Politics 2016

[Zoraptor]

Russia bribed some Chechens to fight other Chechens who could not be bought- that is the secret of the 2nd Chechen War and the ongoing counter insurgency. It's also an ancient strategy used since earlier than the Roman Empire (eg a large proportion of the army Alexander fought at Granicus was actually Greek, not Persian, though it obviously wasn't a successful tactic there).

 

Chechnya is not really a good example as that was a fully fledged war with identified leaders instead of a few radicals hiding in a general population. Plus, everyone has been trying to kill Baghdadi/ 'Ibrahim' for 2 years and most have been trying to kill Zawahiri for longer without success; and despite Russian success in the conventional part of the Chechen War it's still an ongoing problem so far as terrorism goes. People would take Germany's terrorism problem over Russia's every day of the week.

[213374U]

They installed a government friendly to their interests through force of arms. 

 

That aside, because its not relevant to the topic, the likes of Zelimkhan Yandarbiyev, Dzhokhar Dudayev, Shamil Basayev and likely Dokka Umarov didn't get rid of themselves. Their "due process" was usually something exploding them to pieces.

So... you're suggesting that the German army should install a government friendly to German interests in Germany...? Okay boss. 

 

But I agree. A few extrajudicial killings by the FSB against the identified heads of a faction in a civil war after they were identified as actors in said war are not exactly relevant in a discussion regarding how to stop suspected jihadis before they can strike. I have a question, though. If it's irrelevant, why did you bring it up?

Edited December 21, 2016 by 213374U

[HoonDing]

Germany need their own Guantanamo, Peenemünde would be a good location.

[Wrath of Dagon]

So... you're suggesting that the German army should install a government friendly to German interests in Germany...?

Somebody should, would be a nice change.

 

Edit: Guantanamo Trump Grand Hotel is once again open for business in just about another month.

Edited December 21, 2016 by Wrath of Dagon

[213374U]

See, the positive thing about these attacks is that all the closet fascists come out of the woods.

[Meshugger]

Don't worry fellas, it's just an isolated incident. These new romans germans will succesfully integrate into Rome Germany. After all, the franks, goths and vandals the north african, middle eastern and sub-sahara african migrants are all fleeing their home countries for a better life and it is our duty to welcome them.

 

People are resources to expand productivity for the labor pool and to increase the market size first and foremost, stop imagining that they are vessels of culture, beliefs and customs. 

[Drowsy Emperor]

 

They installed a government friendly to their interests through force of arms. 

 

That aside, because its not relevant to the topic, the likes of Zelimkhan Yandarbiyev, Dzhokhar Dudayev, Shamil Basayev and likely Dokka Umarov didn't get rid of themselves. Their "due process" was usually something exploding them to pieces.

So... you're suggesting that the German army should install a government friendly to German interests in Germany...? Okay boss. 

 

But I agree. A few extrajudicial killings by the FSB against the identified heads of a faction in a civil war after they were identified as actors in said war are not exactly relevant in a discussion regarding how to stop suspected jihadis before they can strike. I have a question, though. If it's irrelevant, why did you bring it up?

 

 

The point is that there is always the same discussion.

 

Terrorist act happens in Europe. Suspect was known years in advance to security services. Then there is an inevitable excuse why the services could do nothing about it until the whole thing blew up. But that's just it, the excuses are garbage.

 

The could have outlawed salafism years ago, shut down the mosques, imprisoned those they have information on, deported them or, if all fails, just killed the worst of the lot. God knows history is full of all of this happening in "democratic" or "autocratic" states, regardless of the time and place. 

 

"Rule of law" and "due process" are so much bull**** - when states want someone gone, he's gone - the way the US straight up went to Pakistan and murdered Bin Laden. And the US is no more special than Russia or anyone else. And these are just the guys we know about because it was necessary to advertise their death for political reasons.

As long as it exists, political will trumps law every time.

 

The point is, there is no will in Europe to deal with this. It is persistently related to ordinary criminality instead of the flat out war that it is. Its always blamed on the unsolvable - ISIS, Al-Qaeda, some phantom somewhere that you can never defeat. All the while Bahrein, KSA, Qatar and the like legally pump millions into salafi training grounds in every European city and everybody pretends that there's nothing wrong. **** is so out of hand that the police don't even know what's happening in parts of Paris, Brussels, Sweden. They don't know, then they charge with SWAT squads to give the appearance that they have a handle on things - after someone has already died. A few months later, same thing happens again.

