Politics 2017

[Gfted1]

I'm curious, and since you slightly cracked the door, may I inquire what is your religion?

[Gromnir]

 

Was the United States a nation based on fear until 1965?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_Nationality_Act_of_1965

 

We were just incredibly racist back then. It got a bit better in 1965. 

 

the civil rights act of 1964 were kinda the sea change moment, but change didn't happen instantaneous.  has been a slow and painful process and more than a few patriotic and earnest americans wish we could turn back the clock to 1964, or 1954, or even 1861.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[algroth]

 

 

 

In light of these deportations and immigration bans, I feel this article bears even greater weight:

 

http://www.vulture.com/2016/12/children-of-men-alfonso-cuaron-c-v-r.html

Hi algoth Sorry I haven't said hello until now 

 

What are your concerns, please be very honest 

 

Hey Bruce! I don't see what isn't concerning about the way things have gone in the Trump administration of yet. You have the president to the most powerful nation in the world acting as an autocrat with complete disregards for human rights, facts, science, or the very values that his country's based on. His combative, disdainful attitude to everyone else both in and outside the US is only bound to cretive further conflict, not lessen it.

 

Okay, its several things. Where do you live if you dont mind me asking ?

 

Argentina. Which is all the more worrisome because I'm feel like I'm reliving a lot of what went on during Kircherism and what I see in Peronism and populism in general, with Trump now. And in Argentina's case, at least our woes don't affect the rest of the world despite our delusions of importance; but you know what they say about America sneezing...

[Volourn]

I do find funny that people find a president/a leader of a certain country proclaiming love/support for the country he is leading as evil.

 

I mean people hear,"Make Amerika Great (Again)!)" and their first thoughts are 'that guy is worse than Hitler'. LMAO

 

I guess presidents/prime ministers should just come out and say"I hate the country I was voted to lead". They would probably be lifted up as paragons of patriotism.

[Hurlshort]

 

If I'm understanding your post correctly, I don't think mooks are afraid that the general US citizen is armed. They mostly plan on dying anyway. And I don't think we've got some secret method for intercepting plots. The "war on terror" has been going on for decades so it seem like someone would have bloodied our noses again by now. What could it be?

 

 

Because Islamic extremists are not a genuine threat to the US. It's not an enemy state trying to wage war on us. They attack civilian targets because they know they have no real chance of toppling our government. Instead they try to spread fear, which they hope will force the government to do stupid things, which will add to their power. It's an ideology, and the danger lies in the spreading of that ideology.   

 

Honestly the President seems to be playing right into their hands. Are internment camps next?

[Volourn]

If people turn to ISIS because Trump banned people froma  few countries (again, I disagree how he did this so uncool) that is on them. And, it shows they are weak, pathetic, and evil. ISIS commits mass murder, rape, etc., so if you join them or even think of joining them 'out of spite of Trump (or anyone's policies) then you are a scumbag piece of crap with no moral fibre. Period. Don't be blaming Trump's (or whoever's)  failing for yours. That is a cop out.

[algroth]

I do find funny that people find a president/a leader of a certain country proclaiming love/support for the country he is leading as evil.

 

I mean people hear,"Make Amerika Great (Again)!)" and their first thoughts are 'that guy is worse than Hitler'. LMAO

 

I guess presidents/prime ministers should just come out and say"I hate the country I was voted to lead". They would probably be lifted up as paragons of patriotism.

The issue is that a slogan like that can be an indicator of either patriotism or nationalism based on the rest of the campaign and propositions. When Trump threatens to deport all Muslims and build a wall and make Mexico pay for it, the slogan only becomes a further indicator of the latter. This aside I personally have a huge disdain for nationalism and patriotism because I've experienced first-hand the effect it can have on the masses, and the way it can be used as an incredibly cheap and false rally cry. I also do not believe I owe the patch of land I was born in anything, so I often see nothing but sensationalism and demagoguery when faced with such campaigns.

Edited January 29, 2017 by algroth

[Malcador]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-38787241

 

 

 

So Steve Bannon is on the NSC, for some reason.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jan/28/lobbying-ban-trump-executive-order-isis-strategy

Trump also said the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff and the director of national intelligence, two of the most senior defense chiefs, will attend meetings only when discussions are related to their “responsibilities and expertise”

Edited January 29, 2017 by Malcador

[Gfted1]

Because Islamic extremists are not a genuine threat to the US. It's not an enemy state trying to wage war on us. They attack civilian targets because they know they have no real chance of toppling our government. Instead they try to spread fear, which they hope will force the government to do stupid things, which will add to their power. It's an ideology, and the danger lies in the spreading of that ideology.

Hmm, I agree and disagree. I don't think they were "one and done". Now they may not be able to pull off another whopper like 9/11 but what prevents a handful of likeminded radicals from getting automatic weapons and going wild? Their methodology is certainly effective for stirring up the public. I wonder why it hasn't happened yet is my question.

