Dexterity

[MaxQuest]

Going off MaxQuest's Big "Attack Speed" Conundrum thread and assuming all his standardised values for the attack and recovery phases to be correct (which I'm sure they would be), then let's take the mace weapon. It has an attack phase value of 1 - so let's say that lasts 80 frames - and a recovery phase of 1.5 (which would correspond to 120 frames relative to the attack phase).

Just would like to clarify that 1s corresponds to 30 frames. So 1s attack duration and 1.5s recovery would correspond to 30 and 45 frames respectively. Or 30 and 50 frames if we'll take 1.666s recovery duration from the table.

 

But yes, these values do not alter the conclusion you have made: "The big deal here is: the speed gained from zero recovery is massive in comparison to that gained from DEX". For plain auto-attacking (with non-reloading weapons) zero-recovery has indeed way higher benefit.

 

Although there are few more aspects that can be taken into consideration, such as:

- recovery from spells and abilities

- you don't get zero-recovery from the start of the game

- stacking recovery reducing effects is subject to increasing-returns. For example if you have just swift aim with no other bonuses, you will get only ~13% dps increase (e.g. for warbow: (5+30+50)/(5+30/40)). 41% increase with only DAoM up. And the more you stack, the farther you get, up to 142.8% dps increase (5+30+50)/(5+30+0). But at the beginning it is slow. And high dex + firearms can be really handy. Especially provided the fact that you can wear heavier armor with less of penalty to the final dps, right when high DR from armor is most beneficial (like act 1). 

 

So my per class Dex :

Wiz : 10

Druid : 10

Priest : 13+

Chanter : 10 or Dump

Cipher : 15+

Ranger : 15+

Pal : 10

Fighter : 13+

Barbarian :13+, more for interrupt or proc build

Rogue : 19+

Monk : 10+ (because of limited wounds and suffering benefits more from Mig)

I pretty much agree on priest, cipher, ranger, pal, rogue and barbarian.

But on those left I do believe it may vary from build to build.

For a pure tank fighter 8+ could be enough.

For a blasting wizard, especially with on-proc implement, going for 15+ dex is also an option.

And monk can either be built as melee auto-attack dps'er, where high dex is important. Or as torment spammer, with everything pumped into might and int, and dex coming as priority only past per and con.

[Raven Darkholme]

CHars with low per are a waste period, tank or healer don't matter.

Hybrid all day.

[DreamWayfarer]

CHars with low per are a waste period

 

I disagree with this part. Classes with high base accuracy and passive accuracy modifiers can afford to lower PER and still hit often enough to be good hybrids.

 

Low PER on classes without high base accuracy, however? You are a hundred percent right.

[Boeroer]

A melee ranger for example doesn't need high PER if he flanks with his pet (+10), uses Stalker's Link (+10). He has 30 ACC from the start and can afford to have low PER and will still not suck at offense. Same with characters who use fists: +18 at lvl 16 without any ressources. You can afford to have a bit lower PER. Especially since crits with fists don't work like they should. Or a fighter with Disciplined Barrage. Or a ranged wood elf... although those normally dump CON and RES.

 

That doesn't mean that higher PER wouldn't be good, but sometimes - for special builds - you have to make the hard choices.

[rheingold]

Yeah I'd definitely say that some classes don't need high perception. Rogues and rangers can get away with ignoring it. Barbs and Druids are probably the classes that benefit the most from perception. For the rest.... A couple of points of accuracy make very little difference at high levels. Interrupts are nice but not necessary unless used for a specialist build. To be honest, power building in this game is not that important, there is a strong argument that a general build with no min/maxing is as good as a power build. Obviously this is over the entire game... Some encounters might be more difficult or easier.

[Raven Darkholme]

Guys...

Ofc you can "get away" with a lot of things in this game.

If you wanna see how valuable Per is compared to Dex, just do the following challenge:

Create a paladin and start a new game.

Kill Calisca before you do any fights, even the wolves.

Kill the wolves and Glanfarthans who ambush you all solo.

