Player returning from launch, wants basic info

[SamOftheUels]

Hi, so I played and loved this game at launch, only through once though as I had a backlog of other stuff to play, I'd really love to get back into this game, and have some proper run throughs and on harder difficulties.

 

I know there has been a lot of changes..so..

 

Can someone give me a basic rundown of each class, the state they're in, how they;re played, party set-ups and builds etc..

 

I'm not looking for too much info you don't need to go deep, but any info, I'd greatly appreciate.

 

Thanks

[JerekKruger]

That's a pretty huge question, I'd suggest narrowing it a little to get replies.

[Raven Darkholme]

What classes are you most interested in?

Every class is viable, rogue being a lot weaker than the rest of the cast but viable nonetheless.

[Dr <3]

Just read around the builds section, you will get all the info you May need

[Zmperion]

I think a big change (build-wise) is that perception no longer gives a deflection but a accuracy bonus. Its also wise to make your tanks NOT only dependent on high deflection. 

 

Also the use of skills like athletics and especially survival is different. Survival seems great because of the bonuses it provides on resting. The small heal athletics gives is nice in the beginning but less useful later on. 

[JerekKruger]

A big change that occurred in patch 2.0 was a change to enemy AI. Previously the AI would basically never break engagement, which meant that ideal strategy was to build a super tough Fighter tank with lots of engagement, send them into an encounter ahead of the rest of your group, then once engagement had been started the rest of your party could start doing their thing.

 

After 2.0 the AI would break engagement to attack weaker party members. I don't think the exact algorithm is known, but generally speaking the AI seems to weigh up a targets defences, proximity and damage output when deciding whether to break engagement. As such having a party of 5 glass cannons and 1 super tank no longer works that well, since the AI will ignore your low damage, high defence tank and go kill your glass cannons. Instead you want your tanks to do more than just soak damage (for Fighters this should be damage dealing, for Paladins it's buffing and for Chanters it's... well chanting) and you probably want at least one main tank and one off tank. You also probably no longer want to dump every defensive stat possible for non-tanking classes, in particular melee dps benefit from being built a bit more sturdily.

[the streaker]

What classes are you most interested in?

Every class is viable, rogue being a lot weaker than the rest of the cast but viable nonetheless.

 

What happened to rogue? It used to be the best single-target DPS and therefore very useful on a team.

[Boeroer]

It never was. It's a simple misconception. And now players finally realised that it's the weakest class in the game. That's also because some other classes got nice buffs and great new abilities with the expansions and rogues... only got crap. Rogues are only good at the beginning of the game.

Edited December 24, 2016 by Boeroer

[Elric Galad]

 

 

What classes are you most interested in?

Every class is viable, rogue being a lot weaker than the rest of the cast but viable nonetheless.

What happened to rogue? It used to be the best single-target DPS and therefore very useful on a team.

In addition to what Boeroer says, ranger and his pet were tremendously buffed. Ranger got an ability to shoot 2 arrows at once. Ranger and his pet currently do damages on par with melee Rogue in optimal conditions (deathblow). Pet is now quite sturdy and its master has nice crowd controls. Rogue don't have all this, can't do as much damages from distance and their positionning is risky.

 

Basically, ranger fills rogue role more reliably and with more utility.

 

Rogue is a one trick pony whose trick is equaled by an another class.

 

However, the gap is not that huge...

Edited December 24, 2016 by Elric Galad

[Boeroer]

Rogue with Deathblows and lots of spell bindings is really good though. Sneak Attack doesn't work with spells, but Deathblows do. So try to grab every piece of equipment with spells (Sun-Touched Mail, Amulet of Summer Solstice, Flames of Fair Rhian and so on).

But in terms of single target damage he's inferior to druid, ranger and later on also fighter (if the fighter is skilled for dps and has Charge). And you always have that fuzz with the afflictions and also have to be very careful so he doesn't get knocked out after being looked at.

Edited December 25, 2016 by Boeroer

[Dr <3]

This is my personal rogue guide:

Shapeshift druid ( i reached 230 DMG on w crit) >>> melee rogue

Ranger >>> ranged rogue

Everyone > defensive rogue

[Elric Galad]

Rogue with Deathblows and lots of spell bindings is really good though. Sneak Attack doesn't work with spells, but Deathblows do. So try to grab every piece of equipment with spells (Sun-Touched Mail, Amulet of Summer Solstice, Flames of Fair Rhian and so on).

But in terms of single target damage he's inferior to druid, ranger and later on also fighter (if the fighter is skilled for dps and has Charge). And you always have that fuzz with the afflictions and also have to be very careful so he doesn't get knocked out after being looked at.

 

I'm currently tending to think Fighter would make an overall better scroll and charge item users (even if inferior for pure damages). Disciplined Barrage has crazy potential with Paralysis or Confusion scrolls. 

