The US Election 2016, Part IX

[Meshugger]

 

Why would you inject that video in this thread?

You right, I didnt explain the relevance to this thread

 

I wanted to say at the moment there are several global populist movements in most countries. What is relevant to all of us who live in Western countries is these populist movements are  something that manifests itself in our countries in different forms and creates degrees of chaos, anxiety and sometimes depression or concern for the future

 

What I wanted to highlight is this whole USA election and the general levels of frustration from many of US forum friends is understandable ....but imagine living in SA, you have people believing you can recreate science in an African prism because the current education system isnt designed with an African consideration and doesn't represent " South African values " 

 

 

Its nonsense of course 

 

 

Uh, branding every emerging movement as populist will bite you in the ass in the long. Putting the arise with Duterte in the Philippines with South African blacks claiming that witchdoctor ju-ju belongs in the university curriculum is superficial at best.

[BruceVC]

So a lot of people not only here in USA but all over the world is tired of the NWO politics that is trying to inject into every country....

 

TBH I think a lot of places need a revolution and burn their place to the ground so that something new, not old or present can raise up. Why force what they don't want down their throats? Let them have the freedom to chose and win/lose on their own.

We need something new, because the old and what we have presently isn't cutting it.

We haven't had a good plague or world war to thin out the numbers and rotate ideology of the people up top for a hot min.

Let Mother Gaea break out the knife and do a nice trim and wash it all away.

Cthulhu

 

Its funny because your general view of " We need something new, because the old and what we have presently isn't cutting it " it is something many people throughout the world believe but the truth is the system doesnt mean to be destroyed, that wouldnt help

 

We just need to make some structural changes to be more ....inclusive?

 

 

Why would you inject that video in this thread?

You right, I didnt explain the relevance to this thread

 

I wanted to say at the moment there are several global populist movements in most countries. What is relevant to all of us who live in Western countries is these populist movements are  something that manifests itself in our countries in different forms and creates degrees of chaos, anxiety and sometimes depression or concern for the future

 

What I wanted to highlight is this whole USA election and the general levels of frustration from many of US forum friends is understandable ....but imagine living in SA, you have people believing you can recreate science in an African prism because the current education system isnt designed with an African consideration and doesn't represent " South African values " 

 

 

Its nonsense of course 

 

 

Uh, branding every emerging movement as populist will bite you in the ass in the long. Putting the arise with Duterte in the Philippines with South African blacks claiming that witchdoctor ju-ju belongs in the university curriculum is superficial at best.

 

 

Well if you can name just one populist movement that we have seen in the last 10 years and has   made a meaningful difference to the world and should have been implemented in some way please let me know?

 

Im not automatically anti-populist movements its just they all seem to lack depth or actual substantive ways to makw them viable...they normally about emotions?

[Meshugger]

I said emerging movement, your definitions are too imprecise.

[Volourn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RFGNYHzoXI

[BruceVC]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RFGNYHzoXI

Just because an African American says " Trump should get elected "  that doesnt mean he is right but I watched that  criticism of Obama and it is unfounded and based on this false narrative that some people assumed just because Obama is black he would only be concerned with the issues of AA

 

Its like when he first came on a tour to Africa and made his famous speech which wasnt well received by some African leaders because some African dictators assumed Obama would be nice to them because they black

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/12/world/africa/12prexy.html?_r=0

[BruceVC]

I said emerging movement, your definitions are too imprecise.

Examples?

[redneckdevil]

I think it's more along the lines of world wide jet lag. A world wide "**** Everything right now, let me relax". Usually what we have done/learned/created/etc in the past 30+ years usually gradually seeps in over a much longer period of time. It's like teaching kindergarteners basic math all the way to calculus in their first year without nap times or weekends off or summer breaks. It can be done but there's a reason why knowledge is spread out over a period of time instead of mass amount crammed in short period of time.

We need a nice long summer break.

 

I say break/burn it down and keep what's most important, the core ideals and values and build up something new from there. Right now we got to much waste/conflict built in structure and foundation.

