Reload Weapons are pretty Crap?

[Livegood118]

Hi all,

 

Given that we're expecting the very last patch of the game relatively soon, I thought that if devs were willing to look at Sabres being OP in relation to other 1H weapons that they might also be willing to look at the role of weapons with reload frames and how they compare with other non-reload ranged weapons.

 

The weapons that fall in to this category are as follows: Crossbows, Arbalests, Pistols, Blunderbusses and Arquebuses.

 

Outside of the early/early-mid game I find that these weapons very quickly fall out of favour compared to their no-reload counterparts as characters are eventually able to stack recovery bonuses which greatly increase firing speed while there are very few ways to reduce reload time.

 

I'm not really a maths guy so I can only speak from personal experience, but I find that the use case for these kinds of weapons as the game goes on doesn't really go that much beyond quickswitch tactics. Blunderbuss may perform differently under certain high DR penetration set-ups, but I haven't had much experience myself.

 

Some potential solutions might be as follows:

 

1) Increase the base damage of all reload weapons (this'll probably only drive the use of them more towards quickswitching)

2) Reduce the overall amount of reload frames for reload weapons

3) Buff the gunner talent

4) Adjust the accuracy penalty on these weapons

5) Introduce/modify a few items to make them "gunner" friendly

 

Personally, I would buff gunner to 40% and maybe add some gloves to the game that reduce reload speed by 10%-15%, and then maaaaaybe reduce swift aim bonus to like 1.3 so they don't become completely OP on rangers, and it's not so much of a loss on a ranger if they want to use powder burns.

 

This way, each average character in the game could make use of reload weapons under the right set-up and I think it would increase build variety a bit.

 

If we get some good discussion going/hard figures maybe we could show the devs.

 

Edit: poll added!

Edited October 17, 2016 by Livegood118

[Kaylon]

A simple solution would be to make all the speed buffs affect also the reload times (like Swift Aim does).

Edited October 17, 2016 by Kaylon

[Livegood118]

A simple solution would be to make all the speed buffs affect also the reload times (like Swift Aim does).

I think this could work, but I probably wouldn't make them on par with recovery because that could get OP – maybe .5/.4

[limaxophobiacq]

Firearms in PoE are only really good for shooting once and switching to another weapon once you're past early levels. As such they're decent for Rogues, since Rogues focus on making a few big damage attacks (but then ranged Rogues aren't really that great), Ciphers who shoot once for focus, or Paladins who shoot once with FoD and switch. For rangers Powder Burns is just bad compared to Twin Arrows with a good magic bow.

 

Attack Speed stacking being really powerfull and firearms not being able to take much advantage of it is also a problem. Durganised Godagh Field + DAoM for 0 recovery stacked with Twin Arrows lets you shoot about 8 arrows for every shot you'd get with an Arquebus even with Durgan + DAoM + Gunner, the higher per shot damage from firearms doesn't make up for it at all. Not to talk about  how much better the much higher fire rate is if you're applying status effects on hits.

Edited October 17, 2016 by limaxophobiacq

[limaxophobiacq]

 

A simple solution would be to make all the speed buffs affect also the reload times (like Swift Aim does).

I think this could work, but I probably wouldn't make them on par with recovery because that could get OP – maybe .5/.4

 

 

I don't think so. Reload speed reduction works differently from Attack Speed reduction mechanically (or so I've been told). If you get +100% attack speed you get no recovery time but +100% reload speed would get you halved reload time, and even +200% reload speed would 'only' get you to 1/3 reload time.

[Boeroer]

Since there's Quick Switch and Arms Bearer I'm ok with the reload time. They could give them a bit more damage though. Or they could give bows a short reload phase. I mean why not. They have to be "reloaded" after all - even if it takes only a fraction of time you need to reload a crossbow or even a muzzleloader. Then implements would also be a true alternative to bows for non-wizards.

[Jojobobo]

As someone who played solo with only guns - I'm not really sure. I kind of appreciate how such a long reload cycle makes them more or less historically accurate to our world's standards, however I do think there's something lacking. I've never really seen an NPC Wizard use Arcane Veil, so the whole "they pierce the Arcane Veil" schtick doesn't seem worth much.

