Should the EU become the United States of Europe? What do you think?

[Ben No.3]

I do not consider Denmark and Austria parts of Germany.

[Gorth]

One of Bismarck's most famous quotes: "Prussia must concentrate and maintain its power for the favorable moment which has already slipped by several times. Prussia's boundaries according to the Vienna treaties are not favorable to a healthy state life. The great questions of the time will not be resolved by speeches and majority decisions—that was the great mistake of 1848 and 1849—but by iron and blood"

 

The point/objective being to conquer all German speaking territories in Europe. At first allied with Austria and when done, declaring war against Austria over who got the spoils from the wars against Denmark and France (annexing large territories from both countries). "Grossdeutschland" was his goal from the outset and German nationalism his tool to get (that, and superior armies and guns).

[Ben No.3]

I do know that all. Nethertheless, you must acknowledge that he also united parts of Germany by negotiation, not conquest.

[Gorth]

I do know that all. Nethertheless, you must acknowledge that he also united parts of Germany by negotiation, not conquest.

Having a large Prussian and Austrian army camped at your border usually gives the ultimatums issued a certain "gravitas"

[Chilloutman]

I do know that all. Nethertheless, you must acknowledge that he also united parts of Germany by negotiation, not conquest.

Yeah, like Hitler got Sudetenland through diplomacy right? right? xD

[Meshugger]

We should be thankful that the only leverage that the EU and it's major players have is the threat of dumping refugees over the border or showing a pouty face.

Edited November 1, 2016 by Meshugger

[Ben No.3]

 

I do know that all. Nethertheless, you must acknowledge that he also united parts of Germany by negotiation, not conquest.

Yeah, like Hitler got Sudetenland through diplomacy right? right? xD

I was about Bismark. If you want to join the conversation, please stay in context

[Chilloutman]

 

 

I do know that all. Nethertheless, you must acknowledge that he also united parts of Germany by negotiation, not conquest.

Yeah, like Hitler got Sudetenland through diplomacy right? right? xD

 

I was about Bismark. If you want to join the conversation, please stay in context

 

Its completely same example, don't be so touchy when someone mention Hitler, its a past, I think no-one in Europe holds grudge about it anymore (well maybe poles)

[Meshugger]

Actually, the German conquerors of old are quite revered now even if some of them were considered to be the Anti-Christ of their day. Just look at Frederick The Great of Prussia, Frederick Barbarossa of the Holy Roman Empire, Frederick II of the Holy Roman Empire and "Blood & Iron" Otto Von Bismarck of Germany. John F Kennedy understood this with Hitler: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/world-history/a-berliner-in-1963-but-did-former-us-president-john-f-kennedy-once-admire-adolf-hitler-8629991.html

[Ben No.3]

 

 

 

I do know that all. Nethertheless, you must acknowledge that he also united parts of Germany by negotiation, not conquest.

Yeah, like Hitler got Sudetenland through diplomacy right? right? xD

I was about Bismark. If you want to join the conversation, please stay in context

Its completely same example, don't be so touchy when someone mention Hitler, its a past, I think no-one in Europe holds grudge about it anymore (well maybe poles)

Bismarck was in the 60s early 70s of the 19th century, Hitler in the 30s and 40s of the 20th. Between them many political changes and a lost world war. How is that the same example?

[Chilloutman]

 

 

 

 

I do know that all. Nethertheless, you must acknowledge that he also united parts of Germany by negotiation, not conquest.

Yeah, like Hitler got Sudetenland through diplomacy right? right? xD

 

I was about Bismark. If you want to join the conversation, please stay in context

 

Its completely same example, don't be so touchy when someone mention Hitler, its a past, I think no-one in Europe holds grudge about it anymore (well maybe poles)

 

Bismarck was in the 60s early 70s of the 19th century, Hitler in the 30s and 40s of the 20th. Between them many political changes and a lost world war. How is that the same example?

 

Both used military might to push diplomatic solution

[Ben No.3]

That statement is so broad it would apply to hundreds of historical figures throughout time.

 

Hitler and Bismark are different. Do your homework. If you have any questions concerning these two, I will happily answer you as good as I can.

Edited November 1, 2016 by Ben No.3

[Chilloutman]

That statement is so broad it would apply to hundreds of historical figures throughout time.

 

Hitler and Bismark are different. Do your homework. If you have any questions concerning these two, I will happily answer you as good as I can.

That statement is so broad it would apply to hundreds of historical figures throughout time.

 

Hitler and Bismark are different. Do your homework. If you have any questions concerning these two, I will happily answer you as good as I can.

I am not saying it doesn't happen like that anywhere else, I am just pointing you out that it was not that much political genius as you present him as good military man which he sure was

Edited November 1, 2016 by Chilloutman

[Ben No.3]

The unification of Germany was largely a huge diplomatic effort and it succeeded. Which was very unlikely, considering how high most of the German countries valued their independence. But Bismarks Germany was largely unified at a table, not on a battlefield.

Edited November 1, 2016 by Ben No.3

[Chippy]

Dogmatic thinking is very dangerous indeed.... 

