Coup or attempted coup in Turkey

[Chilloutman]

 

 

Yes Oby the West does support Erdogan because he has strategic importance as Turkey is important around regional stability

Yep, and he effectively destroy Turkey right now. Westlings can't into strategic thinking. :lol:

Well Bruce, he is currently the biggest pain in the ass for Europe... If EU will support him despite all of what is happening, then there will be even more anti EU sentiment rising, because this is direct pissing and ****ting onto the very principles of democratic foundation of Europe...

 

It also amuses me how are you defending the equality among people, but on othet hand, we should just support Erdogan and his lackeys, because Turkey is "important strategic partner"

 

*mindblown*

 

 

Nothing new with Bruce to be extremely contradictory to his own stances and beliefs

[BruceVC]

 

 

Yes Oby the West does support Erdogan because he has strategic importance as Turkey is important around regional stability

Yep, and he effectively destroy Turkey right now. Westlings can't into strategic thinking. :lol:

Well Bruce, he is currently the biggest pain in the ass for Europe... If EU will support him despite all of what is happening, then there will be even more anti EU sentiment rising, because this is direct pissing and ****ting in the face of the basic principles of democratic foundations of Europe...

 

It also amuses me how are you defending the equality among people, but on other hand, we should just support Erdogan and his lackeys and overlook his purges, because Turkey is "important strategic partner"

 

*mindblown*

 

Okay lets unpack this because we clearly not looking at this Turkey importance in the same way

 

 

Can you explain first, just summarize why you dont like Turkey and why they a pain for the EU? You have mentioned this before but I just want your latest opinion 

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

Yes Oby the West does support Erdogan because he has strategic importance as Turkey is important around regional stability

Yep, and he effectively destroy Turkey right now. Westlings can't into strategic thinking. :lol:

Well Bruce, he is currently the biggest pain in the ass for Europe... If EU will support him despite all of what is happening, then there will be even more anti EU sentiment rising, because this is direct pissing and ****ting onto the very principles of democratic foundation of Europe...

 

It also amuses me how are you defending the equality among people, but on othet hand, we should just support Erdogan and his lackeys, because Turkey is "important strategic partner"

 

*mindblown*

 

 

Nothing new with Bruce to be extremely contradictory to his own stances and beliefs

 

Chilloutman how rude .....that must be  at least the 12th most rudest thing that has been said to me today 

[Drowsy Emperor]

And they say Kim Jong-un is bad. :D

[Fighter]

They've closed more than 500 schools reportedly. For teaching wrongthink is the only conclusion. Enjoy your religious education Turkey.

[obyknven]

Emperor protectus!

http://en.farsnews.com/newstext.aspx?nn=13950430001452 

Erdogan Alerted of Incoming Coup by Russia.

 

Several Arab media outlets quoted diplomatic sources in Ankara as saying that Turkey's National Intelligence Organization, known locally as the MIT, received intel from the Russian army that warned of an impending coup in the Muslim state.

 

The unnamed diplomats said the Russian army in the region had intercepted highly sensitive army exchanges and encoded radio messages showing that the Turkish army was readying to stage a coup against the administration in Ankara.

 

The exchanges included dispatch of several army choppers to President Erdogan's resort hotel to arrest or kill the president.

 

The diplomats were not sure of the Russian station that had intercepted the exchanges, but said the Russian army intelligence unit deployed in Khmeimim (also called Hmeimim) in Syria's Northern province of Lattakia is reportedly equipped with state-of-the-art electronic and eavesdropping systems to gather highly sensitive information for the Russian squadrons that are on an anti-terrorism mission in Syria.

 

The official statements coming out from Ankara are in full compliance with the Arab media reports quoting the diplomatic sources on the Russian intel.

 

Only four days after the coup, Erdogan appeared on the media saying that he plans to declare a crucial turn in foreign policy that would "end differences with Turkey's neighboring states".

 

Less than a day later, Kremlin Spokesman Dmitry Peskov announced that President Erdogan would visit Russia early in August to meet with his Russian counterpart Vladimir Putin.

