a 60-80% male ratios in groups. In comparison, Tyranny is like the only RPG I know to have 4/2 female to male companion ratio.

Edited by Sonntam
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Man, I wish that Evol Feminists really had the kind of power over games that some people imagine we have. (I'd start by using it to fix the gender imbalance in almost every group of cRPG companions, Pillars of Eternity and Dragon Age included. Then I would make the devs give me a pony.)

 

You're saying 'gender balance' like it's a good thing.

 

 

What else would you expect from an Evol Feminist?

 

 

Nothing, I guess, although I would like to at least expect the common decency not to ram their poisonous political agenda into a discussion about gaming.


The most important step you take in your life is the next one.

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Man, I wish that Evol Feminists really had the kind of power over games that some people imagine we have. (I'd start by using it to fix the gender imbalance in almost every group of cRPG companions, Pillars of Eternity and Dragon Age included. Then I would make the devs give me a pony.)

 

Is there gender imbalance in those games?

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Man, I wish that Evol Feminists really had the kind of power over games that some people imagine we have. (I'd start by using it to fix the gender imbalance in almost every group of cRPG companions, Pillars of Eternity and Dragon Age included. Then I would make the devs give me a pony.)

 

You're saying 'gender balance' like it's a good thing.

 

 

What else would you expect from an Evol Feminist?

 

 

Nothing, I guess, although I would like to at least expect the common decency not to ram their poisonous political agenda into a discussion about gaming.

 

 

*shrug*

 

Someone else brought it up, and I can never resist poking people who get triggered by the existence of feminist gamers.

 

 

 

Is there gender imbalance in those games?

 

There is. There are six male companions in POE1, and five female ones. (And two of those are in the expansions; it's five vs. three in the base game.) Dragon Age: Origins has five male companions and three female ones, plus a male dog as a golem that used to be a woman as DLC. DA2 is the closest to an even ratio - four male companions and four female in the base game, but there's a fifth male companion available as DLC.  Dragon Age: Inquisition has six male companions and three female. (There are two female advisors and one male, but it's still seven men and five women in the Inquisitor's inner circle.)

 

The difference in numbers doesn't look like much, but the thing is that almost every cRPG has about the same ratio, if not even more tipped in the direction of male companions. I think Tyranny is the only one I can think of where it goes the other way.

 

(Is this a big problem in the overall scheme of things? It is not. Would I still like to see it change? Yes, I would. I want to see more female characters in video games in general.)

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Tyranny's companions were all really interesting and unique also. I didn't feel like they fell so easily into stereotypical roles as a lot of Bioware companions tend to. 

 

I recently watched a netflix show that's an adaptation of the Dirk Gently books, really liked it. Anyway I was talking about it with my mom who had recommended it to me and she said what she liked most about it was that the female characters came off as tho they had been written as people, not female characters. I think that applies to video games, developers need to stop worrying so much about how they write female characters and just do it! Ignore all of the people on various different sides telling you how it should be done, women are people, women experience many of the same things as men. They don't always need to be written specifically as female characters. 

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Hypothetical

 

 

If youre a woman/girl and your preference goes to girl characters to interact with..

 

(If you dont have that preference then there is no problem to begin with)

(Same counts if youre not talking for yourself but in general)

 

The same can then be said for men/boys...

 

Which one is the biggest demographic?

 

Male.

 

So by that logic its just basic supply demand and/or customer service.

 

I dont know about you guys but i know 10 gamerguys for every gamergirl.

 

(Smarthphone games not counted)

 

Still... lets say im wrong.

 

Its a higher number.

Lets make it 40.

 

Lets just for the sake of argument say that almost half of all the girls you know play videogames.

 

Which

They

Dont

 

But lets say.

 

A 40/60 split.

At best.

 

Is perfectly balanced if you look at those numbers.

 

 

I dont care myself. I would play an all female star cast. Its the story and writing. Not the gender. Im a reader. I play these games bz they are a form of literature.

 

 

Side note:

 

Gender equality is NOT a balance across the board. It means being neutral and not looking at gender when making decisions. So a female cook should make as much money as a male cook bz its the cooking that counts.

 

However... a bouncer would most of the times be a male. Not bz girls cannot join that bouncer all male club but simply between the 2 sexes males are better equiped to be bouncers. As between 2PERSONS. He is the most qualified.

 

Sometimes... a character needs to be male. Or needs to be female.

Some swimg both ways.

 

But it is the STORY that comes first.

 

There is no female Edér becauss hes a farmer soldier part of 2 brothers who went to war.

It doesnt stick so good if women are used.