[BruceVC]

I do find funny that people find a president/a leader of a certain country proclaiming love/support for the country he is leading as evil.

 

I mean people hear,"Make Amerika Great (Again)!)" and their first thoughts are 'that guy is worse than Hitler'. LMAO

 

I guess presidents/prime ministers should just come out and say"I hate the country I was voted to lead". They would probably be lifted up as paragons of patriotism.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/pm-trudeau-says-canada-welcomes-refugees-052346955.html

 

Its good you guys are finally stepping up ...well done volo

 

I can see Canada converting into a Muslim country, you do realize most Muslims wont like you ?

[Hurlshort]

If people turn to ISIS because Trump banned people froma  few countries (again, I disagree how he did this so uncool) that is on them. And, it shows they are weak, pathetic, and evil. ISIS commits mass murder, rape, etc., so if you join them or even think of joining them 'out of spite of Trump (or anyone's policies) then you are a scumbag piece of crap with no moral fibre. Period. Don't be blaming Trump's (or whoever's)  failing for yours. That is a cop out.

 

That's not quite how it works. If you have a family living and working in the US, in some of these examples for nearly a decade, and suddenly the father is deported back to some war torn country (which the US shares responsibility for it being war-torn to begin with.) That family may have just lost their breadwinner, the kids have lost their dad, their entire lives are flipped upside down. They probably aren't going to pack it up and go to a war-torn country, but you've now created a situation where those kids are incredibly vulnerable to extremist ideologies. The US is no longer the place they came for opportunity, it is the country that forced their father to leave and is filled with people who hate their way of life.

[BruceVC]

If people turn to ISIS because Trump banned people froma  few countries (again, I disagree how he did this so uncool) that is on them. And, it shows they are weak, pathetic, and evil. ISIS commits mass murder, rape, etc., so if you join them or even think of joining them 'out of spite of Trump (or anyone's policies) then you are a scumbag piece of crap with no moral fibre. Period. Don't be blaming Trump's (or whoever's)  failing for yours. That is a cop out.

I agree...its irritating, its like they saying " make sure we can enter or we will become mass murderers " 

[Gromnir]

 

 

If I'm understanding your post correctly, I don't think mooks are afraid that the general US citizen is armed. They mostly plan on dying anyway. And I don't think we've got some secret method for intercepting plots. The "war on terror" has been going on for decades so it seem like someone would have bloodied our noses again by now. What could it be?

 

 

Because Islamic extremists are not a genuine threat to the US. It's not an enemy state trying to wage war on us. They attack civilian targets because they know they have no real chance of toppling our government. Instead they try to spread fear, which they hope will force the government to do stupid things, which will add to their power. It's an ideology, and the danger lies in the spreading of that ideology.   

 

Honestly the President seems to be playing right into their hands. Are internment camps next?

 

oddly enough, during the campaign when trump's supporters and campaign leadership were asked 'bout the dubious legality o' the current President's plans for dealing with immigrants, they near universal mentioned korematsu.

 

...

 

one o' the most reviled Court cases o' the past two centuries and near universal recognized as bad law, were the foundation o' legitimizing the alt-right's plans for making America great again.

 

heed the recent departed J. Scalia's warnings from the linked wp article:

 

"“But you are kidding yourself if you think the same thing will not happen again,” he said.

 

"He used a Latin expression to explain why. “Inter arma enim silent leges … In times of war, the laws fall silent.”

 

"“That’s what was going on — the panic about the war and the invasion of the Pacific and whatnot,” Scalia said. “That’s what happens. It was wrong, but I would not be surprised to see it happen again — in time of war. It’s no justification but it is the reality.”"

 

too many o' us is afraid o' the wrong danger.  fear gets us the patriot act and korematsu. legally, it can't happen again, but it will happen again.

[Elerond]

It is mind warming to see that all the super Christians and bible thumpers in US Senate and Congress are still willing stand behind Christian values like they are when it comes to subjects like marriage equality and having right to refuse service because of religious values

 

[Guard Dog]

 

If people turn to ISIS because Trump banned people froma  few countries (again, I disagree how he did this so uncool) that is on them. And, it shows they are weak, pathetic, and evil. ISIS commits mass murder, rape, etc., so if you join them or even think of joining them 'out of spite of Trump (or anyone's policies) then you are a scumbag piece of crap with no moral fibre. Period. Don't be blaming Trump's (or whoever's)  failing for yours. That is a cop out.

 

That's not quite how it works. If you have a family living and working in the US, in some of these examples for nearly a decade, and suddenly the father is deported back to some war torn country (which the US shares responsibility for it being war-torn to begin with.) That family may have just lost their breadwinner, the kids have lost their dad, their entire lives are flipped upside down. They probably aren't going to pack it up and go to a war-torn country, but you've now created a situation where those kids are incredibly vulnerable to extremist ideologies. The US is no longer the place they came for opportunity, it is the country that forced their father to leave and is filled with people who hate their way of life.