Do this

a) with a paladin that has 3 dex and maxed per

b) same guyx but maxed dex and 3 per

Tell me how it goes.

[Elric Galad]

Well, perception is indeed really good at low level on classes with natural average Acc.

 

Once your priest dings level 7, perception is nice but not critical anymore.

 

And if you don't have a priest in your party, and you don't play solo, you shouldn't even speak about powergaming in the first place  !

[Raven Darkholme]

Well, perception is indeed really good at low level on classes with natural average Acc.

 

Once your priest dings level 7, perception is nice but not critical anymore.

 

And if you don't have a priest in your party, and you don't play solo, you shouldn't even speak about powergaming in the first place  !

The last sentence confuses me.

I can only fulfill your powergaming perspective by soloing with a priest? :D

[Boeroer]

As I said before: higher ACC from PER is useful in the early game, but that usefulness diminishes at higher levels.

 

I also didn't mention the paladin when I talked about classes or builds which can do with lower PER. Paladins have not so good base ACC so especially in the early game the effects of high PER are very good.

I mean 3 to 20 PER means a difference of 17 ACC - with a somewhat crappy base. Of course it's powerful when you start the game.

 

But as I said: a ranger with flanking and Stalker's Link has a higher ACC with his auto attacks in the early game with 3 PER than a paladin with 20 PER.

 

I still wouldn't recommend 3 PER - but you can go with 10 and be happy.

 

Some stats - when you combine them with certain items - can be more important than PER. For example I only recently soloed some WM bounties with a dual wielding monk with Veteran's Recovery & Shod-in-Faith. I maxed MIG, CON and INT, dumped DEX to 4 and left PER at 10 and he did great. Then I leveled the stats towards max PER and he couldn't do it anymore because he died too quickly while his DPS couldn't balance this by killing the foes more quickly. This is the late game of course where 10 ACC don't matter as much as in the early game. You have more debuffs, more ACC buffs and you ACC has leveled with you. 10 ACC take up much less percentage of your overall ACC then.

 

Against dragons (where you need every bit of ACC you can get) it is a different case...

Edited June 18, 2016 by Boeroer

[Raven Darkholme]

As I said before: higher ACC from PER is useful in the early game, but that usefulness diminishes at higher levels.

 

I also didn't mention the paladin when I talked about classes or builds which can do with lower PER. Paladins have not so good base ACC so especially in the early game the effects of high PER are very good.

I mean 3 to 20 PER means a difference of 17 ACC - with a somewhat crappy base. Of course it's powerful when you start the game.

 

But as I said: a ranger with flanking and Stalker's Link has a higher ACC with his auto attacks in the early game with 3 PER than a paladin with 20 PER.

 

I still wouldn't recommend 3 PER - but you can go with 10 and be happy.

 

Some stats - when you combine them with certain items - can be more important than PER. For example I only recently soloed some WM bounties with a dual wielding monk with Veteran's Recovery & Shod-in-Faith. I maxed MIG, CON and INT, dumped DEX to 4 and left PER at 10 and he did great. Then I leveled the stats towards max PER and he couldn't do it anymore because he died too quickly while his DPS couldn't balance this by killing the foes more quickly. This is the late game of course where 10 ACC don't matter as much as in the early game. You have more debuffs, more ACC buffs and you ACC has leveled with you. 10 ACC take up much less percentage of your overall ACC then.

 

Against dragons (where you need every bit of ACC you can get) it is a different case...

So you're saying bounties are even more late game than dragons?

But thanks for confirming my point while denying it. :D

I'll gladly repeat myself and try to say it more clearly this time.

Per has more IMPACT than dex.

It doesn't matter whether you can do with less in the lategame, just cause you have gained more ACC through leveling.

This is MUCH more true for dex, since you have gained durgan refined among other things.

But ACC is so important because of hit and miss. And as your example with dragons shows this is not only so in lowlevel.

Soloing is a much better example than having a party and being buffed by a priest, let's try to remember we wanted to see the impact a single stat has and that's much easier to see if less factors blur the impact of our stat choice.