 

Closet fascism? What a joke!

 

I call it elementary patriotism. The state is there to protect and perpetuate the nation, not the other way around. What's the use of the state that is ready to sacrifice its own native population to pursue a destructive economic and socio-cultural experiment doomed to failure? 

How you see your state numbers man, I couldn't give less **** about but for mine, an untold number of people died to provide me what I have today. And I don't think it owes anybody other than those people and their descendants anything. Everybody else is a passerby, a guest, and if they don't like it - they can go somewhere else. 

Edited December 21, 2016 by Drowsy Emperor

[Chippy]

 

 

 I see that people who write those hateful comments always refer to refugees in general. That includes women, children and family men, who actually respect our laws instead of committing crimes. But that generalization makes less smart people think that refugees in general are the problem. Drive them all out or kill them all, and we can be save again.

The problem is, that our government isn't able to put our laws through. Punish the people who break those laws, and every innocent person can be happy. But that doesn't happen. Because our government, and there's the irony, is afraid to be called racist again, if they're too rough to the refugees and other immigrants. Rather let them get away with nearly everything, so other countries can't blame us for abusing foreingers. That's where the hate comes from. Yes, our government is very sensitive when it comes to dealing with immigrant criminals. It's always been like that. The problem has only worsened with all these refugees around. People are tired of that attitude. But instead of concentrating their hate on the culprit, the government, many turn against the refugees. Including the innocent ones. And that's what I don't like at all.

 

Very reasonable sentiment. Sadly, I can only see all of this going in a very bad direction. How bad it will be depends on how long this gets stretched out. Solutions that come sooner will be more pleasant than those that come later.

 

Then we better expect the worst.

 

Sympathies for the current situation in Germany.  Do you think that the German people will still vote for Angela Merkel?.

 

Edit: When I say the German people I mean all those that have all been residents of Germany prior to the migrant crisis and recent movement of people.

Edited December 21, 2016 by Chippy

[Wrath of Dagon]

I call it elementary patriotism. The state is there to protect and perpetuate the nation, not the other way around. What's the use of the state that is ready to sacrifice its own native population to pursue a destructive economic and socio-cultural experiment doomed to failure?

It can feel good about itself, that's the most important thing.

[HoonDing]

Violent immigrants are not needed. Homogenous native populations are already more than adequate to make life suitably miserable for everyone. Just look at Japan.

Edited December 21, 2016 by HoonDing

[Drowsy Emperor]

Violent immigrants are not needed. Homogenous native populations are already more than adequate to make life suitably miserable for everyone. Just look at Japan.

 

Fair point. Japan's miserable birth rates just prove that the current system is perfectly capable of eating itself out without internal or external enemies and that the problem runs deeper than Islam or migrants, or whatever. No dispute there.

Edited December 21, 2016 by Drowsy Emperor

[LittleRose]

*Sigh* I feel like I should say something about that escaped terrorist, but I'm still not done facepalming about our authorities' incompetence in this matter. I'm not sure if I should be really mad or just cry in desperation.

[LittleRose]

 

 

 

 I see that people who write those hateful comments always refer to refugees in general. That includes women, children and family men, who actually respect our laws instead of committing crimes. But that generalization makes less smart people think that refugees in general are the problem. Drive them all out or kill them all, and we can be save again.

The problem is, that our government isn't able to put our laws through. Punish the people who break those laws, and every innocent person can be happy. But that doesn't happen. Because our government, and there's the irony, is afraid to be called racist again, if they're too rough to the refugees and other immigrants. Rather let them get away with nearly everything, so other countries can't blame us for abusing foreingers. That's where the hate comes from. Yes, our government is very sensitive when it comes to dealing with immigrant criminals. It's always been like that. The problem has only worsened with all these refugees around. People are tired of that attitude. But instead of concentrating their hate on the culprit, the government, many turn against the refugees. Including the innocent ones. And that's what I don't like at all.

 

Very reasonable sentiment. Sadly, I can only see all of this going in a very bad direction. How bad it will be depends on how long this gets stretched out. Solutions that come sooner will be more pleasant than those that come later.