 

I guess buffing Gunner, decreasing reload slightly in general, or letting any speed enchantments (as Kaylon said) effect reload might make guns more of an appealing option. It is worth pointing out that some guns still are very good (Silver Flash I would say still stands out, as it casts the decent damage Divine Mark very regularly which negates the Blunderbuss accuracy penalty and also blinds groups).

 

I still think their principle usage should be quick switch with a set of them, like how traditional pirates would carry several pistols pre-loaded purely so they wouldn't have to reload, but that doesn't mean the reload cycle currently isn't also overly punitive.

Edited October 17, 2016 by Jojobobo

[Boeroer]

Really? When I try to kill enemy wizards in bounties or at Crägholt Bluffs they always annoy the hell out of me with that fricking Arcane Veil. I just walk away then and come back when it wears off.

Edited October 17, 2016 by Boeroer

[Jojobobo]

It could be that on that build I sometimes targeted the melee mobs hitting my lower Deflection first (thereby blinding them and making the situation better), but on the whole no I really don't remember seeing it that much at all. Regardless, to me it still screams situational compared to other weapon bonuses - arbalest prone on crit is a much more ubiquitous benefit for example.

[K Galen B]

I wouldn't go so far as to say they need rebalancing. They could use a few things to make them more interesting choices for building around, though:

 

1) Speed buffs not affecting reload at all is a bit silly.

2) The game needs at least one more unique arbalest.

3) Powder burns might or might not need to be improved even after the 3.04 bugfix. Not entirely sure how it works - I only tested it casually.

 

Overall I like the way firearms actually feel like firearms in this game. They aren't just a slow, high-damage bow or crossbow. Crossbows and especially arbalests end up kinda bland and weak (except Twin Sting) but that's nothing too unusual for this kind of RPG. Kinda difficult to differentiate a bunch of projectile weapons that all rely on the good ole' "put a leak in the flesh bag" principle.

Edited October 17, 2016 by K Galen B

[Raven Darkholme]

I voted no, because reload weapons are fine if you switch.

It was mentioned in another recent thread, that using several loaded weapons after another is historical correct and reloading on a battlefield was a dumb idea in real life history.

Apart from that using 3 weapon slots, 2 guns and 1 bow is an ideal way to use a cipher, using a gun for FoD on paladin is as awesome and I'm sure there are other applications like the already mentioned rogue.

If something is to weak it doesn't get used, I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who heavily relies on guns in this game.

[Boeroer]

Playing a island aumua wizard with 4 blunderbusses, Quick Switch, Combusting Wounds and Expose Vulnerabilites atm. I'm at lvl 16, he's awesome!

[Jojobobo]

Glad you followed that idea through, sounds like a great character build.

 

It was mentioned in another recent thread, that using several loaded weapons after another is historical correct and reloading on a battlefield was a dumb idea in real life history.

Well for the most part this is true, but for the later medieval warfare wikipedia kindly tells me Redcoats were able to reload 4 times a minute. I think it's the purpose of fantasy games to retain realism while being fun to play, making guns reload at as fast as a slightly later stage of technological advancement may be more rewarding - after all even though people enjoy grounded fantasy more liberties can be taken in the sake of fun, especially when the kind of liberties taken in such a rigorously mechanical system as Pillars are never going to be that liberal in the first place.

 

Overall, I'm not casting a vote on this one. I think there's enough of an argument on both sides to make it a difficult thing to have a hard ruling over. Besides, if someone can play solo with firearms like I did, it becomes tricky to say it isn't a viable option. Chanters do have natural advantages in terms of high DoT with Dragon Thrashed - but what I didn't mention in my class build was that I did the same thing with a Paladin that I sacked in after 50 hours after realising a Chanter was better. Point being, if you can make something work even non-optimal on the highest difficulties (Paladin, which would have also assuredly worked because of their massive defences) it's a bit tough to suggest a legit rebalance argument.

Edited October 17, 2016 by Jojobobo

[Slack83er]

Ha, my famous firearms post improved and poll-ized I'd vote "it depends" if you ask me, and if it was available. Crossbows are perfectly reproduced for example, and I think that their bonuses balance their weaknesses. Rifles are awfully slow, and if the option to switch weapon wasn't available, they'd be nearly unusable. I once took kana around for a while with his arquebus, and even improved his armor and deflection. The poor guy kept getting massacred every time he was reloading the gun. Maybe decrease damage a bit, but retain its bonuses as well to the arcane veil piercing... but speed it up a bit.. pistols and blunderbusses... mm I guess they're ok..