[Boeroer]

No, but normally the bounty guys don't have stellar defenses. Dragons on the other side have, and it's difficult to even graze them at mid levels. So that's a situation in which I also would favour PER above anything else. Not so much in mob fights. But since dragons are only a tiny part of the game I wouldn't say that what works best against them works best in every situation.

 

However - I don't think we truly disagree.

 

I (for example) agree that PER has more impact than DEX in general. But I wouldn't say this is correct for every char or situation. It all comes down to your build(s). A ranger who uses reloading weapons (and doesn't switch) will probably be bad with 3 DEX 20 PER but maybe not so much with 3 PER and 20 DEX (again: higher levels). A melee rogue with 20 PER and 3 RES can be a really bad DPS guy because he dies too often to do enough damage throughout a fight. With 3 PER and 20 RES he might do more damage in an encounter.

 

So what has more impact? I think you can't answer that question with naming a stat. You have to look at a lot of circumstances. What would an offensive fighter build that focuses on max regeneration be worth with maxed PER but dumped MIG and INT? What would an interrupting barb do with 20 DEX and 3 PER?

 

DEX is not important for melee dual wielders, but for gunners or casters it can be. Especially if they can buff their own ACC but not their speed (wizards are lucky cause they can do both ).

 

I mean stuff like that. The whole system is too complex.

Edited June 18, 2016 by Boeroer

[Elric Galad]

 

 

Well, perception is indeed really good at low level on classes with natural average Acc.

 

Once your priest dings level 7, perception is nice but not critical anymore.

 

And if you don't have a priest in your party, and you don't play solo, you shouldn't even speak about powergaming in the first place !

The last sentence confuses me.

I can only fulfill your powergaming perspective by soloing with a priest? :D

Sorry the confusion.

I meant : if you're powergaming, you should have a priest in your party.

 

Unless you're powergaming solo, then you might not have a priest.

[Boeroer]

Hey, I'm powergaming all the time and seldomly have a priest.

 

...although they really make things easier.

[Elric Galad]

In my experience, playing without a priest is a bit like scaling up the difficulty level

[Raven Darkholme]

Hey, I'm powergaming all the time and seldomly have a priest.

 

...although they really make things easier.

same.

 

No, but normally the bounty guys don't have stellar defenses. Dragons on the other side have, and it's difficult to even graze them at mid levels. So that's a situation in which I also would favour PER above anything else. Not so much in mob fights. But since dragons are only a tiny part of the game I wouldn't say that what works best against them works best in every situation.

 

However - I don't think we truly disagree.

 

I (for example) agree that PER has more impact than DEX in general. But I wouldn't say this is correct for every char or situation. It all comes down to your build(s). A ranger who uses reloading weapons (and doesn't switch) will probably be bad with 3 DEX 20 PER but maybe not so much with 3 PER and 20 DEX (again: higher levels). A melee rogue with 20 PER and 3 RES can be a really bad DPS guy because he dies too often to do enough damage throughout a fight. With 3 PER and 20 RES he might do more damage in an encounter.

 

So what has more impact? I think you can't answer that question with naming a stat. You have to look at a lot of circumstances. What would an offensive fighter build that focuses on max regeneration be worth with maxed PER but dumped MIG and INT? What would an interrupting barb do with 20 DEX and 3 PER?

 

DEX is not important for melee dual wielders, but for gunners or casters it can be. Especially if they can buff their own ACC but not their speed (wizards are lucky cause they can do both ).

 

I mean stuff like that. The whole system is too complex.

YOu can't dump dex on gunners but 10 is completely fine. Then again those need max per missing is bad with slow attack speed.

[Boeroer]

:D

[Kaylon]

On ranged characters con/res are low priority - you don't have to choose between dex and per.

The only debate is for melee characters (who can also dump con/res once you have defensive mindweb)...

Tanks can dump dex/int and once your their defenses are maxed they can lower con and increase int.