 

Then we better expect the worst.

 

Sympathies for the current situation in Germany.  Do you think that the German people will still vote for Angela Merkel?.

 

Edit: When I say the German people I mean all those that have all been residents of Germany prior to the migrant crisis and recent movement of people.

 

Some will vote for Merkel's CDU, others will vote for the AfD, which is even worse. Because those are the real racists and will do terrible things if they get enough power. We have more parties, though. I'm still trying to figure out the best alternative, but I don't have much hope for now. If only somebody stepped up with a reasonable plan. But that's unlikely. There are way too many cooks to spoil the soup, so the reasonable people don't get enough attention.

[Drowsy Emperor]

What will they do that's so terrible?

[Meshugger]

 

 

 

 

 I see that people who write those hateful comments always refer to refugees in general. That includes women, children and family men, who actually respect our laws instead of committing crimes. But that generalization makes less smart people think that refugees in general are the problem. Drive them all out or kill them all, and we can be save again.

The problem is, that our government isn't able to put our laws through. Punish the people who break those laws, and every innocent person can be happy. But that doesn't happen. Because our government, and there's the irony, is afraid to be called racist again, if they're too rough to the refugees and other immigrants. Rather let them get away with nearly everything, so other countries can't blame us for abusing foreingers. That's where the hate comes from. Yes, our government is very sensitive when it comes to dealing with immigrant criminals. It's always been like that. The problem has only worsened with all these refugees around. People are tired of that attitude. But instead of concentrating their hate on the culprit, the government, many turn against the refugees. Including the innocent ones. And that's what I don't like at all.

 

Very reasonable sentiment. Sadly, I can only see all of this going in a very bad direction. How bad it will be depends on how long this gets stretched out. Solutions that come sooner will be more pleasant than those that come later.

 

Then we better expect the worst.

 

Sympathies for the current situation in Germany.  Do you think that the German people will still vote for Angela Merkel?.

 

Edit: When I say the German people I mean all those that have all been residents of Germany prior to the migrant crisis and recent movement of people.

 

Some will vote for Merkel's CDU, others will vote for the AfD, which is even worse. Because those are the real racists and will do terrible things if they get enough power. We have more parties, though. I'm still trying to figure out the best alternative, but I don't have much hope for now. If only somebody stepped up with a reasonable plan. But that's unlikely. There are way too many cooks to spoil the soup, so the reasonable people don't get enough attention.

 

 

Since the other german guy at the board is for dissolving Germany entirely, i am curious about your thoughts. What do you think where Germany is going and what do you wish the future will be?

[213374U]

Closet fascism? What a joke!

 

I call it elementary patriotism. The state is there to protect and perpetuate the nation, not the other way around. What's the use of the state that is ready to sacrifice its own native population to pursue a destructive economic and socio-cultural experiment doomed to failure? 

How you see your state numbers man, I couldn't give less **** about but for mine, an untold number of people died to provide me what I have today. And I don't think it owes anybody other than those people and their descendants anything. Everybody else is a passerby, a guest, and if they don't like it - they can go somewhere else.

 

No, closet fascism is for those who don't flaunt it, I evidently didn't mean you.

 

Problem is, historically the state has been one of the biggest, if not the biggest threat to those living under it, rather than their protector. And you want to give it even more power to do what it does best, kill, supposedly to protect you from some phantom menace that is about as likely to affect you as a lightning strike.

 

See, the safeguards you see as "so much bull****" are there to protect you from the state, which is a much more ubiquitous and recurrent threat than "Islam". From those that historically have used political power to murder, imprison or ostracize massive amounts of people for arbitrary reasons. No, mate. Jihadis aren't going to "destroy teh west" or anything of the sort. If anything, I'm worried that you and the other useful idiots who believe that civil rights should be tossed aside at the first sight of an "existential threat" will end up destroying the defenses against state killings that have taken centuries and millions of deaths to establish.

 

"Elementary patriotism" my ass. Little tyrants-to-be and xenophobes everywhere have tried to hijack the idea of patriotism for themselves, trying to paint those who wouldn't buy their scare stories as unpatriotic. What you are is a card carrying fascist, buddy. At least be honest and admit that not only you would approve crushing those you deem a "threat" to "the nation", but also anyone who opposes that sort of thing. Because by virtue of opposing it, they become a threat in turn. That's how totalitarianism works, and you can't have one without the other.

