mass shooting in orlando

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

 

 

 

Well... no. I said that American culture has a weird obsession with guns, seeing them as symbols of freedom and rugged individualism, and given that mass shootings are a uniquely American phenomena, the culture surrounding guns and the societal perception thereof is likely a contributing factor in that.

 

Except they're not.  That's completely false.  Mass shootings have happened and continue to happen all over the world.  In fact, if you take a ratio of mass shooting deaths compared to population, the US doesn't even make the top 5 (admittedly this chart doesn't include 2014, 2015, or 2016):

 

 

 

I'm mainly ragging on the original source, not Keyrock for posting it 

 

 

I am, on the other hand, because even the most cursory look at that frikkin' chart reveals that the USA had more than 12 times as many such incidents than the country with the next highest rate of incidence (and almost 40 times as many as half the countries shown). To claim that the US is not an extreme outlier strikes me as incredibly contrived in light of that.

[Malcador]

Wonder what they count as a rampage shooting. As for it being uniquely American, surprised no one thought of Mexico or Brazil or Canada.

[Gorgon]

Gun control legislation won't work because it won't be ambitious enough. If you could somehow dismantle the entire domestic market of the firearms industry and make them illegal to trade between individuals, ad several more extreme measures, I am certain that mass shootings will go down. That's not what the american people want though.

 

So, this is the price you pay for the wide gun satuation and availability. Don't pretend that shootings have nothing to do with the availability of guns though, that's a peculiar American delusion that annoys me every time I hear it.  

[Zoraptor]

Wonder what they count as a rampage shooting. As for it being uniquely American, surprised no one thought of Mexico or Brazil or Canada.

 

 

Mexico is included, as is Canada. Canada is on the pictured chart 2nd from bottom, Mexico isn't as it had too few deaths (2). It's definitely not uniquely american anyway, but I'd safely say that it's disproportionately so when compared to the other OECD countries as a whole.

 

What constitutes a rampage killing is the biggest question. Buggered if I know, despite everyone describing them as OECD Rampage Shooting Index data or similar there's no OECD page on it and the chart sourcing for the total deaths is to a now defunct page. Presumably it involves mass (well, it includes some single death incidents so go figure) gun violence which has no 'criminal' intention except for the act itself, ie cannot be because of drug cartels fighting over territory or similar but the sole criminal act has to be the commission of the mass shooting.

Edited June 13, 2016 by Zoraptor

[Fighter]

 

I am, on the other hand, because even the most cursory look at that frikkin' chart reveals that the USA had more than 12 times as many such incidents than the country with the next highest rate of incidence (and almost 40 times as many as half the countries shown). To claim that the US is not an extreme outlier strikes me as incredibly contrived in light of that.

 

 

12 times as many incidents and a more than 35 times larger population. You can't just ignore that. His point stands.

[Malcador]

 

Wonder what they count as a rampage shooting. As for it being uniquely American, surprised no one thought of Mexico or Brazil or Canada.

 

Mexico is included, as is Canada. Canada is on the pictured chart 2nd from bottom, Mexico isn't as it had too few deaths (2). It's definitely not uniquely american anyway, but I'd safely say that it's disproportionately so when compared to the other OECD countries as a whole.

 

What constitutes a rampage killing is the biggest question. Buggered if I know, despite everyone describing them as OECD Rampage Shooting Index data or similar there's no OECD page on it and the chart sourcing for the total deaths is to a now defunct page. Presumably it involves mass (well, it includes some single death incidents so go figure) gun violence which has no 'criminal' intention except for the act itself, ie cannot be because of drug cartels fighting over territory or similar but the sole criminal act has to be the commission of the mass shooting.

Not in the chart, just in thinking that only happens in the US. Just wonder how many corpses you have to pile up to get the Rampage achievement. I would guess 5, myself

[Gromnir]

 

 

Wonder what they count as a rampage shooting. As for it being uniquely American, surprised no one thought of Mexico or Brazil or Canada.