 

Could it be done? Sure... but its not the same. Male is better.

 

Reverse is true!!!

 

Pallegina her backstory is MORE interesting because she is female. In a male only brotherhood.

 

That and her identity crisis as a ģodlike make it ENORMOUSLY intetesting for her to be female. Its a perfect fit.

 

My point being...

 

Let the story dictate what s gonna be written.

Not some balance issue.

Edited by Leeuwenhart
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I understand that a lot of things are written with male protagonists and even race has the same issue being predominantly white.

 

But... people will write about what they know best.

 

As a reader and super amateur wanna be writer ive seen that most of the times... women write women better then men. Especially as a male reader its a real fresh angle. Because you see the female soul in the writing.

 

Its must be the same for men then.

 

We are born the same way. Raised differently. Even in the West.

 

It makes how our eyes work the same. Yet what we see different.

 

Today still there are more male writers then female

Or directors

Or whatever

 

Not a lot... some areas are closing the gap.

 

As should be. I applaud everybody doing what they want.

 

But until there are more female writers then male writers thete will always be more male protagonists.

 

That does not mean females cant write male characters or vice versa.

 

I LOVE Aloth. Hes hilarious and tragic at the same time.

 

And people can choose what they write.

 

But a lot drift of to preferences akin to their nature.

 

 

Writing 1on1: write about what you KNOW

 

And we all know ourselves.

 

(Most of us)

 

 

The End

 

 

Hahahaha

Edited by Leeuwenhart

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Which one is the biggest demographic?

 

Male.

 

So by that logic its just basic supply demand and/or customer service.

 

As the US comic book industry learned, that line of logic does little for growing the market and ensuring a healthy business. Because it's really not quite as straightforward as that.

 

"Men" is a smaller potential customer base than "Men + Women".

 

Let us say you have a large male customer base and a small female customer base. Who do you pander to?

 

Men? Well, there are already a lot of male customers, so what are the odds that you will get even more male customers? How many men are still going to start buying your products when they haven't before? Also, since most of the rest of the industry is probably pandering to men, how are you going to stand out from your competitors? Further, what are the odds that you are going to alienate what few female customers you do have? The industry isn't marketing to them anyway, so the odds of them sticking around when they're consistently ignored are probably pretty small.

 

Women? Well, you have few female customers. Perhaps this is because your product just doesn't do it for them. But perhaps it's because the relentlessly male-centric marketing drives them away. Since there are currently few women customers, what are the odds that you end up attracting new women customers who haven't tried the product before? Since none of your competitors are targeting this market, you are sure to stand out and attract at least some attention. Then again, what are the odds that you are going to alienate all the male customers you have? They can go wherever they want, since the industry is catering to them anyway. Will you lose more men than attract new women? On the other hand, maybe even men are interested in something new and different once in a while. Who knows?

 

These are very broad strokes, obviously. 'Men' aren't a uniform monolith with all the same tastes and opinions any more than 'Women' are. Still, it seems to me that for any business, a broad audience is better than a narrow one.

 

"Our customer base is mostly male so we should include mostly men" makes sense if you're trying sell Viagra, but not if what you're selling is a piece of entertaining art/artful entertainment.

 

Finally, let's try a different tack. FPSs sell big. RTwP CRPGs do not sell nearly as big. Therefore, it is reasonable to assume that there are more FPS enthusiasts out there than there are CRPG enthusiasts out there. But would any of us really be happy if Obsidian decided to just target the biggest demographic and start making FPSs to supply what the majority demands?

No, of course not. And not just because Call of Duty would crush them, but because it would probably also make the available products on the market even more interchangeable and same-y.

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Then again, forcing this 'sexual diversity' - crap will ultimately alienate both men AND women. Same goes for feminism. Not a good business approach if you ask me.

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Man, I wish that Evol Feminists really had the kind of power over games that some people imagine we have. (I'd start by using it to fix the gender imbalance in almost every group of cRPG companions, Pillars of Eternity and Dragon Age included. Then I would make the devs give me a pony.)

 

You're saying 'gender balance' like it's a good thing.

 

 

What else would you expect from an Evol Feminist?

 

 

Nothing, I guess, although I would like to at least expect the common decency not to ram their poisonous political agenda into a discussion about gaming.

 

 

*shrug*

 

Someone else brought it up, and I can never resist poking people who get triggered by the existence of feminist gamers.

 

 

 

Is there gender imbalance in those games?