Edited October 21, 2016 by redneckdevil

[Volourn]

"Just because an African American says " Trump should get elected "  that doesnt mean he is right but I watched that  criticism of Obama and it is unfounded and based on this false narrative that some people assumed just because Obama is black he would only be concerned with the issues of AA

 

Its like when he first came on a tour to Africa and made his famous speech which wasnt well received by some African leaders because some African dictators assumed Obama would be nice to them because they black"

 

Are you whitesplaining to a black guy that he is stupid because he won't follow your  mantra? Typical white Afrikan.

[Raithe]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdBF6h7oH5I

[HoonDing]

"Typical white Afrikan"

 

Bruce is Boer but poses as English descendant

[BruceVC]

 

No that type of " anti-white"..." anti-European " perspective represents about 20 % of the students. Its normal in SA, I debate people who think that everyday

 

You cant get annoyed if you live here by that type of event....if you did you may be annoyed all the time

Bruce please trust me. You will fail. Just on the basis of you being white and representing white people mentality.

 

Try not to listen what they are saying but what they mean by it. If you want to reach them you need to encourage black SA to oppose their view, but they cannot just emulate white mentality and argumentation. They need to approach those guys with black mentality and their argumentation need to come from their roots and culture.

 

 

Its an interesting question you have asked, no one has ever asked me that before on these forums  

 

So my commitment to the new South Africa is complicated to explain but just to answer your question. The objective really is for everyone to finish grade 12 and then get a degree or equivalent certification so they can work in corporate and the private sector  ....but only about 20 % of all black students get to this point

 

Most black students drop out and never complete university but I cant help them. The reasons for this failure is varied but I cant help them. 

"Typical white Afrikan"

 

Bruce is Boer but poses as English descendant

There is a distinction, its not a big deal outside SA but matters to me 

 

Boer\Afrikaans people are white South Africans but I'm English. The architects of Apartheid were all Afrikaans ....as an English South African we did other things like Colonialism but I am not taking blame for Apartheid 

[redneckdevil]

Why take the blame for colonization? I don't feel like it's my fault for what happened to the Indians and I don't hold the British to putting my Irish family as slaves.

That's the past. If u didn't personally do it, then don't take the blame for it. Your not to blame.

[Hurlshort]

Why take the blame for colonization? I don't feel like it's my fault for what happened to the Indians and I don't hold the British to putting my Irish family as slaves.

That's the past. If u didn't personally do it, then don't take the blame for it. Your not to blame.

 

Empathy is a thing, though.  The world you live in is the result of history.  If you can't see that the American Indians got an incredibly raw deal, and they are still struggling because of it, that's not good.  Doesn't mean you need to hang your head about it all day long, but it also seems pretty bad to just write it off as ancient history.     

[Dainalt]

 

Why take the blame for colonization? I don't feel like it's my fault for what happened to the Indians and I don't hold the British to putting my Irish family as slaves.

That's the past. If u didn't personally do it, then don't take the blame for it. Your not to blame.

 

Empathy is a thing, though.  The world you live in is the result of history.  If you can't see that the American Indians got an incredibly raw deal, and they are still struggling because of it, that's not good.  Doesn't mean you need to hang your head about it all day long, but it also seems pretty bad to just write it off as ancient history.

 

[redneckdevil]

 

 

Why take the blame for colonization? I don't feel like it's my fault for what happened to the Indians and I don't hold the British to putting my Irish family as slaves.

That's the past. If u didn't personally do it, then don't take the blame for it. Your not to blame.

Empathy is a thing, though. The world you live in is the result of history. If you can't see that the American Indians got an incredibly raw deal, and they are still struggling because of it, that's not good. Doesn't mean you need to hang your head about it all day long, but it also seems pretty bad to just write it off as ancient history.

No, it means I can sympathize with the Indians and feel bad just like I can anyone who's down on their luck or going thru hard times....but I don't BLAME myself for their position.

[BruceVC]

Why take the blame for colonization? I don't feel like it's my fault for what happened to the Indians and I don't hold the British to putting my Irish family as slaves.

That's the past. If u didn't personally do it, then don't take the blame for it. Your not to blame.