Edited December 21, 2016 by 213374U

[Zoraptor]

Don't worry fellas, it's just an isolated incident. These new romans germans will succesfully integrate into Rome Germany. After all, the franks, goths and vandals the north african, middle eastern and sub-sahara african migrants are all fleeing their home countries for a better life and it is our duty to welcome them.

 

Bro, Rome successfully assimilated most of western and southern Europe, North Africa and the Middle East from the time of the Social War (~90BC) and it was a successful model up until... 370ish AD? Probably not the example you're looking for, really.

[Drowsy Emperor]

 

Closet fascism? What a joke!

 

I call it elementary patriotism. The state is there to protect and perpetuate the nation, not the other way around. What's the use of the state that is ready to sacrifice its own native population to pursue a destructive economic and socio-cultural experiment doomed to failure? 

How you see your state numbers man, I couldn't give less **** about but for mine, an untold number of people died to provide me what I have today. And I don't think it owes anybody other than those people and their descendants anything. Everybody else is a passerby, a guest, and if they don't like it - they can go somewhere else.

 

No, closet fascism is for those who don't flaunt it, I evidently didn't mean you.

 

Problem is, historically the state has been one of the biggest, if not the biggest threat to those living under it, rather than their protector. And you want to give it even more power to do what it does best, kill, supposedly to protect you from some phantom menace that is about as likely to affect you as a lightning strike.

 

See, the safeguards you see as "so much bull****" are there to protect you from the state, which is a much more ubiquitous and recurrent threat than "Islam". From those that historically have used political power to murder, imprison or ostracize massive amounts of people for arbitrary reasons. No, mate. Jihadis aren't going to "destroy teh west" or anything of the sort. If anything, I'm worried that you and the other useful idiots who believe that civil rights should be tossed aside at the first sight of an "existential threat" will end up destroying the defenses against state killings that have taken centuries and millions of deaths to establish.

 

"Elementary patriotism" my ass. Little tyrants-to-be and xenophobes everywhere have tried to hijack the idea of patriotism for themselves, trying to paint those who wouldn't buy their scare stories as unpatriotic. What you are is a card carrying fascist, buddy. At least be honest and admit that not only you would approve crushing those you deem a "threat" to "the nation", but also anyone who opposes that sort of thing. Because by virtue of opposing it, they become a threat in turn. That's how totalitarianism works, and you can't have one without the other.

 

 

So much verbiage, so little said. But then, thinking back, you don't actually have any solutions do you? All I've ever read from you is criticism. Everyone in favor of the nationalism is a "card carrying fascist", all the elites are "corrupt servants of corporate or foreign interests", the state is "the biggest threat to those living under it" - a dead end philosophy of either nihilism or implicit support for the status quo through inaction. No goals, no aims - not even the respectable commitment of the old left to fight and die for a new socialist or communist order. Not even ivory tower intellectualism, because even that can be productive in its own way. Just a permanent state of outrage.

 

Yes, I'm very well aware of what the state is and what it can be. I don't even care for the state, its just a means to an end. Nothing made by men can be perfect, but, down the line - if it has to exist, it has to serve those who created it as a bare minimum.

 

Nor do I care about Islam in the long term. Its just a nuisance, a painful reminder of how dysfunctional European society has become - that it has to scrape the bottom of the barrel of another civilization just to keep going.

 

So easy to pour burning oil on anyone who puts himself out there isn't it. But, where are your goals man? What do you even stand for?

Edited December 21, 2016 by Drowsy Emperor

[213374U]

So much verbiage, so little said. But then, thinking back, you don't actually have any solutions do you? All I've ever read from you is criticism. Everyone in favor of the nationalism is a "card carrying fascist", all the elites are "corrupt servants of corporate or foreign interests", the state is "the biggest threat to those living under it" - a dead end philosophy of either nihilism or implicit support for the status quo through inaction. No goals, no aims - not even the respectable commitment of the old left to fight and die for a new socialist or communist order. Not even ivory tower intellectualism, because even that can be productive in its own way. Just a permanent state of outrage.

 

[...]

 

So easy to pour burning oil on anyone who puts himself out there isn't it. But, where are your goals man? What do you even stand for?