 

There is. There are six male companions in POE1, and five female ones. (And two of those are in the expansions; it's five vs. three in the base game.) Dragon Age: Origins has five male companions and three female ones, plus a male dog as a golem that used to be a woman as DLC. DA2 is the closest to an even ratio - four male companions and four female in the base game, but there's a fifth male companion available as DLC.  Dragon Age: Inquisition has six male companions and three female. (There are two female advisors and one male, but it's still seven men and five women in the Inquisitor's inner circle.)

 

The difference in numbers doesn't look like much, but the thing is that almost every cRPG has about the same ratio, if not even more tipped in the direction of male companions. I think Tyranny is the only one I can think of where it goes the other way.

 

(Is this a big problem in the overall scheme of things? It is not. Would I still like to see it change? Yes, I would. I want to see more female characters in video games in general.)

 

 

And I bet the Obsidian Studio has a LOT more men than women also.

 

Be happy at what we have. If gender equality was a thing based on proportions on % of men that create AND play RPGs, we would have wayyy more male protagonists. 

 

This gender thing is so dumb IMO. We know female models like Gisele Buntchen make way more money than male models, and we don't care about it. Mostly women seen to care about that sort of stuff.

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Which one is the biggest demographic?

 

Male.

 

So by that logic its just basic supply demand and/or customer service.

As the US comic book industry learned, that line of logic does little for growing the market and ensuring a healthy business. Because it's really not quite as straightforward as that.

 

"Men" is a smaller potential customer base than "Men + Women".

 

Let us say you have a large male customer base and a small female customer base. Who do you pander to?

 

Men? Well, there are already a lot of male customers, so what are the odds that you will get even more male customers? How many men are still going to start buying your products when they haven't before? Also, since most of the rest of the industry is probably pandering to men, how are you going to stand out from your competitors? Further, what are the odds that you are going to alienate what few female customers you do have? The industry isn't marketing to them anyway, so the odds of them sticking around when they're consistently ignored are probably pretty small.

 

Women? Well, you have few female customers. Perhaps this is because your product just doesn't do it for them. But perhaps it's because the relentlessly male-centric marketing drives them away. Since there are currently few women customers, what are the odds that you end up attracting new women customers who haven't tried the product before? Since none of your competitors are targeting this market, you are sure to stand out and attract at least some attention. Then again, what are the odds that you are going to alienate all the male customers you have? They can go wherever they want, since the industry is catering to them anyway. Will you lose more men than attract new women? On the other hand, maybe even men are interested in something new and different once in a while. Who knows?

 

These are very broad strokes, obviously. 'Men' aren't a uniform monolith with all the same tastes and opinions any more than 'Women' are. Still, it seems to me that for any business, a broad audience is better than a narrow one.

 

"Our customer base is mostly male so we should include mostly men" makes sense if you're trying sell Viagra, but not if what you're selling is a piece of entertaining art/artful entertainment.

 

Finally, let's try a different tack. FPSs sell big. RTwP CRPGs do not sell nearly as big. Therefore, it is reasonable to assume that there are more FPS enthusiasts out there than there are CRPG enthusiasts out there. But would any of us really be happy if Obsidian decided to just target the biggest demographic and start making FPSs to supply what the majority demands?

No, of course not. And not just because Call of Duty would crush them, but because it would probably also make the available products on the market even more interchangeable and same-y.

1 youre assuming we live in a vacuum and new people arent becoming 14 years old and ready to game everyday

 

2changing what you do isnt the same as focusing on what clients you have. Thats like saying playboy magazine should start becoming a newspaper because it sells more copies.

 

3why are there action movies or chickflicks then? And not all one big blend of movies.

 

4 are you seriously saying that if you make an all girl rpg that suddenly double as much women will start gaming?

Im not talking WHAT they game. But IF.

 

I got a gamergf. Hit the jackpot.

But on a 30 friends+families radius around

me she is THE ONLY ONE.

 

I am not saying these women dont care about male games.

I am saying they dont care about GAMES. Period.

 

No amounts of female protagonists change that. Ever.

 

Go to yoùr Friday Night Magic meeting and count the girls.

 

Go to your D&D convention and count the girls.

 

Ofc there are Girls that play. (Like my gf) And if you organise a pax or e3 or whatever and attrack from over the nation you could fill a hall yes.

 

But come on ... you cannot be fighting this goliath of a topic and expecting that pebble to get a critical hit.

 

 

Bottom line is.

We all got our hobbies.

 

Guys go kickboxing,football,racing

 

Gals go horseriding,balet,modern dance

 

Ofc a girl can be a kick ass kickboxer

Ofc a guy can be a whirlwind dancer

 

But how many guys you see riding horses?

Or how many girls racing formula 1?