Rogues can dump int/res (when they get the aggro they run - they don't need conc). Int helps only their afflictions which aren't needed in a party.

Barbs/monks can dump dex (dw and their speed buff will compensate) and once they get items with +conc (Celebrant's Gloves, Lost Periapt of the Winding Path) they can dump res too.

Also all characters have a limited number of special abilities and if you want to make them count you don't want them to miss/graze - and for that per>dex...

 

PS. With firearms I would never bother without the quick switch trick - and for that you don't need dex or any kind of speed. 

Edited June 19, 2016 by Kaylon

[Boeroer]

I wouldn't bother with firearms at all, so...

 

I would never dump PER - but I have no problem with dumped DEX.

 

But your examples only cover the clichée builds (and makes heavy use of retraining). The fighter solo run that somebody posted way back was all about regeneration and attack speed. No shield, not very high defenses, but maximum regeneration and attack speed. He used Spelltongue to prolong his buffs and healing (even used that trick for Wound Binding so it heals you up completely). He didn't need DEX too much because of his speedy dual wieldung setup, but he wanted maxed CON, MIG and INT. And he couldn't have maxed PER then I guess. He did a successful solo run (even said it was pretty easy) and had fun.

 

So that's what I mean when I say that PER>any other stat is not the universal truth.

 

However, it's true most of the time.  

 

Edited June 19, 2016 by Boeroer

[Blades of Vanatar]

Crickey you guys! You have probably turned over every possible rock there is in the Dyrwood to make sure you haven't missed any single possibility of maxed performance per build. Where do you get the time?

[Boeroer]

Time Warping. It's awesome. You get it at level 40+.

 

Parental Leave also works. You can get that a lot earlier...

Edited June 19, 2016 by Boeroer

[Kaylon]

I wouldn't bother with firearms at all, so...

 

I would never dump PER - but I have no problem with dumped DEX.

 

But your examples only cover the clichée builds (and makes heavy use of retraining). The fighter solo run that somebody posted way back was all about regeneration and attack speed. No shield, not very high defenses, but maximum regeneration and attack speed. He used Spelltongue to prolong his buffs and healing (even used that trick for Wound Binding so it heals you up completely). He didn't need DEX too much because of his speedy dual wieldung setup, but he wanted maxed CON, MIG and INT. And he couldn't have maxed PER then I guess. He did a successful solo run (even said it was pretty easy) and had fun.

 

So that's what I mean when I say that PER>any other stat is not the universal truth.

 

However, it's true most of the time.  

 

 

It's not clichée builds, it's optimized builds. You can always pick a different route, but it won't be better. 

 

PS. I remember this fighter build you mention, but he soloed only on easy... 

[Boeroer]

Maybe - but inspired by that I made a fire godlike dual sabre regeneration monk like that fighter (10 PER, MIG, CON INT max - dumped DEX though) and soloed upscaled Nalrend a few days ago on PoTD without any problems (I have to admit I "abused" Battle Forged plus Flame Shield a bit - because those work with Turning Wheel and Scion of Flame as well as with Blood Testament Gloves(!), which is pretty nasty - will post a build later). Also tried it with more PER and less MIG and CON and it didn't work as well. I only used one potion of Spirit Shield, one potion of Major Regeneration and a potion of Flame Shield. No food, no scrolls, no special PC talents, no prostitutes, no resting bonus. Camping Bonus was +60% healing. It seemed to be quite good. Can't say if it's optimzed, but it required no special tactics (besides switching to the solace shield once I got knocked prone, but I always do that when it comes to those ogres). Just attacked and spammed Torment's Reach while clubs hit my face...

 

But it's true that DEX in this case is quite worthless. But PER at 10 works best (in this encounter, with this build - at lvl 16). Whatever - I admit that in most cases PER has the most impact. But still isn#t worth anything if you're k.o.  