[Zoraptor]

Russia alerts Turkey to coup? Possible, I guess, but doesn't seem likely. PR seems far more likely, much like the reports that the pilots who shot down the Russian Su24 were coup plotters and killed (at first)/ arrested.

 

Having said that, Turkey has cut off support for one of their two most direct proxies in Syria (and even did so a few days before they decided to show how moderate they were by decapitating a 10 year old on camera) so there's definitely some quid pro quo going on. And of course anything that potentially weakens ties to either NATO or the EU is in Russia's interests, and there's no one with as much ability to alienate others as Erdy especially when he's full of righteous fury. He's managed to alienate... everyone except Qatar at some point over the past few years. He even had a fight with Saudi over Morsi and their sponsored coup in Egypt let alone his fights with Merkel, Netanyahu, Putin, Assad etc.

Edited July 20, 2016 by Zoraptor

[Fighter]

This is according to some Iranian source. But I wouldn't put it past Putin. Despite all else he loves the corrupt thieving a**holes like himself.

[BruceVC]

This is according to some Iranian source. But I wouldn't put it past Putin. Despite all else he loves the corrupt thieving a**holes like himself.

Fighter whats the opinion of people you know about the credibility of the latest Russian  sports doping scandal?

 

On CNN they were interviewing people in Moscow on the street and most people seem to think this is a Western strategy to undermine the Russian people

 

Whats your view?

[Fighter]

I honestly haven't paid that much attention to the actual details. So I don't think I can comment.

[obyknven]

 

 whats the opinion of people you know about the credibility of the latest Russian  sports doping scandal?

 

On CNN they were interviewing people in Moscow on the street and most people seem to think this is a Western strategy to undermine the Russian people

 

But Bruce, all sportsmen of the world using doping, without chemical help reaching such high results is just impossible! All difference is - western doping is democratic and good meanwhile russian doping so totalitarian and evil.

Though this theme is not too interested for Russians, we prefer wars, sport is just surrogate of military domination.

[Zoraptor]

This is according to some Iranian source. But I wouldn't put it past Putin. Despite all else he loves the corrupt thieving a**holes like himself.

 

Farsnews is OK, at least in these circumstances- I don't believe the details of the report without corroboration (which won't come) but I'd strongly suspect that they genuinely were given that information. Iran doesn't really benefit from making it up while it's a source that will be discredited automatically in the west but reported in Russia. Best of both worlds since it further repairs relations with Russia- along with all the throwing of the F16 pilots under the bus, not quite literally*- and won't impact relations with the west too much.

 

I'd say that Putin likes leaders who can be manipulated or who stay out of his way. I suspect he's pretty agnostic towards actual corruption elsewhere except insofar as it means that that leader can be bought/ influenced. I'm not sure that Erdogan falls into either of those categories as he's too unpredictable and far too emotional- but at least he's unpredictable and overly emotional to everyone, including his supposed western partners.

 

*Which is, of course, a load of opportunistic bollocks. Davitoglu and Erdogan were pretty explicit about ordering the shoot down, back when they were beating their nationalist chests at Russia instead of domestic opposition.

[obyknven]

Moar purges for God of Purges!

 

 

Coup leader transformed into drunkard so fast.

[obyknven]

http://sputniknews.com/world/20160721/1043417798/turkey-russia-su-24-downing.html

 

"The decision to shoot down the plane was taken in the air. Such decision are made by a pilot and he abides by the rules of engagement. Although, he can avoid downing a plane that has violated the airspace for a short span and leaving it," he said.

 

"The downing of a Russian plane that was clearly abandoning the Turkish airspace raises questions," Aktay added.

[BruceVC]

 

 

 whats the opinion of people you know about the credibility of the latest Russian  sports doping scandal?

 

On CNN they were interviewing people in Moscow on the street and most people seem to think this is a Western strategy to undermine the Russian people

 

But Bruce, all sportsmen of the world using doping, without chemical help reaching such high results is just impossible! All difference is - western doping is democratic and good meanwhile russian doping so totalitarian and evil.