 

And dont give me keyhole looking examples like

 

But but but horsejockies and sportriders

And and and backgrounddancers for britney spears

 

 

Its a small part enlarged and brought into focus by having spotlights shone upon.

 

Like your girls at pax or whatever if taken from a large enough area.

 

I am NOT saying they dont exist.

I am saying if every gamer ever bought a ticket. And the convention was endless.

 

You would look from your tower and see a Sea of Sausages.

 

 

Ha! Sausages... Guess i must be getting hungry from all that typing XD

 

 

How bout that crowdfunding?

Edited by Leeuwenhart
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Yes.

 

Firm sausages, awakened wood and savoury pies!

 

 

Haha.

Every brothel had savoury pies XD

And every dryad gave you awakened wood XD

 

 

Age :35

Inner Age:10

 

Hahaha

Edited by Leeuwenhart

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I want to apologize for the statements I made about the DA2 companions and their bisexuality: I was working off of an erroneous understanding of what the Word of God situation was (that they're straight for everyone except the player) and I should have checked my facts before opening my mouth.

 

(Smarthphone games not counted)

 

It ****ing floors me every time I see cis men on the internet wonder why there are no women in their hobbies and then engage in this sort of gatekeeping.

 

Also: Men like to pretend that there's some sort of special nugget of maleness that women can't possibly understand, and thus that only men can "properly" write men, but this just isn't true. The essence of privilege is the option of ignorance. Men can go through their entire lives without understanding womanhood but women can't survive without an understanding of manhood. Trans people don't get the option of not understanding cis people. We can write you, but you can't write us.

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Umm... I'd like to think that everyone can write everyone.

Sometimes it needs a bit more work, but in the end, we're all human, and no group has that sort of special nugget of them-ness.


Therefore I have sailed the seas and come

To the holy city of Byzantium. -W.B. Yeats

 

Χριστός ἀνέστη!

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@micamo

 

Everything you wrote i confirmed in my posts.

 

I never said the things your response implies.

 

On the contrary. I said them before you.

 

 

Also... whats the smartphone thing got to do with it all hahaha

Edited by Leeuwenhart

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I accept that, currently, there are more male gamers than female ones.

 

But I reject the notion that gaming is somehow inherently a masculine activity.

 

Remember,

Pink is a colour for boys. Pink is a light red, which is the colour of blood, which is a masculine colour. Boys should wear pink.

Blue is a colour for girls. Blue is the colour of Mary, Mother of Christ, which is a feminine colour. Girls should wear blue.

 

What is "for men" and what is "for women" is not set in stone. At all. Societies change, preferences change.

 

And yes, people turn 14 every day.  But why try to snag only the fourteen-year-old boys, when you could be trying to snag both fourteen-year-old boys and fourteen-year-old girls?

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Ok....

 

Then wait for society to change and you will have your all girl rpg.

 

Meanwhile ill be gaming.

 

 

You do understand that PEOPLE change society because they choose to?

 

 

Women arent choosing because they arent interested.

 

Nobody is putting a gun to their head and keeping them away from a playstation or a computer.

 

Ok. Its free will.

 

Everybody can do what they want.

And a great deal of them choose not too.

 

Hey... i dont want to go see Fifty Shades of Grey Black White Whatever.

Its ok.

 

Choice.

 

 

Its like saying:

 

Hey... why dont we make games and try to win the baby boomers? Everybody born in the 50 60s?

 

Our parents... they DONT game.

 

Certain demographics dont game.

 

They choose other things.

 

Girls! Guys that dont game choose girls hahaha XD

 

 

 

 

(Not all. Not all. Some choose boys that dont game)

Edited by Leeuwenhart
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"The reason women aren't catered to by game developers is because it's all women's fault for not fighting hard enough for it, it's certainly not the developers for going out of their way to exclude them, or my fault for throwing a temper tantrum whenever a developer tries to cater to someone who isn't me."

 

It's a line I see a lot, and it's 100% bull****.

 

 

 We can write you, but you can't write us.

What do you mean by that?

 

 

Marginalized people are socialized with an understanding of what makes privileged people tick, but not vice-versa. Women know how men work. Poor people know how rich people work. Black people know how white people work. Natives know how settlers work. Disabled people know how abled people work. The reverse is not true. If you try to write a marginalized identity that you do not have, you will **** it up. If you work really really hard and do your research you can minimize that ****-up, but you can't eliminate it.

Edited by Micamo

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I don't care if romances are in the game. If they are, I just don't want them to have considerably more detail than non-romance relationships, like in BG2. I think relationships of all types -- platonic, romantic, friendly, rivalry, etc. -- would help the game.

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