Oh I must clarify that colonization comment, I absolutely accept the role the UK played as a Colonial power but I dont feel guilty about what my ancestors did. The UK for example has done much more good than bad in the world and thats what matters 

 

So I can share something with you that I have learnt that has allowed me to understand and rationalize many of the issues and expectations from black South Africans. This understanding I have gained has been critical in allowing me  to be part of the new SA without taking things personally.  Now what I have come to realize is many of  you guys in the USA are grappling with these same issues,many people on this forum who live in the USA have expressed degrees  of frustration or depression about where they perceive the USA is going 

 

Now just to be clear I have never mentioned this before because I thought this was uniquely a South African\African  problem and until recently most people on this forum didnt appear interested in having this type of debate

 

Now before I go into detail I need to clarify one or two things about who this applies to, let me know if this is applicable to you

 

• You are a white person who feels you are getting blamed for certain social and or political events that you have no influence over
• You feel there is a degree of double standards from minorities and how they blame certain events on
• You are really uncertain and worried about the future

 

Also I dont mean to pick on certain members but if you want to have this debate in good faith  you cannot have a posting etiquette like 

 

• volo when we discuss certain issue, I always try to respond to him but his comments are irrational and illogical 
• LK, its impossible to tell him anything because he has convinced himself his long posts are reflections of reality. This is not LK fault but its a symptom of someone who has basically spend too much time engaging people on the Internet and has forgotten normal human interaction

 

Also this is not about intelligence, so don't think I am suggesting I think I am cleverer than you guys. This is just about an important insight into some global and local trends that I have noticed are common in most Western countries like the USA

 

So if you want to have this debate do you mind just summarizing how you feel about the current state of the USA...be honest there is no right or wrong response

[redneckdevil]

I think a big issue we in USA is having right now is that we are having some problems but in trying to "fix" the problems we are laying the blame on someone else. We WANT to fix these problems but we can't accept the fact that it maybe our fault or hell NO ONE's fault but we are having to blame someone other than ourselves or recognize that no one maybe at fault or it's just how it's going right now due to someone's decisions that was made before any of us was alive.

We have all become "VICTIMS".

Edited October 22, 2016 by redneckdevil

[BruceVC]

I think a big issue we in USA is having right now is that we are having some problems but in trying to "fix" the problems we are laying the blame on someone else. We WANT to fix these problems but we can't accept the fact that it maybe our fault or hell NO ONE's fault but we are having to blame someone other than ourselves or recognize that no one maybe at fault or it's just how it's going right now due to someone's decisions that was made before any of us was alive.

We have all become "VICTIMS".

This is a good response and it ties into my broader point but just to clarify some things you mentioned, please go into more detail in the following

 

• What do you think are the main problems people want to fix
• Who is raising these problems 
• In what way do you feel the outcome results in people feeling they victims 

[Meshugger]

 

Why take the blame for colonization? I don't feel like it's my fault for what happened to the Indians and I don't hold the British to putting my Irish family as slaves.

That's the past. If u didn't personally do it, then don't take the blame for it. Your not to blame.

 

Empathy is a thing, though.  The world you live in is the result of history.  If you can't see that the American Indians got an incredibly raw deal, and they are still struggling because of it, that's not good.  Doesn't mean you need to hang your head about it all day long, but it also seems pretty bad to just write it off as ancient history.     

 

 

In SA though, they seem to burn history instead: http://www.economist.com/news/middle-east-and-africa/21693278-students-are-throwing-colonial-art-pyre-whiteness-burning

[Meshugger]

Well, would you look at that. Bruce turned a thread about the US election into one about SA. Well done!

[BruceVC]

 

 

Why take the blame for colonization? I don't feel like it's my fault for what happened to the Indians and I don't hold the British to putting my Irish family as slaves.

That's the past. If u didn't personally do it, then don't take the blame for it. Your not to blame.

 

Empathy is a thing, though.  The world you live in is the result of history.  If you can't see that the American Indians got an incredibly raw deal, and they are still struggling because of it, that's not good.  Doesn't mean you need to hang your head about it all day long, but it also seems pretty bad to just write it off as ancient history.     