[Wolken3156]

I only see guns as a utility weapon, much like someone above mentioned. The reload speed generally delegates it either being an sniping tool for Paladins with Flames of Devotion or for building focus with Ciphers or for getting some massive DoT damage with a Ranger's Wounding Shot.

 

I usually take Gunner anyway though since even though I recommend it often, I find myself too lazy to swap around my Cipher's weapons anyway, so I do stick with a gun a lot. Reload speed being affected by other speed boosts would be more than enough to balance them. Upping their damage might be a bit overkill, FoD with an Arquebus shot already one-shots or close to one-shots most enemies in-game anyway!

[Kaylon]

The ranged weapons were pretty balanced before WM (the arbalest was even the best ranged weapon at some point) for a few reasons:

- the speed enchantments weren't working and the main ways to increase the attack speed were the dex (which affected everything), Swift Aim & Sure Handed Ila (were reducing both recovery/reload times)

- Deleterious Alacrity and other speed buffs which reduced only recovery were less common (limited ingredients, no spell mastery...)

- Swift Aim, Gunner and Sure Handed Ila all stacked, reducing the reload times by over 50% 

 

WM1 introduced changes/fixes that swinged drastically the balance in favor of bows because:

- speed enchantments on items were fixed, durgan enchantment was introduced and all were stacking multiplicatively

- Twinned Arrows greatly favors bows

- Swift Aim and Sure Handed Ila reload buffs don't stack anymore - it's impossible to reduce the reload times by more than 45%

- no soulbound firearms

- speed buffs reducing the recovery times are very common making 0% recovery easily achievable

[Boeroer]

A summoned firearm which doesn't have to reload but only lasts for a certain amount of shots - that would have been cool.

 

Or a firearm that also has x uses/rest of Minor Missiles or Concussive Missiles or whatever spell fits (like a grenade launcher under the barrel). 

 

By the way - a bit offtopic: what I really miss in PoE are things like throwing weapons like javalins. Or grenades! There's black powder, so...
I mean there are charged items like Remembrance Ashes and stuff since WM. Should have been easy to expand this principle to throwing weapons that you can craft yourself or buy at a shop. Or you make throwing weapons that have x uses per encounter and assume you retrieve them when encounter ends. 

[Raven Darkholme]

A summoned firearm which doesn't have to reload but only lasts for a certain amount of shots - that would have been cool.

 

Or a firearm that also has x uses/rest of Minor Missiles or Concussive Missiles or whatever spell fits (like a grenade launcher under the barrel). 

 

By the way - a bit offtopic: what I really miss in PoE are things like throwing weapons like javalins. Or grenades! There's black powder, so...

I mean there are charged items like Remembrance Ashes and stuff since WM. Should have been easy to expand this principle to throwing weapons that you can craft yourself or buy at a shop. Or you make throwing weapons that have x uses per encounter and assume you retrieve them when encounter ends. 

This, so much.

If something were added to the game I'd be totally fine with it instead of buffing something that already gets used by many people.

[hilfazer]

Not long after release Beloved Spirit got /5ed (its power was reduced 5 times). After many months (beginning of this year IIRC) it got eventually buffed. I don't remember if it is as strong as it used to be or stronger, what matters is that /5ing it wasn't a good idea (who would have guessed).

 

Sure Handed Ila chant got exactly same treatment - it got /5ed.

It is time to unnerf it.

[Raven Darkholme]

Beloved Spirit and Sure handed are awesome, the chanter is the strongest class in this game and doesn't need buffs.

[plenilune]

What do you all think of the new arbalest from Deadfire pack? Looks pretty OP to me. Thinking of starting a new character with this.

[Kaylon]

What do you all think of the new arbalest from Deadfire pack? Looks pretty OP to me. Thinking of starting a new character with this.

Despite the huge speed boost the reload time is still very long even for a ranger with Swift Aim and Gunner. 

 

PS. I'm suspecting the devs made a mistake and instead of reducing the reload time they increased it. Right now the new soulbound arbalest is inferior to Aedrin's Wrecker in every possible way.

Edited November 16, 2017 by Kaylon

[rheingold]

Oh dear, I was hoping to use the new arbalest. Hope that if that is the case, the devs will do one final, final patch to fix it...