Though this theme is not too interested for Russians, we prefer wars, sport is just surrogate of military domination.

 

Oby some sportsman do dope and doping happens in all countries to  a certain degree , look at Lance Armstrong 

 

But Russia took doping to the next level, the word " state sponsored "  was used. The worst  thing about it is  Russia does care about its sport and there are Russian athletes who dont dope ...but now the entire athletics team has been banned

 

http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/wireStory/russias-track-field-stars-angered-rio-olympics-ban-40773405

 

And the IAAF didnt want to do this to Russia but they had no choice due to how severe the problem was  

[obyknven]

 

 

whats the opinion of people you know about the credibility of the latest Russian  sports doping scandal?

 

On CNN they were interviewing people in Moscow on the street and most people seem to think this is a Western strategy to undermine the Russian people

But Bruce, all sportsmen of the world using doping, without chemical help reaching such high results is just impossible! All difference is - western doping is democratic and good meanwhile russian doping so totalitarian and evil.

Though this theme is not too interested for Russians, we prefer wars, sport is just surrogate of military domination.

 

Oby some sportsman do dope and doping happens in all countries to  a certain degree , look at Lance Armstrong 

 

But Russia took doping to the next level, the word " state sponsored "  was used. The worst  thing about it is  Russia does care about its sport and there are Russian athletes who dont dope ...but now the entire athletics team has been banned

 

http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/wireStory/russias-track-field-stars-angered-rio-olympics-ban-40773405

 

And the IAAF didnt want to do this to Russia but they had no choice due to how severe the problem was

 

Just compare Olympic results 70 years ago and now. Do you really think Humanity so physically changed/evolutionized during so short period? Nope, but chemistry/medicine has been developed so strongly during same time - and this is explanation why modern sportsmen so stronger than their ancestors. All sportsmen of World use dope, without this they can't even become members of National teams. Sport is just big dirty business, show with huge amount of money for brainwashing for human cattle.

 

Yep, i'm **** to sport, and because this stay absolutely calm about exclusion of Russian team. 

Edited July 21, 2016 by obyknven

[obyknven]

https://np.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/4t2p0n/turkey_prime_minister_says_coup_attempt_foiled/d5ee90s