I'm currently planning such a Build for my next run ^^

[Boeroer]

I don't know. Double damage with spells is more powerful than more ACC in this case, because as a rogue you can always use a Scroll of Valor or a Potion of Eldritch Aim and nearly get the same ACC as a fighter, but a fighter can never get +100% damage with spells. The rogue can have additional hit to crit conversion, too. And he has Deep Wounds which work with all spells (also AoE) that do crush, pierce or slash damage - like Bounding Missiles or whatever. Besides Disciplined Barrage the fighter has no talent or ability that boosts spells directly, except maybe Confident Aim.

For spell bindings which don't have anything to do with damage a fighter might be better though - for example Whisper of Treason.

[Elric Galad]

I don't know. Double damage with spells is more powerful than more ACC in this case, because as a rogue you can always use a Scroll of Valor or a Potion of Eldritch Aim and nearly get the same ACC as a fighter, but a fighter can never get +100% damage with spells. The rogue can have additional hit to crit conversion, too. And he has Deep Wounds which work with all spells (also AoE) that do crush, pierce or slash damage - like Bounding Missiles or whatever. Besides Disciplined Barrage the fighter has no talent or ability that boosts spells directly, except maybe Confident Aim.

For spell bindings which don't have anything to do with damage a fighter might be better though - for example Whisper of Treason.

 

Sure, though instant-cast no-ressource +20 Acc is great, rogue has probably better potential.

However, Deathblow is not that easy to trigger. Well, it's not hard neither but it's probably won't be up 100% of time.

To be honnest, my idea was that fighter can do this job in a more convenient and reliable way for my own tastes.

 

After all, "reliable" is fighter's second name.

 

Basically my idea was to use items like White Crest (and Swaddling Sheet).

Even 1 per rest, the idea of a 30+20 "base" Acc Overwhelming Wave feels pretty crazy. Especially because positionning a Fighter on a frontline wearing a Full Plate is far easier than doing it with a Rogue.

I'll try and share my results ^^

[Phenomenum]

It never was. It's a simple misconception. And now players finally realised that it's the weakest class in the game. That's also because some other classes got nice buffs and great new abilities with the expansions and rogues... only got crap. Rogues are only good at the beginning of the game

My rogue disagree with you)

Level 13, White Elf

Name: Velia

Stats (with armor & items): 18-7-20-20-6-19

Weapons: Purgatory + Bittercut/Ravenwing+exeptional mace

Knockdown: 16 times

Total damage taken: 11 758

Total damage done: 113 401

Hits: 2003

Critical Hits: 1564

Max damage: 199

Total mobs defeated: 695

Game progress: Act 1+2 (unfinished), MW 1, Od Nua, now in Cragholdt bluffs

Best DD ever - deals nearly every fight in 10-15 seconds.

Difficulty: PotD, of course

Edited December 27, 2016 by Phenomenum

[Boeroer]

I don't want to sound c0cky, but your rogue disagrees about what?

 

Those stats only prove what I said. Compare your "max damage" to a solid shapeshifting druid who will deliver crits above 200 dmg regularly. And compare your "total damage done" to a HoF-barbarian or a monk. Both will laugh at the total damage done.

 

I have two screenshots here from my last playthrough with the Golden Dragon build (barbarian tank, not optimized for damage - since he's a tank) and an unarmed shapeshifting druid (boar, focused on survivability rather than highest possible dps):

 

 

Those are lvl 16 though. But they are just two examples from one of my playthroughs where I didn't even focus on damage dealing. I even looked up my Counselor Ploi's stats (pure supporter paladin, totally not dps oriented) and even he has a higher max damage value. My melee priest in that run has "only" around 100 max damage hit, but his overall damage is way higher than the rogues (with very few crits). As you can see, theay are all better in their own ways while contributing to the party's performance in so many other ways at the same time: tanking, supporting, buffing, CC. And all of them provide a lot of survivability - I'm pretty sure they are way better at staying alive than any rogue. The rogue can only deal single target damage - and even at that he's bested. That's sad. I would like the rogue to be better.

 

Some damage dealing things don't even get logged - like ranger's animal companions or chanters' Dragon Thrashed. If you count ranger+pet as one char, they also clrealy win against any rogue. The rogue is not the best single target damage dealer nor is he best at anything else - except hurling AoE spells with Deathblows - which is quite funny. They need a complete overhaul in my opinion. Either give them better single target damage without all that affliction fuzz (something around poison maybe or special talents/abilites around short blades or allow then to re-enter stealth?) or give them more AoE possibilites.  