 

Brother, you said it all right there. That is the biggest argument against intervention in foreign conflicts. Intervening in other nations makes things worse every time. Yes Assad is a bad guy. Yes he was committing atrocities on his citizens and yes things are worse off for trying to stop it. If muslims want to kill muslims, LET THEM. It is NOT OUR PROBLEM. Saddam Hussein was a bad guy but Iraq was an effective counter weight on Iran. To "save" the Iraqi people we invaded and removed him. How did that work out? The US backed a breakaway faction that set up a government in South Vietnam. Then militarily supported it for 10 yeas. How did that work out? Enough is enough already. US "interests" begin on the east coast of the US Virgin Islands and ends at the western end of the Aleutians.

[BruceVC]

It is mind warming to see that all the super Christians and bible thumpers in US Senate and Congress are still willing stand behind Christian values like they are when it comes to subjects like marriage equality and having right to refuse service because of religious values

 

Im agnostic, I see no issue with ensuring better security. The reality is the Middle East and the AU need to take some responsibity for this mess....you cant always expect the West to solve these types of problems 

[Guard Dog]

Well, as far as the travel ban goes, the Trump administration is going to lose in court on that one. Wow, slapped down in court within the first two weeks. That has GOT to be a record.

Edited January 29, 2017 by Guard Dog

[Volourn]

 "This aside I personally have a huge disdain for nationalism and patriotism because I've experienced first-hand the effect it can have on the masses, and the way it can be used as an incredibly cheap and false rally cry."

 

I'm not huge on nationalism or wave flaggling (and my fellow Kanadians often hate on me for it). L0L IN fact, when it comes to Kanada in world hockey comps I'm usually hoping they lose because of how over the top arrogant my fellow Kanadians can be when it comes to the hockey. LMAO

 

 

"That's not quite how it works. If you have a family living and working in the US, in some of these examples for nearly a decade, and suddenly the father is deported back to some war torn country (which the US shares responsibility for it being war-torn to begin with.) That family may have just lost their breadwinner, the kids have lost their dad, their entire lives are flipped upside down. They probably aren't going to pack it up and go to a war-torn country, but you've now created a situation where those kids are incredibly vulnerable to extremist ideologies. The US is no longer the place they came for opportunity, it is the country that forced their father to leave and is filled with people who hate their way of life."

 

All I'm reading are excuses and cop outs for enabling people to juine a vile group. Would you defend the piece of crap who shot up the black church with the same kind of garbage? I'm sure he had all kinds of excuses and reasoning for his actions. That doesn't make what he did acceptable or proper. He is still a piece of crap. Again, no matter what Trump does, if you choose to join ISIS you are  apiece of crap. PERIOD.

 

Your logic is stupid. Let's follow the line of reasoning. Trump bans Muslims. You get mad at him for it... So.. your response is to join ISIS... a group that mass murders, mass rapes, mass enslaves Muslims. LOGIC. DOES. NOT. COMPUTE.

[Malcador]

Not the direct response, but it does make the pitch that "$country_name hates your religion!" sell a bit more.

[Volourn]

True. But, you don't join a group that enjoys killing Muslims in response...

[Katphood]

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/27/us/politics/trump-syrian-refugees.html

 

All these countries have ISIS groups, so its a valid preventative measure, are you worried this making the USA look bad ?

Iran does not have any "ISIS groups".

 

I support the USA in basically everything because it represents the foundation of Western ideology,

Right, like slavery for instance...

[Rosbjerg]

Im agnostic, I see no issue with ensuring better security. The reality is the Middle East and the AU need to take some responsibity for this mess....you cant always expect the West to solve these types of problems 

 

We have been bombing basically every country between Egypt, Turkey and Iran for the better part of 15 years now, along with much of the north coast of Africa.. and then we get surprised when people want to escape the lawless hellholes we helped create.

 

It's sobering to see just how irresponsible the West really is, the 20th century should have been lesson enough. I don't support or particularly like Russia's approach, but at least they seem to be working towards an end, rather than just 'bombing for the lulz' which most of the American led coalition (us included) have done for decades.

 

If you create a mess, you're damn well responsible for cleaning it up... At least in the house I grew up in. 

[algroth]

 "This aside I personally have a huge disdain for nationalism and patriotism because I've experienced first-hand the effect it can have on the masses, and the way it can be used as an incredibly cheap and false rally cry."

 

I'm not huge on nationalism or wave flaggling (and my fellow Kanadians often hate on me for it). L0L IN fact, when it comes to Kanada in world hockey comps I'm usually hoping they lose because of how over the top arrogant my fellow Kanadians can be when it comes to the hockey. LMAO

 

Trust me, being from Argentina I know the feeling. You can imagine the arrogance with which we come into every match in football.

[Volourn]

https://twitter.com/i/videos/tweet/825553821992509440?

[Hurlshort]

*snip*

 

Yeah, I'm not defending extremism, I was just explaining how it happens.