As a Turkish citizen I don't know which is worse, a false flag or really one of the biggest coup failures in history? Even though I've seen things real enough, the reason I really can't get myself to think this wasn't a false flag is beccause of my country's history with coups. I mean, most of the senior generals in army have seen the 1980 coup, they should have known better than just shoot random places. Turkey had successful coups that happened on twilight with nobody noticing untill the TV was blocked off by army and then they made their speech. These were all done at the same time all the congressman were arrested and there were soldiers in every city to prevent the people from getting onto the streets. All happened without anybody noticing before it happened. Now, from the evening to this hour I've been tracking, watching everything going on from TV and internet, like wtf? A coup attempt and they don't cut off the media? A coup attempt that goes on for like 10 hourss ? that started on prime time? I seriously can't get myself to believe that in a country with a history of successful coups, the army has planned such a disastrous coup attempt, hell, it wasn't even a coup attempt because they didn't arrest the politicians. They let Erdogan call people to the streets(in any senseful country it would be said to stay at home, here in turkey our president calls us to streets against tanks and F16s so that we can keep him on his throne). A coup attempt that doesn't target politicians at all but turns everything into a **** show and bloodbath. And this all only helps Erdogan. Believe it or not, calling now, he will have more power than ever very soon and then Radical Islamization of Turkey will go on faster than ever. They called the faith members to fight against the coup... People were made to believe they were expelling the Crusaders lol. Mosques were used as a way to rally people to protect Erdogan's cause. Has anyone seen in a country unarmed civilians take over a fully operational military tank ? I haven't seen it for myself but watched things like that happen on internet for the entire night. The death toll is... Low. Really low. When you consider thousands of people beating up the armed army members with sticks and whatever they can find... Like wtf dude, if someone opened fire on one of those how many thousands would have died? You could say they already opened fire but that's only a very little part of the story honestly, mostly air forces opened fire. Ground forces were mostly beaten by the mobs. I don't wanna think what would have happened if those tanks ACTUALLY fired at people.
Edit add up: Most of the soldiers involved were 20-24 years old and many reported that they were commanded to go onto a so called "training mission" , that they had no idea what was going on when they realized they were part of a "coup". I've watched the army takeover of CNN alive, on TV, those were, kids. Their hands were shaking, they said "Sorry but we were ordered to take over the channel" , they had no knowledge on what to do... They asked the journalists there how to shut down the broadcasting... Yes, those all happened live, I heard it all. They takeover CNN yet they don't even have an idea how to shut down broadcasting? You know what, even after they asked someone to shut down the broadcast it somehow continued through the night untill it was eventually seized by the angry mob and the police. It's unfortunate that many of those rankless soldiers who had been only following orders, yet didn't fire at the people when they were opposed, were actually beaten to death. Hell, there is even a report of a soldier getting his head cut off, ISIS style. The people doing this to the army is something beyond understanding, it shows how powerful and dangerous a big group of people can actually be when they want something. In Turkey army is regarded as one of the most honorful organizations, it's the bone of the country, people joining the army are sent away with celebrations. Joining the army and fighting was regarded as the most honorable duty a man could do in his life. The army is holy in a way that I don't know how to tell most people in the Western world. Now the people actually opposing the army like that? This is something that has never happened before. Even after all coups Turkish army was always supported and regarded highly. TSK's reputation has gone so low that I can't help but think this will only mean Turkey is moving towards becoming a police state with each day. The army will face consequences, many will be jailed and some even speculate executions even though it's currently forbidden. On the other hand the police will only grow stronger, as the "True defenders of democracy and the state" . I don't know guys, maybe this all doesn't make sense to you but army and people were so integrated in Turkey and I don't think anyone would have imagined it would come to that.

Butthurt detected.

[Gorth]

Erdogans problem was, the Reichstag was too far away to set on fire, so he had to create domestic problems to shore up the flagging voter numbers. First goading the Kurds into a new conflict to give people something to rally about and when not enough, create his own little "Cuba Crisis" getting within an inch of regular war with Russia (or at least letting people linger in the that belief). Everyone getting all riled up and not asking the right questions while he is turning Ataturks vision of a secular, democratic state into a new Iraq and making himself the new Saddam Hussein. Just my opinion of course

[Mamoulian War]

 

 

 

Yes Oby the West does support Erdogan because he has strategic importance as Turkey is important around regional stability

Yep, and he effectively destroy Turkey right now. Westlings can't into strategic thinking. :lol:

Well Bruce, he is currently the biggest pain in the ass for Europe... If EU will support him despite all of what is happening, then there will be even more anti EU sentiment rising, because this is direct pissing and ****ting in the face of the basic principles of democratic foundations of Europe...

 

It also amuses me how are you defending the equality among people, but on other hand, we should just support Erdogan and his lackeys and overlook his purges, because Turkey is "important strategic partner"

 

*mindblown*

 

Okay lets unpack this because we clearly not looking at this Turkey importance in the same way

 

 

Can you explain first, just summarize why you dont like Turkey and why they a pain for the EU? You have mentioned this before but I just want your latest opinion 

 

 

Do you really think, that after sacking 60000 civil servants around the country, because they have taught the children how real western democracy looks like, there is need to explain anymore?

 

Also according some Turkish journalists, which are not yet gagged, the State of Emergency, which is currently in place, the biggest reason, is that these 60000 people would during normal days have pretty big chance according to Turkish law to get the jobs back in trials against the state. In the State of Emergency, Erdogan just can do issue decree and be gone with them.

 

I would not be hesitant to say, that this State of Emergency will last much longer than 3 months, because Erdogan has now all the power, which he wanted as a president, but was unable to change the constitution...

 

And Turkish importance my ass...