 

 

In SA though, they seem to burn history instead: http://www.economist.com/news/middle-east-and-africa/21693278-students-are-throwing-colonial-art-pyre-whiteness-burning

 

 

This article made me laugh, its true but it needs some context and its hard to explain to people living outside SA

 

So the reality is simple, the majority of black students who damage property and destroyed so called paintings and made comments like 

 

" symbols of the coloniser"  dont have an understanding of history or what is really significant. Most of them sadly wont make it past first year 

 

These " down with whiteness " comments are just rhetoric, you dont take it seriously because its irrelvat to the reality of what matters in any country where we need to build the economy 

 

Trust me, I share much more entertaining things than that ...check this out populist movement 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_First_Land_First

 

 

Read there manifesto 

[aluminiumtrioxid]

I think a big issue we in USA is having right now is that we are having some problems but in trying to "fix" the problems we are laying the blame on someone else. We WANT to fix these problems but we can't accept the fact that it maybe our fault or hell NO ONE's fault but we are having to blame someone other than ourselves or recognize that no one maybe at fault or it's just how it's going right now due to someone's decisions that was made before any of us was alive.

We have all become "VICTIMS".

 

I think you're grievously misunderstanding the people you seem to be arguing against here.

[BruceVC]

 

I think a big issue we in USA is having right now is that we are having some problems but in trying to "fix" the problems we are laying the blame on someone else. We WANT to fix these problems but we can't accept the fact that it maybe our fault or hell NO ONE's fault but we are having to blame someone other than ourselves or recognize that no one maybe at fault or it's just how it's going right now due to someone's decisions that was made before any of us was alive.

We have all become "VICTIMS".

 

I think you're grievously misunderstanding the people you seem to be arguing against here.

 

No alum, this is different and relevant. I know you are very good at assessing sophistry on these forums and normally you are right....but you also good at understanding much of someone like Meshuggers discombobulation when he makes some of his almost artistic comments

 

I like debating Meshugger but sometimes I have no clue what he is talking about and frankly I have no interest in looking up words that are part of the whole Internet vernacular that you guys use I ask people to make a point in plain English 

 

Anyway this unhappiness in the USA is not what you think, its real but not very well explained or understood. I dont mean Trump supporters....they have become like this cult of ignorant and unquestioning  zealots....they dont care what Trump says or how he comes across....they dont care. Its a very bizarre and invidious reality to accept if you live in the USA. Yes they about 35 % of the white population but thats a large number

 

Anyway I mean other non-Trump supporters 

Edited October 22, 2016 by BruceVC

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

 

I think a big issue we in USA is having right now is that we are having some problems but in trying to "fix" the problems we are laying the blame on someone else. We WANT to fix these problems but we can't accept the fact that it maybe our fault or hell NO ONE's fault but we are having to blame someone other than ourselves or recognize that no one maybe at fault or it's just how it's going right now due to someone's decisions that was made before any of us was alive.

We have all become "VICTIMS".

 

I think you're grievously misunderstanding the people you seem to be arguing against here.

 

 

No alum, this is different and relevant.

 

 

I have a hard time treating the stance of anybody who seems to be incapable of grasping the concept of "it is possible to acknowledge that certain segments of society are benefiting from social structures that have their origin in deeply unsavory historical events without holding the very same people personally responsible for those events" as "different and relevant".

[Volourn]

Look at that. A SJW NAzi  playing the 'white male privledge' card  without actually stating the fact.  Yeah, all white males  are relaxing on a huge ship sourrounded by hot ladies   who they can oogle drinking as much boozed as they want with no cares in the world and they do this all because   someone remotely  related to them years ago did horrible things. COME ON.

 

I will not apologize for crimes I never commited.  Don't like it too damn bad. I'm no more irresponsible for slavery or what happened to the Indians than I would be if my father  wasa going around killing people to day. I would fell bad for the victims but I sure wouldn't apologize for something I had no part in. CAPICHE? CAPICHE.

 

 

Unless you think  black Afrikans whose ancestors were amongst the warlords who sold salves to the Europeans should also apologize and feel guilty for their crimes? COME ON.

Edited October 22, 2016 by Volourn