 

 

Heh, I need to get the hang of that German sense of humour.

[Ben No.3]

 

 

Dogmatic thinking is very dangerous indeed....

 

Heh, I need to get the hang of that German sense of humour.

I'm serious... It's an important lesson Germany had to learn the hard way (and hasn't fully learned it seems... Look at PEGIDA)

[Chippy]

 

 

I'm serious... It's an important lesson Germany had to learn the hard way (and hasn't fully learned it seems... Look at PEGIDA)

 

 

Well groups like PEGIDA form (I think) where people see this disconnect between the extremism of situations, met with the extremism of government's political policies.  I can't quote anyone on that, but this might be something else to consider about the EU - people see kids getting raped in swimming pools by migrants, and then the rapist gets set free because the court decided he didn't speak the language and the rapist didn't understand that the boy didn't want to be raped.  So people are afrad that these systems of law and political culture will be consolidated by the select few, and rolled out across the future United States Of Europe, and start to see parties on the right as the answer.

I've heard that some Germans, Austrians, etc have this sense of guilt passed down from one generation to the next - is it really that widespread?  And do you consider people that join PEGIDA to be ... on a path previously trod by others?.

I know that (name excapes me now) a politician in the EU from that area stated that nationalism leads to fascism, and Angela Merkel warned that various countries are sliding into dangerous levels of nationalism, and are generally terrified of the populace going towards the right.

 

https://youtu.be/5uMQZnQR1TU

 

 

 

[Ben No.3]

I would definitely not call it a sense of guilt... Rather a sense of responsibility to stop similar situations from happening in the future.

Do we consider PEGIDA Nazis? Some surely do. I think that's to extreme. We all consider them nationalists, and there is a certain... Aversion towards that.

 

Here is a fun fact: in Dresden, where PEGIDA and similar organisations are especially popular, there are only around 5% immigrants living there... In Frankfurt, there are around 30% immigrants living there, and I rarely ever experience racism or right extremism.

[Chippy]

So it's generally accepted that there is more of a sense of homogeneity and national pride in places like Dresden than in Frankfurt? And is there a correlation between there being low EU support in the former and higher in the latter?.

 

I just wonder what happens when the cases like this kid come up, (assuming it was in Germany) is there a political atmosphere of not expecting migrants to live by the same laws (initially or otherwise) because throwing the migrant in jail is seen as too harsh a sentence, and peaceful multiculturalism is the primary social and civil concern.  I only ask because it's clear the EU wants a peaceful multicultural Europe above all else, and I would say if EU laws are filtering down into the courts and this is the result, countries like Austria may be seeing a rise in popularity for groups like PEGIDA and the AFD.

[213374U]

 

"27 Yay, 1 Nay, the whole deals off."

 

its how democracy works

 

Really? The EU need 100% agreement on these matters? You guys are going to tank even faster than us!

 

I figured Gfted1 would appreciate this:

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/ceta-canada-eu-trade-deal-belgium-justin-trudeau-charles-michel-a7382851.html

 

I guess somebody made a phone call after they recovered from their laughing fit.

[Gorth]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/ceta-canada-eu-trade-deal-belgium-justin-trudeau-charles-michel-a7382851.html[/url]

 

I guess somebody made a phone call after they recovered from their laughing fit.

The article sort of implies that the Wallonians were worried that their jobs might get outsourced to cheap Canadian labour. The things you didn't know about Canada (other than their imperialist and expansionist tendencies in the artic region of course).

[Gfted1]

I figured Gfted1 would appreciate this:

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/ceta-canada-eu-trade-deal-belgium-justin-trudeau-charles-michel-a7382851.html

 

I guess somebody made a phone call after they recovered from their laughing fit.

Good for them I suppose. I wonder what changed. In other news, now we cant build the largest optical telescope in the Northern hemisphere in Hawaii because thar be bones on that damn mountain. smh. *rages*

[Ben No.3]

So it's generally accepted that there is more of a sense of homogeneity and national pride in places like Dresden than in Frankfurt? And is there a correlation between there being low EU support in the former and higher in the latter?.

 

I just wonder what happens when the cases like this kid come up, (assuming it was in Germany) is there a political atmosphere of not expecting migrants to live by the same laws (initially or otherwise) because throwing the migrant in jail is seen as too harsh a sentence, and peaceful multiculturalism is the primary social and civil concern. I only ask because it's clear the EU wants a peaceful multicultural Europe above all else, and I would say if EU laws are filtering down into the courts and this is the result, countries like Austria may be seeing a rise in popularity for groups like PEGIDA and the AFD.

I will love to answer these questions, just clarify for me: where concretely where the migrants put above the law?

[ShadySands]

Would member states be able to leave this hypothetical United States of Europe? I ask because of what happened when some of our states tried to leave and all the mess with the Brexit. Though I doubt many in the UK would be willing to go to war over it

[Ben No.3]

Would member states be able to leave this hypothetical United States of Europe? I ask because of what happened when some of our states tried to leave and all the mess with the Brexit. Though I doubt many in the UK would be willing to go to war over it

Well, can you leave a country? No... Not in a legal way.