[Kaylon]

Maybe - but inspired by that I made a fire godlike dual sabre regeneration monk like that fighter (10 PER, MIG, CON INT max - dumped DEX though) and soloed upscaled Nalrend a few days ago on PoTD without any problems (I have to admit I "abused" Battle Forged plus Flame Shield a bit - because those work with Turning Wheel and Scion of Flame as well as with Blood Testament Gloves(!), which is pretty nasty - will post a build later). Also tried it with more PER and less MIG and CON and it didn't work as well. I only used one potion of Spirit Shield, one potion of Major Regeneration and a potion of Flame Shield. No food, no scrolls, no special PC talents, no prostitutes, no resting bonus. Camping Bonus was +60% healing. It seemed to be quite good. Can't say if it's optimzed, but it required no special tactics (besides switching to the solace shield once I got knocked prone, but I always do that when it comes to those ogres). Just attacked and spammed Torment's Reach while clubs hit my face...

 

But it's true that DEX in this case is quite worthless. But PER at 10 works best (in this encounter, with this build - at lvl 16). Whatever - I admit that in most cases PER has the most impact. But still isn#t worth anything if you're k.o.

Of course monks shouldn't drop mig/con, the optimum is to dump res and use instead an item with +conc (try Lost Periapt of the Winding Path) like I said previously.

[Boeroer]

I know it, but that amulet comes really late.

 

For most of the game you will be interrupted to death when you solo with 3 RES - if you don't want to hit & run all the time. Celebrant's Gloves or Potion of Spirit Shield work ok until you get that amulet though. But actually I like taking St. Borragias Tears to absolutly maximize the constant self heals (via Athletics, Potion of Major Regeneration, Scroll of Moonwell, Veteran's Recovery and Shod-in-Faith) and don't drop RES.

The performance feels better and more smooth this way. I think I did this bounty more than 15 times now with this char to test the crap out of him and that's my experience (that is influenced by playstyle of course - I don't like micromanagement and pausing every thrid second too much by the way). 

 

Like I said: at this stage 5 or 8 ACC don't make a big difference to me (I know it does mathematically, but I can't tell the difference while doing this bounty).

But I feel a notable difference between 10 and 3 RES against that mob of hard hitting enemies with high ACC and interrupt values (not to forget the constant knockdowns) - not only because of the lower deflection, but the constant interrupts that I'm eating (even while using potions or items for concentration). That is really bad if you have 4 DEX and want to sip potions while getting hit by ogres' clubs, multiple Plague of Insects, Stag's Horn and whatnot. And of course it doesn't help that drinking a potion is bugged as hell - but it is like it is and we have to work with or around it. It works better with 10 RES and 10 PER than with 3 RES and 17 PER. At least for me in this situation and encounter. Against fewer but harder enemies (less hits/interrupts, higher defenses) this might be the wrong tactic though.

 

And of course you can say: "You should use a figurine for distraction so that it eats those Plague of Insects, then you could do with lower RES and more PER" - true. But I want to know how tough this guy is and what he can achieve on his own. I need to balance defense and offense. To much of a tank and he will die because he can't kill the enemies quickly enough (actually a big problem of all my melee solo fighters I tried) - to much of a glasscannon and he will die because his endurance runs out too fast or he gets disabled all the time - so I don't use summons and also no mind control (unless it's an integral part of the build of course).

 

So I wouldn't call it the universal optimum to dump RES - but it's true that in many situations it is (and of course if you're in a party).

 

By the way: I really like discussing with you guys. It's enlightening, all civilized and also polite enough and proofs that an internet forum is not necessarily a place where the unpleasant fukkards meet.

Edited June 20, 2016 by Boeroer

[Kaylon]

Well, you tested an endgame build with a high level bounty and I suggested the best option for that. My point however was you don't have to drop mig/con to optimize a monk, but instead his resolve. Before getting the amulet you can always use a priest with Holy Meditation or Celebrant's Gloves.

 

And if you solo it's best to keep res at 10 with items, dex at 3 and spread your points between mig, con, per and int. In ch.2 you can get rather fast the ring from Darzir which allows droping base resolve to 7 and then run with 17 base  in your 4 main stats.