 

Well, you got me. I'm in a permanent state of outrage. See that guy on the left? That's me reading the forum.

 

Seriously though, no. Not everyone in favor of nationalism is a fascist. The defining characteristic of fascism is the legitimization of the use of force as a tool to accomplish political goal X. This is directly at odds, fundamentally incompatible with the concept of an open society. Since opposition is going to arise to this (liberals, unions, minorities) they also must be crushed or the fascist grip on power is endangered. It is necessary therefore to suppress all political organizations save for the one in power. And bam! Single-party police state.

 

These are the implications of what you are suggesting when you propose that the government starts picking off possible or even likely terrorists, without respect for the rule of law. Because otherwise, in an open society, someone's going to find the skeletons in the closet sooner or later, and someone is going to end up in jail or dead as a result, as I explained before. There's also the itty-bitty downside that this strategy doesn't work as far as permanently solving issues is concerned.

 

What am I for? Nothing too fancy, really. An open, ideally stateless, moneyless society. Realistically speaking though, I'll settle for good, affordable education for everyone and an economic system that ensures that 99% of humankind aren't ****ing slaves with no prospect of a better life. I'm curious if working towards that, people will still want to kill each other for political goal X. They very well may want to, but I can't think of a reason why.

 

You're right, though. I have no grand plan, scientific solution or perfect vision. From what I've read, those tend to end up killing a bunch of people in the process of "fixing" the world, only to collapse catastrophically some time later, anyway. So I guess I'll just try to take responsibility for the personal choices I make, and try not to **** anyone over. Probably not what you'd like to hear, but hey, simple wishes from a simple man.

[Malcador]

See, the positive thing about these attacks is that all the closet fascists come out of the woods.

 

 

Thought it was closet sociologists.

[Wrath of Dagon]

 

Don't worry fellas, it's just an isolated incident. These new romans germans will succesfully integrate into Rome Germany. After all, the franks, goths and vandals the north african, middle eastern and sub-sahara african migrants are all fleeing their home countries for a better life and it is our duty to welcome them.

 

Bro, Rome successfully assimilated most of western and southern Europe, North Africa and the Middle East from the time of the Social War (~90BC) and it was a successful model up until... 370ish AD? Probably not the example you're looking for, really.

 

Rome successfully assimilated them by force. When it started relying on migrants to do the jobs Romans wouldn't do, it was the end of Rome.

[HoonDing]

Varangians and other migrants made the Byzantine Empire great.

[Zoraptor]

They conquered them by force (mostly), but they didn't assimilate them by force. The Empire had a few rules like 'no human sacrifice' but generally allowed conquered people to keep their own culture so long as they didn't fight Rome and paid their taxes etc. They'd (generally, again) lose their own culture fairly rapidly in any case, but such is the nature of assimilation. Their success was such that you had emperors from every corner of the Empire without anyone batting an eyelid- Hadrian was Spanish, Constantine was Thracian, Severus was African etc etc.

 

And I'm not quite sure which Roman Empire you're thinking of which didn't rely on 'migrants' to do the stuff Romans wouldn't; foreign slaves- by definition, since Roman citizens could not be enslaved- were doing the jobs Romans wouldn't do for multiple, multiple centuries prior to the collapse of the WRE.

[licketysplit]

Varangians and other migrants made the Byzantine Empire great.

 

Exactly. Immigrants can be utilized as an elite military force protecting God Emperor Trump. 

[Meshugger]

 

Don't worry fellas, it's just an isolated incident. These new romans germans will succesfully integrate into Rome Germany. After all, the franks, goths and vandals the north african, middle eastern and sub-sahara african migrants are all fleeing their home countries for a better life and it is our duty to welcome them.

 

Bro, Rome successfully assimilated most of western and southern Europe, North Africa and the Middle East from the time of the Social War (~90BC) and it was a successful model up until... 370ish AD? Probably not the example you're looking for, really.

 

 

It is the example that i am looking for actually. During the period that you mentioned had a failing economy, demographics and general trust in Rome, resulting Caesar (44BC) and finally Imperium (during which we saw the change of state religion and the transvalution of values) which will gradually collapse in itself.

 

It will probably happen faster this time though and it will of course not be exactly the same, but i am pointing out the same forces are at bay. Enjoy the ride.