Mexico is included, as is Canada. Canada is on the pictured chart 2nd from bottom, Mexico isn't as it had too few deaths (2). It's definitely not uniquely american anyway, but I'd safely say that it's disproportionately so when compared to the other OECD countries as a whole.

 

What constitutes a rampage killing is the biggest question. Buggered if I know, despite everyone describing them as OECD Rampage Shooting Index data or similar there's no OECD page on it and the chart sourcing for the total deaths is to a now defunct page. Presumably it involves mass (well, it includes some single death incidents so go figure) gun violence which has no 'criminal' intention except for the act itself, ie cannot be because of drug cartels fighting over territory or similar but the sole criminal act has to be the commission of the mass shooting.

Not in the chart, just in thinking that only happens in the US. Just wonder how many corpses you have to pile up to get the Rampage achievement. I would guess 5, myself

 

4

 

"The FBI defines “mass shooting” as any incident where at least four people were murdered with a gun."

 

http://crimeresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/everytown-mass-shooting-analysis1.pdf

 

no doubt there is other standards, but might as well use fbi given that folks (mistakenly) seem to think that mass shootings is uniquely american. 

 

as fighter observes, compare US to individual european nations is unfair given the population disparity.  reverse and compare wisconsin to the eu?  'course not.  the charts keyrock and Gromnir linked recognize the population disparity. 

 

"The CPRC has also collected data on the worst mass public shootings, those cases where at least 15 people were killed in the attack.

 

"There were 16 cases where at least 15 people were killed. Out of those cases, four were in the United States, two in Germany, France, and the United Kingdom.

 

"But the U.S. has a population four times greater than Germany’s and five times the U.K.’s, so on a per-capita basis the U.S. ranks low in comparison — actually, those two countries would have had a frequency of attacks 1.96 (Germany) and 2.46 (UK) times higher.

 

"Small countries such as Norway, Israel and Australia may have only one major attack each, one-fourth of what the U.S. has suffered, but the US population is vastly greater.  If they suffered attacks at a rate adjusted for their population, Norway, Israel and Australia would have had attacks that were respectively 16, 11, and 3 times greater than the US."

 

etc.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[BruceVC]

Gun control legislation won't work because it won't be ambitious enough. If you could somehow dismantle the entire domestic market of the firearms industry and make them illegal to trade between individuals, ad several more extreme measures, I am certain that mass shootings will go down. That's not what the american people want though.

 

So, this is the price you pay for the wide gun satuation and availability. Don't pretend that shootings have nothing to do with the availability of guns though, that's a peculiar American delusion that annoys me every time I hear it.  

Hate to dispute any point about Gun Control in the USA but if we honest I dont think a terrorist attack by an ISIS affiliate is about the availability of guns? Because this type of person has made his mind up to attack the USA, so the getting of a gun will just be a formality 

 

But the other  various shootings were about easy gun control, like Sandy Hook?

[Namutree]

The Christian far right has most likely nothing to do with this hideous act of Omar's.

100% confident this had NOTHING to do with the christian right. So you got that right.

Edited June 13, 2016 by Namutree

[Gromnir]

last comment from us.

 

many folks on these boards, Gromnir included, enjoy mocking the way trump panders to the lowest common denominator. trump wants to make america great again?  what the hell does that even mean? he blames muslims and mexicans for violence and claims that something must be done 'bout such folks.  trump tells us that we gotta be tougher when handling foreign enemies and allies. etc.

 

...

 

trump is notorious for his emotional appeals that resonate with the less educated portions o' our populace. there is a sizeable percentage o' the voting demographic who do not realize that trump gots no actual concrete action plans.  worse, when trump does have a method in mind for handling a problem such as muslim violence, his solution is typical complete and utter unfeasible and even illegal.  