 

Putin is big enemy of the West, and Erdogan is big friend... Where is the ****ing logic behind this, when Erdogan is much much worse than Putin ever was, especially to his own people...

 

If you really think that a dictator like him, who has no problems with reinstating Death Penalty, so he can kill-off all of his opposition, is a good ally of EU or west, then there is absolutely no reason to discuss about it with you anymore. Because throwing away everything, what is sacred to the basic principles of Democracy, is the biggest reason why the EU project is losing more and more support among common folks...

Edited July 22, 2016 by Mamoulian War

[obyknven]

 Ataturks vision of a secular, democratic state 

Secular - yes, but democratic - no

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/4937/turkey-ethnic-cleansing-jews

http://san-francisco-bay-area-humanists.blogspot.ru/2011/01/ataturk-was-secular-nationalist-who.html

http://www.turkeyanalyst.org/publications/turkey-analyst-articles/item/367-hitler’s-infatuation-with-atatürk-revisited.html

http://www.greek-genocide.net/index.php/overview/perpetrators/261-mustafa-kemal-ataturk

 

Actually in modern fight between Turkish Nazi Militarists vs Turkish Islamists - Islamists are better guys, just because  anyone can become Muslim, but nobody can become a ethnic Turk.

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

Yes Oby the West does support Erdogan because he has strategic importance as Turkey is important around regional stability

Yep, and he effectively destroy Turkey right now. Westlings can't into strategic thinking. :lol:

Well Bruce, he is currently the biggest pain in the ass for Europe... If EU will support him despite all of what is happening, then there will be even more anti EU sentiment rising, because this is direct pissing and ****ting in the face of the basic principles of democratic foundations of Europe...

 

It also amuses me how are you defending the equality among people, but on other hand, we should just support Erdogan and his lackeys and overlook his purges, because Turkey is "important strategic partner"

 

*mindblown*

 

Okay lets unpack this because we clearly not looking at this Turkey importance in the same way

 

 

Can you explain first, just summarize why you dont like Turkey and why they a pain for the EU? You have mentioned this before but I just want your latest opinion 

 

 

Do you really think, that after sacking 60000 civil servants around the country, because they have taught the children how real western democracy looks like, there is need to explain anymore?

 

Also according some Turkish journalists, which are not yet gagged, the State of Emergency, which is currently in place, the biggest reason, is that these 60000 people would during normal days have pretty big chance according to Turkish law to get the jobs back in trials against the state. In the State of Emergency, Erdogan just can do issue decree and be gone with them.

 

I would not be hesitant to say, that this State of Emergency will last much longer than 3 months, because Erdogan has now all the power, which he wanted as a president, but was unable to change the constitution...

 

And Turkish importance my ass...

 

Putin is big enemy of the West, and Erdogan is big friend... Where is the ****ing logic behind this, when Erdogan is much much worse than Putin ever was, especially to his own people...

 

If you really think that a dictator like him, who has no problems with reinstating Death Penalty, so he can kill-off all of his opposition, is a good ally of EU or west, then there is absolutely no reason to discuss about it with you anymore. Because throwing away everything, what is sacred to the basic principles of Democracy, is the biggest reason why the EU project is losing more and more support among common folks...

 

Mamie I like you and I appreciate the effort you put into your posts. I have learnt a lot from you about topics like  Slovakia  and your views on the EU. You are a sagacious and interesting person 

 

But if you want to debate with me please dont make points and then suggest if I dont agree with you on something then " you wont debate with me anymore " ....especially when you haven't heard what I  may say. It comes across as irrational and contradicts the purpose of a debate which is the exchange of different views ...not telling the other person how they need to respond

 

 So  now Turkey, I know some Turks who live in SA  who are good fun and there are some good Turkish restaurants in  SA but 

 

