mass shooting in orlando

[Wrath of Dagon]

We have a guy who attacks a gay nightclub because of intolerance, and we have a religion that everyone accuses of being intolerant, and we have a terrorist group that doesn't tolerate anything that is different...

 

And the solution is to be less tolerant?

Yes kids, we must all practice indiscriminateness. The liberal mind explained : http://townhall.com/columnists/johnhawkins/2016/06/18/why-liberals-support-muslims-who-hate-everything-they-stand-for-n2180270

 

 

 

 

I know we go over this stuff with alarming regularity, but the amount of intolerance that gets thrown around here is depressing. How does that solve any of these issues?

 

And you can have a tolerant society that still expects newcomers to follow the letter of the law and make steps to embrace the culture they are joining. They are not mutually exclusive, quite the opposite. Lead by example.

 

What activity, law or behaviour previously not liked by western society should be tolerated? What is to be gained by perpetually accepting such acts?

 

If you answer with new restaurants and interesting music then you have missed what people are being upset about.

 

 

I must not be explaining myself well enough here.

 

You can be tolerant and still have a reasonable expectation that your laws will be followed and your culture will be respected.  You do not need to accept such acts, but you do not need to condemn the many for the sins of a few.

 

You have a mentally unstable homophobic Muslim man who is the son of a Afghani immigrant (who is also pretty unstable.)  He stockpiled weapons and then killed 30 people in the name of ISIS.  

 

Saying the solution to this is to condemn all Muslims is no better than those that want to ban all guns.  They are both short sighted and reactionary, and ignore the vast numbers of peaceful Muslims/responsible gun owners.  Islam, guns, even his use of ISIS; these are all just tools that he used to carry out a terrible tragedy.  They obviously amplified his instability, and that should not be ignored.  But how come no one focuses on the root of this issue?  He was a crazy person.  This was evident long before the shooting.  He had issues in school and there were red flags throughout his life.  

 

We have a serious lack of mental health care in the US, and no one seems to be addressing it.  That's my take on this.  It isn't going to get better by kicking out Muslims.

 

Yes, he's insane, and his wife is insane, and his entire family is insane. You're now scapegoating the mentally ill, how intolerant of you. http://nypost.com/2016/06/18/why-the-lone-wolf-terrorist-is-a-myth

[BruceVC]

 

We have a guy who attacks a gay nightclub because of intolerance, and we have a religion that everyone accuses of being intolerant, and we have a terrorist group that doesn't tolerate anything that is different...

 

And the solution is to be less tolerant?

Yes kids, we must all practice indiscriminateness. The liberal mind explained : http://townhall.com/columnists/johnhawkins/2016/06/18/why-liberals-support-muslims-who-hate-everything-they-stand-for-n2180270

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, he's insane, and his wife is insane, and his entire family is insane. You're now scapegoating the mentally ill, how intolerant of you. http://nypost.com/2016/06/18/why-the-lone-wolf-terrorist-is-a-myth

 

 

This post made me laugh because of its cynical nature ... " his wife is insane "

[213374U]

I must not be explaining myself well enough here.

You are explaining yourself plenty well. It just seems that some members here are bent on equivocating by making up absurd and extreme scenarios, and filing them under tolerance, so they can more easily claim that "tolerance" is a failed idea.

 

Religious tolerance, as proposed by such as Locke, does not include accepting religiously-mandated violations of the law of the land. Indeed, for tolerance to work, all members of society must agree that secular authorities ("the magistrate") supersede religious authorities in all matters except strictly those of cult and faith, and only when those do not come in conflict with the law of the land. This is what makes religious tolerance work as a basis for peaceful coexistence of different religious groups.

 

That being said, there is a problem, and that is that Islam is still a religion imposed by government fiat in many countries. This is in direct conflict with the above, and it's not immediate for all muslims that such a thing is fundamentally incompatible with post-Enlightenment western culture. It certainly doesn't help that we tend to bomb places where Islam is second to secular law (cf. Iraq), and as Zoraptor pointed out, prop up regimes where the opposite is true.

[BruceVC]

 

I must not be explaining myself well enough here.

 

 

That being said, there is a problem, and that is that Islam is still a religion imposed by government fiat in many countries. This is in direct conflict with the above, and it's not immediate for all muslims that such a thing is fundamentally incompatible with post-Enlightenment western culture. It certainly doesn't help that we tend to bomb places where Islam is second to secular law (cf. Iraq), and as Zoraptor pointed out, prop up regimes where the opposite is true.o=

Oh so this is  a fault of the West and basically radical Islam is caused by ...how did you frame it "muslims that such a thing is fundamentally incompatible with post-Enlightenment western culture " 

 

No I reject that completely, why dont we go back to the  actual root cause and creation of al-Qaeda as ISIS came into existence because of the actions of AQ

 

So that means we need to blame Bin Laden and he was only created because of the USSR invasion of Afghanistan ....so okay yes I agree

 

Its the Russians who are to blame   

[Meshugger]

 

 

I know we go over this stuff with alarming regularity, but the amount of intolerance that gets thrown around here is depressing. How does that solve any of these issues?