 

like it or not, the typical cry from the left for gun control following a mass shooting is actual classic trump.  many liberal politicians take advantage o' the emotionally charged atmosphere following a mass shooting to appeal to voters with a meaningless demand for increased gun control. most americans, particular after a mass shooting, is gonna poll in favor o' some kinda increase in gun control. politicians is aware o' the public mood and take advantage o' the situation by making wholly vacuous appeals for increased firearms safety regulations.  we got a ridiculous number o' firearms in this country that is not gonna disappear with any kinda gun control legislation and the Constitution limits any meaningful efforts at gun control regardless.  the vague action plans to curb gun violence offered up by the left in the wake o' sandy hook or orlando is either complete impractical or largely pointless, but such stuff resonates with voters who is justifiably angry and distraught. it costs the left nothing to demand change.  when change fails to materialize, the left can then blame on the nra and judges... or just wait for the next orlando.

 

those folks who mock trump for his ridiculous and empty appeals to the lowest common denominator better look to what the left does in wake o' mass shootings... and for those folks who buy into such appeals, you might consider that in this case, you is part o' the lowest common denominator.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[BruceVC]

last comment from us.

 

many folks on these boards, Gromnir included, enjoy mocking the way trump panders to the lowest common denominator. trump wants to make america great again?  what the hell does that even mean? he blames muslims and mexicans for violence and claims that something must be done 'bout such folks.  trump tells us that we gotta be tougher when handling foreign enemies and allies. etc.

 

...

 

trump is notorious for his emotional appeals that resonate with the less educated portions o' our populace. there is a sizeable percentage o' the voting demographic who do not realize that trump gots no actual concrete action plans.  worse, when trump does have a method in mind for handling a problem such as muslim violence, his solution is typical complete and utter unfeasible and even illegal.  

 

like it or not, the typical cry from the left for gun control following a mass shooting is actual classic trump.  many liberal politicians take advantage o' the emotionally charged atmosphere following a mass shooting to appeal to voters with a meaningless demand for increased gun control. most americans, particular after a mass shooting, is gonna poll in favor o' some kinda increase in gun control. politicians is aware o' the public mood and take advantage o' the situation by making wholly vacuous appeals for increased firearms safety regulations.  we got a ridiculous number o' firearms in this country that is not gonna disappear with any kinda gun control legislation and the Constitution limits any meaningful efforts at gun control regardless.  the vague action plans to curb gun violence offered up by the left in the wake o' sandy hook or orlando is either complete impractical or largely pointless, but such stuff resonates with voters who is justifiably angry and distraught. it costs the left nothing to demand change.  when change fails to materialize, the left can then blame on the nra and judges... or just wait for the next orlando.

 

those folks who mock trump for his ridiculous and empty appeals to the lowest common denominator better look to what the left does in wake o' mass shootings... and for those folks who buy into such appeals, you might consider that in this case, you is part o' the lowest common denominator.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Gromnir before you go I want to ask you something 

 

I may be wrong but it has taken you a long time to comment about Trump, I was expecting you to start attacking his policies much earlier. IMO your view on these matters carries  a lot of credibility

 

Arent you concerned by his demagoguery? And what about his general vitriol towards Latino's?

 

Can he actually deport 11 million people and build the Trump wall? 

[213374U]

I was inspired by last nights events to go buy another weapon that some would label an assault rifle, as well as take further steps I should have taken long ago to arm those around me that I care for.

 

What? How does a mass shooting inspire you to buy a long gun?

 

Unless you are also getting serious training to go along those new toys, they are likely to do you little good in a situation like this, and more than likely to make matters worse. I'm not against people taking self-defense seriously, but responsible, effective EDC is a much more serious commitment than what your knee-jerk reaction suggests, though I may be reading you wrong.

 

Beyond that, yeah. I don't see how these kinds of occurrences could be better prevented, beyond perhaps a more robust early warning/counseling system for people with issues, and more research into the root causes of those issues. I fear that strict(er) gun control laws will just push people to use other means, and laws only affect law-abiding citizens anyway. Not like a bomb vest/pipe bomb is rocket surgery, and you can build one with off-the-shelf stuff.

[Gfted1]

A truly tragic situation.

 

Perhaps if we ramp up PRISM to surveil all US communications, and set it to sniff for any mention of certain keywords, then they can be intercepted before anything happens.

[Meshugger]

A truly EXCELLENT, GLORIOUS situation FOR ALLAH.