Edited December 27, 2016 by Boeroer

[Phenomenum]

"I don't want to sound c0cky, but your rogue disagrees about what?" - about weakest class cliche)

"Both will laugh at the total damage done." - you forgot about game progress, i beat just half of the game, or maybe less. So, it will be close to your examples if i'll beat Act 2 + Act 3 + WM2 + other sidequests.
To be clear, i'm not telling that Rogue is "best DPS class in the game" - they have some "pro" & "contra", like any other class in the game. That's it. Class effectiveness depends more of playstyle, neither of class abilities itself - barbarians and monks are not my best friends, for example, i don't know how to play with this guys

Edited December 27, 2016 by Phenomenum

[Elric Galad]

Well, there have been a ton of discussions about which class is balanced or not for a bunch of time.

The point with Rogue is that they don't have enough Pros to make up for their Cons.

 

Boeroer himself has been a great advocate that the right builds and fitting your playstyle is more important than the raw power of a class.

 

However, for me the general consensus about endgame class balance has been the following (which seems to be not only my opinion, but what is heard the most frequently) :

- Vancians are a bit Overpowered when Rest Spamming OR during Boss Fight (where you've usually freshly rested).

- Priest are hard to replace, but are totally replaceable.

- Rogue is a bit behind the other classes, for the reasons stated above. Patch 3.04 reduced the gap, but not enough. 

- All classes are currently far more balanced than in the beginning, and the gap between classes is not that big.

 

Side note about Rogue : Early game, they are really great as #1 Single Target DPS, rivalled only by Druid. However, given the tediousness of early encounters, Spiritshift is likely to not last long enough. Rangers don't have all their goodies early game. It's true many people (including me) focus on endgame, and forget how great is Rogue's early Game.

 

 

Increasing Rogue's Single Target DPS a bit more (endgame) would be good.

But they don't need that much to be great.

In my opinion, Rogue's emphasize on Spike Single Target using dirty tricks (like Backstab, Feint, Poison, Combos) would be better than adding AoE capabilities (which other classes already do).

Edited December 27, 2016 by Elric Galad

[mosspit]

Feel rogues are weak? You can thank some of the posters from before that were raving about how powerful rogues are, especially in the single target department. I seem to remember at least 2 discussions with some strongly opinionated posters who were adamant about the strength of rogues while concurrently bashing other classes like barbs as subpar. Don't think they are actively posting already though.

 

So somehow the developers took up the comments and when WM1 and 2 content came around, we have skills for rogues that aren't exactly dps oriented. Even the clearly offensive skill like Sap is not good. From what I remembered, the earlier skills like Blind Strike were full attacks and when Sap came around, it was just a primary weapon attack. The other WM skills were more about survivability and not that strong nor direct for dps.

 

On the other hand, the other classes got buffs. Druids shapeshift used to suck and subsequently was patched. I believed it was level scaling and dmg? Ranger pets got a well needed level scaling effectiveness ON TOP of good WM dps skills. Barbs has HoF become per encounter with decent WM skills.... you get the idea. So I guess these also contribute to the state of rogues?

Edited December 28, 2016 by mosspit

[the streaker]

It never was. It's a simple misconception. And now players finally realised that it's the weakest class in the game. That's also because some other classes got nice buffs and great new abilities with the expansions and rogues... only got crap. Rogues are only good at the beginning of the game.

The first part is definitely not it, because back when the game came out, people did the calcs (spreadsheets, etc), comparing rogue to ranger and other classes, and single-target DPS nothing beat a backstabbing melee rogue. You just needed to expend a lot of time and effort maneuvering him into the right position. I think it's the last part of your post - Druids and other classes must have gotten big boosts (druids used to be mid-tier) while rogues stayed where they were. And if they boosted rangers to do as much damage from range as rogues can do from melee, that pretty much puts rogue out of a job...

Edited December 28, 2016 by the streaker

[Boeroer]

It may have been that the rogue was the best single target damage dealer when all circumstances were perfect (afflictions were up, not too many enemies attacking him and so on) but most of the time you had to invest a ton of micromanagement to keep him alive and at the same time make sure that there was one or two afflictions (that don't suppress each other) which would trigger sneak attack and deathblows.

 

Backstab isn't and never was a big dps boost. In the early days it was even weaker than today (only +100% base weapon dmg instead of 150%) and you had really bad stealth mechanics (party unstealthed completely, only 2 invisibility uses per rest).

 

It's true that the classes that outperform him now in terms of single target damage were not as good back in the days. Ranger's pets were weak, druid's spiritshift also. But still: after a complete playthrough on PoTD (rogues feel more powerful at lower difficulties, I'll give them that) you had the feeling that it would have been easier if you just had dumped the effing rogue and hired some other class. Most of the time my rogues were not leading in damage output - only in hit/crit ratio.

[Elric Galad]

Well, for me, it's normal if a rogue don't lead in total damage output compared to AoE damage dealer.

I can't see a rogue getting more kills than a (Dragon Slashed) chanter.

 

But they should be the best for priority target elimination, as it is the purpose of Single Target damage dealer.