• I dont  really care about the social conditions of the Turkish people
• I dont really like Erdogan 
• I cant get involved in moral outrage with how he is treating his citizens because as I mentioned I have no meaningful connection to Turkey and I dont want to have one. And to be honest Turkey doesnt care much about me either 
• I care about the EU, UK and the citizens of the EU. I dont want the EU to be negatively impacted   by instability in the ME 
• So based on this view Turkey and Erdogan have strategic value, thats it ...its not emotional or personal.. Erdogan is using the EU on certain levels and the EU is using Erdogan, its a practical relationship 

 

I have to be honest I thought you said you never  cared much for Turkey either but now you seem upset about how Erdogan is treating his citizens. Of course I respect your view but I dont share it. Erogan just needs to continue  his business and military alliance with the West ...what he does domestically cant really be changed. 

 

I do believe in regime change but after Iraq and Libya and all the various complaints and criticism from people blaming the West for the failures of the new governments in those countries  we only implement regime change when there is a credible and competent government that can manage the new political reality

 

Erdogan may be disliked but he is inextricably linked to the stability of Turkey especially after the Coup so  we need to work with him, he cannot be removed from power by the West even if it makes political sense like you suggesting

 

So in summary Erdogan is not a real friend to the West but he is needed ....consider him a political acquaintance

 

Putin is not an enemy of West, he has unintentionally created friction through his paranoia of the West and NATO and now he has over committed Russia on various military campaigns but Russia's economy has been neglected  and is in a recession

 

Putin and Russia have much greater  long term importance than Turkey but Putin needs to fix the Russian economy before he embarks on more plans of hegemony. This is a journey only Russia can go on, the West cant help here either unless he pulls out of Ukraine 

Edited July 22, 2016 by BruceVC

[Chilloutman]

Mamie I like you and I appreciate the effort you put into your posts. I have learnt a lot from you about topics like Slovenia and your views on the EU.

facepalm

Edited July 22, 2016 by Chilloutman

[Mamoulian War]

 

 

 

 

 

Yes Oby the West does support Erdogan because he has strategic importance as Turkey is important around regional stability

Yep, and he effectively destroy Turkey right now. Westlings can't into strategic thinking. :lol:

Well Bruce, he is currently the biggest pain in the ass for Europe... If EU will support him despite all of what is happening, then there will be even more anti EU sentiment rising, because this is direct pissing and ****ting in the face of the basic principles of democratic foundations of Europe...

 

It also amuses me how are you defending the equality among people, but on other hand, we should just support Erdogan and his lackeys and overlook his purges, because Turkey is "important strategic partner"

 

*mindblown*

 

Okay lets unpack this because we clearly not looking at this Turkey importance in the same way

 

 

Can you explain first, just summarize why you dont like Turkey and why they a pain for the EU? You have mentioned this before but I just want your latest opinion 

 

 

Do you really think, that after sacking 60000 civil servants around the country, because they have taught the children how real western democracy looks like, there is need to explain anymore?

 

Also according some Turkish journalists, which are not yet gagged, the State of Emergency, which is currently in place, the biggest reason, is that these 60000 people would during normal days have pretty big chance according to Turkish law to get the jobs back in trials against the state. In the State of Emergency, Erdogan just can do issue decree and be gone with them.

 

I would not be hesitant to say, that this State of Emergency will last much longer than 3 months, because Erdogan has now all the power, which he wanted as a president, but was unable to change the constitution...

 

And Turkish importance my ass...

 

Putin is big enemy of the West, and Erdogan is big friend... Where is the ****ing logic behind this, when Erdogan is much much worse than Putin ever was, especially to his own people...

 

If you really think that a dictator like him, who has no problems with reinstating Death Penalty, so he can kill-off all of his opposition, is a good ally of EU or west, then there is absolutely no reason to discuss about it with you anymore. Because throwing away everything, what is sacred to the basic principles of Democracy, is the biggest reason why the EU project is losing more and more support among common folks...