 

Perhaps if we ramp up PRISM to surveil all US communications, and set it to sniff for any mention of certain keywords, LIKE SLAUGHTERING KUFARS FOR INSULTING MUHAMMAD (PBUH) AND DECAPITATE THE PRESIDENT, then they can be intercepted before anything happens.

 

Good greif, i hope that you're joking.

[Malcador]

A truly tragic situation.

 

Perhaps if we ramp up PRISM to surveil all US communications, and set it to sniff for any mention of certain keywords, then they can be intercepted before anything happens.

Yes. Until they start arresting people for saying things about weaponized drones

[Gfted1]

Good greif, i hope that you're joking.

Kinda sorta. Imo, something will have to give eventually. These cases aren't going away, they will become more and more prevalent. I think we all agree that banning guns isn't going to work so whats next? We could of course ignore it and just deal with the tragedies as they happen or we could try to be proactive. This guys weapon purchases were 100% legit. Now what?

[Hurlshort]

 

am not ignoring the tragedy, but is no way to see this violence as somehow representative o' a greater shift towards violence by americans as a whole towards the lgbt community. any suggestion that the religious right as a whole made this specific act o' violence more likely cannot be advocated with any seriousness.  am not dismissing that lgbt folks continue to be unfairly discriminated 'gainst by their fellow citizens, but to use this incident as an excuse to promote a larger crusade 'gainst the religious right would be unjust.  

 

 

Well I said nothing about a crusade, I called for teaching tolerance.  People freaked out about my rather short statement, but I think I'll go all in anyways.

 

Everyone is quick to jump on the ISIS bandwagon on this, but this guy didn't target Americans in general or make a political statement, he went after a gay nightclub.  This is an attack on the LGBT community by a religious nutjob.  Just because he is Muslim, instead of Christian, doesn't mean you just ignore the role religion played in this attack.

 

Honestly I'm probably not doing a good job explaining myself, but I think this article does a better job expressing what I'm trying to get across:

 

http://www.christiantoday.com/article/orlando.shooting.why.christians.must.not.stay.quiet/88192.htm

Edited June 13, 2016 by Hurlshot

[BruceVC]

A truly tragic situation.

 

Perhaps if we ramp up PRISM to surveil all US communications, and set it to sniff for any mention of certain keywords, then they can be intercepted before anything happens.

 

 

A truly EXCELLENT, GLORIOUS situation FOR ALLAH.

 

Perhaps if we ramp up PRISM to surveil all US communications, and set it to sniff for any mention of certain keywords, LIKE SLAUGHTERING KUFARS FOR INSULTING MUHAMMAD (PBUH) AND DECAPITATE THE PRESIDENT, then they can be intercepted before anything happens.

 

Good greif, i hope that you're joking.

 

@ gfted1

 

  okay you win, best comment of the week

 

@ meshugger

 

Can I tell you Gfted1 suggestion is not silly but can be implemented successfully, we just need to consider a few things together..anyone can comment?

 

Once again the Americans are fortunate to have the worlds most effective and comprehensive system to analyze data..Prism

 

It can be tweaked but the real questions should  be things like

 

• Would this type of lone wolf use the Internet to communicate his plans
• Would he actually communicate with anyone 

Prism can do extraordinary things but the data or device has to be on a TCP/IP connection 

[BruceVC]

 

 

am not ignoring the tragedy, but is no way to see this violence as somehow representative o' a greater shift towards violence by americans as a whole towards the lgbt community. any suggestion that the religious right as a whole made this specific act o' violence more likely cannot be advocated with any seriousness.  am not dismissing that lgbt folks continue to be unfairly discriminated 'gainst by their fellow citizens, but to use this incident as an excuse to promote a larger crusade 'gainst the religious right would be unjust.  

 

 

Well I said nothing about a crusade, I called for teaching tolerance.  People freaked out about my rather short statement, but I think I'll go all in anyways.

 

Everyone is quick to jump on the ISIS bandwagon on this, but this guy didn't target Americans in general or make a political statement, he went after a gay nightclub.  This is an attack on the LGBT community by a religious nutjob.  Just because he is Muslim, instead of Christian, doesn't mean you just ignore the role religion played in this attack.

 

Honestly I'm probably not doing a good job explaining myself, but I think this article does a better job expressing what I'm trying to get across:

 

http://www.christiantoday.com/article/orlando.shooting.why.christians.must.not.stay.quiet/88192.htm

 

I think you making an important point but I just want to be sure I understand it 

 

That article is correctly raising attention to violent attacks on the LGBT community? I have huge respect for any religious group that is prepared to support the LGBT community...its not that common to see  

[Meshugger]

 

Good greif, i hope that you're joking.

Kinda sorta. Imo, something will have to give eventually. These cases aren't going away, they will become more and more prevalent. I think we all agree that banning guns isn't going to work so whats next? We could of course ignore it and just deal with the tragedies as they happen or we could try to be proactive. This guys weapon purchases were 100% legit. Now what?

 

 

I was just ****ing with you, relax

 

But truth to be told, the whole thing fell apart on two distinct factors: 1) the guy had all the training and clearance to get a gun lawfully anywhere in the world and 2) He was on a watchlist on the FBI and had been called into question at least twice. 

 

So all this talk about banning guns or increasing is survaillence is moot because those two elements fell on a fundamental level. The failure was the necessary people to do their jobs properly, but that sounds so boring that i can bet it is forgotten within a month.

[Gfted1]

I didn't realize that my post came across as tense. Weird.

 

Maybe it wouldn't help in this particular case but it would in many others. Most people cant resist the lure of running their mouths on social media and telephone so I think it could catch a lot of them.

[Gorgon]

 

Gun control legislation won't work because it won't be ambitious enough. If you could somehow dismantle the entire domestic market of the firearms industry and make them illegal to trade between individuals, ad several more extreme measures, I am certain that mass shootings will go down. That's not what the american people want though.

 

So, this is the price you pay for the wide gun satuation and availability. Don't pretend that shootings have nothing to do with the availability of guns though, that's a peculiar American delusion that annoys me every time I hear it.  

Hate to dispute any point about Gun Control in the USA but if we honest I dont think a terrorist attack by an ISIS affiliate is about the availability of guns? Because this type of person has made his mind up to attack the USA, so the getting of a gun will just be a formality 

 

But the other  various shootings were about easy gun control, like Sandy Hook?

 

'Affiliate' that just means some moron who wanted his 15 minuites of fame. Who knows why anyone does anything. Whether his dog spoke to him and told him to kill, or God. Same difference. 

[BruceVC]

 

 

Gun control legislation won't work because it won't be ambitious enough. If you could somehow dismantle the entire domestic market of the firearms industry and make them illegal to trade between individuals, ad several more extreme measures, I am certain that mass shootings will go down. That's not what the american people want though.

 

So, this is the price you pay for the wide gun satuation and availability. Don't pretend that shootings have nothing to do with the availability of guns though, that's a peculiar American delusion that annoys me every time I hear it.  

Hate to dispute any point about Gun Control in the USA but if we honest I dont think a terrorist attack by an ISIS affiliate is about the availability of guns? Because this type of person has made his mind up to attack the USA, so the getting of a gun will just be a formality 

 

But the other  various shootings were about easy gun control, like Sandy Hook?

 

'Affiliate' that just means some moron who wanted his 15 minuites of fame. Who knows why anyone does anything. Whether his dog spoke to him and told him to kill, or God. Same difference. 

 

I hear you, it does seem pointless 

 

But ISIS does have a mandate to attack certain Western countries...yet all these attacks do is galvanize support within the USA to destroy ISIS entirely

 

Why provoke the USA .....I'm sorry but this just confirms how shortsighted and stupid these groups are 

[Gorgon]

They don't have another choice. It's not like they could sue for peace and secure their gains in Syria. All they have is the PR potential of terrorist attacks and  being seen as fighting the west. 

[213374U]

Maybe it wouldn't help in this particular case but it would in many others. Most people cant resist the lure of running their mouths on social media and telephone so I think it could catch a lot of them.

 

Nope