 

Mamie I like you and I appreciate the effort you put into your posts. I have learnt a lot from you about topics like  Slovakia  and your views on the EU. You are a sagacious and interesting person 

 

But if you want to debate with me please dont make points and then suggest if I dont agree with you on something then " you wont debate with me anymore " ....especially when you haven't heard what I  may say. It comes across as irrational and contradicts the purpose of a debate which is the exchange of different views ...not telling the other person how they need to respond

 

 So  now Turkey, I know some Turks who live in SA  who are good fun and there are some good Turkish restaurants in  SA but 

 

• I dont  really care about the social conditions of the Turkish people
• I dont really like Erdogan 
• I cant get involved in moral outrage with how he is treating his citizens because as I mentioned I have no meaningful connection to Turkey and I dont want to have one. And to be honest Turkey doesnt care much about me either 
• I care about the EU, UK and the citizens of the EU. I dont want the EU to be negatively impacted   by instability in the ME 
• So based on this view Turkey and Erdogan have strategic value, thats it ...its not emotional or personal.. Erdogan is using the EU on certain levels and the EU is using Erdogan, its a practical relationship 

 

I have to be honest I thought you said you never  cared much for Turkey either but now you seem upset about how Erdogan is treating his citizens. Of course I respect your view but I dont share it. Erogan just needs to continue  his business and military alliance with the West ...what he does domestically cant really be changed. 

 

I do believe in regime change but after Iraq and Libya and all the various complaints and criticism from people blaming the West for the failures of the new governments in those countries  we only implement regime change when there is a credible and competent government that can manage the new political reality

 

Erdogan may be disliked but he is inextricably linked to the stability of Turkey especially after the Coup so  we need to work with him, he cannot be removed from power by the West even if it makes political sense like you suggesting

 

So in summary Erdogan is not a real friend to the West but he is needed ....consider him a political acquaintance

 

Putin is not an enemy of West, he has unintentionally created friction through his paranoia of the West and NATO and now he has over committed Russia on various military campaigns but Russia's economy has been neglected  and is in a recession

 

Putin and Russia have much greater  long term importance than Turkey but Putin needs to fix the Russian economy before he embarks on more plans of hegemony. This is a journey only Russia can go on, the West cant help here either unless he pulls out of Ukraine 

 

 

The friction is done by NATO, not by Russia, you do not live here, you do not understand... The annexation of Crimea was done only after the new government in Ukraine, which cooperated with fascist Right Sector, decided to strip Russian citizens of Ukraine of some of their rights, to which they were used, for many many years ago. Like possibility to use Russian language for official communication, all with the blessing of the west, because our financial lobby wanted all the chernozem and shale gas deposits, which are "accidentally" mostly in Donbas and Lugansk areas. That started the revolution in these areas, and Putin decided to take Crimea. An illegal act, but what have west expected? You can corner bear only so long, until he freaks out...

 

And now NATO is putting rocket systems closer and closer to Russian borders, with the excuse, that this is against North Korea and Iran... How a man have to be stupid, that he would that North Korea would rather shoot their rockets, through whole Asia, Europe and Atlantic to hit East Coast of USA, instead of shooting to Alaska or US West coast? And Iran does not own any rockets, which are capable to fly further than to Turkey, Bulgaria or Greece. In best case... I have thousand reasons to hate Russians and Communists, based on what they have done to my family after coup in 1948, but I am not that stupid, and I do not like, when some garbage in suit is lying right in my face...

 

You maybe do not care what is going on around EU, but I do ****ing care, because if NATO does not stop the insanity in the name of weapon lobby profits, it will be Eastern and Central Europe, which will be hit first, when the next war starts in Europe. So please do not try to educate me how "important" is Erdogan's Turkey to Europe, or how Putin should act because with his current lunacy, he has potential to **** over this region more, than any other ME country ever could...

[Rosbjerg]

EU has no interest in attacking Russia, ever.. But the constant invasion of Scandinavian air and sea space and saber rattling is getting us a little defensive.. To say the least.

[Gorgon]

EU has no interest in attacking Russia, ever.. But the constant invasion of Scandinavian air and sea space and saber rattling is getting us a little defensive.. To say the least.

It's tradition. Besides without the challenges the Swedish air force would have nothing to do.