 

And you can have a tolerant society that still expects newcomers to follow the letter of the law and make steps to embrace the culture they are joining. They are not mutually exclusive, quite the opposite. Lead by example.

 

What activity, law or behaviour previously not liked by western society should be tolerated? What is to be gained by perpetually accepting such acts?

 

If you answer with new restaurants and interesting music then you have missed what people are being upset about.

 

 

I must not be explaining myself well enough here.

 

You can be tolerant and still have a reasonable expectation that your laws will be followed and your culture will be respected.  You do not need to accept such acts, but you do not need to condemn the many for the sins of a few.

 

You have a mentally unstable homophobic Muslim man who is the son of a Afghani immigrant (who is also pretty unstable.)  He stockpiled weapons and then killed 30 people in the name of ISIS.  

 

Saying the solution to this is to condemn all Muslims is no better than those that want to ban all guns.  They are both short sighted and reactionary, and ignore the vast numbers of peaceful Muslims/responsible gun owners.  Islam, guns, even his use of ISIS; these are all just tools that he used to carry out a terrible tragedy.  They obviously amplified his instability, and that should not be ignored.  But how come no one focuses on the root of this issue?  He was a crazy person.  This was evident long before the shooting.  He had issues in school and there were red flags throughout his life.  

 

We have a serious lack of mental health care in the US, and no one seems to be addressing it.  That's my take on this.  It isn't going to get better by kicking out Muslims. 

 

 

As i said, what kind of tolerance are we talking about? It's quite clear that people are fed up with the negative results from emerging islamic societies living as state of their own in their indigeous countries and wish it to stop. Historically we have the balkans, and now history repeats itself with second-generation muslims wanting to turn their host countries into the very countries their parents fled from. Why should such a policy be continued? Why should that be tolerated? Watch the video in http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/87643-mass-shooting-in-orlando/?p=1821765 to understand what i am talking about.

 

No one is arguing against their law abiding Iranian dentist whose house has the biggest christmas lights during the holidays and his poker-nights in the garage at thursdays.

[Guard Dog]

This just in: Mateen was actually CHRISTIAN. Yes upon latest revision the DOJ has determined he was not praising Allah in the way commonly associated with islam, he was actually praising God which as we all know is how the western christian faiths refer to Him. http://www.infowars.com/doj-replaces-allah-with-god-in-edited-orlando-terrorist-transcript/

 

And always remember comrade citizens, War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery and Ignorance is Strength. 

[BruceVC]

This just in: Mateen was actually CHRISTIAN. Yes upon latest revision the DOJ has determined he was not praising Allah in the way commonly associated with islam, he was actually praising God which as we all know is how the western christian faiths refer to Him. http://www.infowars.com/doj-replaces-allah-with-god-in-edited-orlando-terrorist-transcript/

 

And always remember comrade citizens, War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery and Ignorance is Strength. 

 Minor rewording wont change what we already know and history will always use the account he was  a Muslim extremist 

[Guard Dog]

 

This just in: Mateen was actually CHRISTIAN. Yes upon latest revision the DOJ has determined he was not praising Allah in the way commonly associated with islam, he was actually praising God which as we all know is how the western christian faiths refer to Him. http://www.infowars.com/doj-replaces-allah-with-god-in-edited-orlando-terrorist-transcript/

 

And always remember comrade citizens, War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery and Ignorance is Strength. 

 Minor rewording wont change what we already know and history will always use the account he was  a Muslim extremist 

 

Why do you think the Obama administration is going to such lengths to censor all references to Islam from murderers own words? http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2016/06/19/lynch_partial_transcript_of_orlando_911_calls_will_have_references_to_isis_cut_out.html

[Wrath of Dagon]

https://twitter.com/20committee/status/744879005321539584

[213374U]

As i said, what kind of tolerance are we talking about? It's quite clear that people are fed up with the negative results from emerging islamic societies living as state of their own in their indigeous countries and wish it to stop. Historically we have the balkans, and now history repeats itself with second-generation muslims wanting to turn their host countries into the very countries their parents fled from. Why should such a policy be continued? Why should that be tolerated? Watch the video in http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/87643-mass-shooting-in-orlando/?p=1821765 to understand what i am talking about.

See, it's increasingly difficult to understand what you are talking about, when you keep moving the goalposts around. Now we are to refer to a video of something in Turkey, to understand some obscure overarching point regarding what second-generation muslims living in the US want? What "policy" are you talking about?

 

By the way: Turkey's regression is chiefly the work of Ottoman fetishist and reactionary extraordinaire Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, which is, as you well know, a valued ally of the west in the fight against communism terrorism illegal immigration.

 

edit: oh boy, GD linking Alex Jones' site. The seventh seal has been broken.

Edited June 20, 2016 by 213374U

[BruceVC]

https://twitter.com/20committee/status/744879005321539584

Sorry its not clear to me what the point is, can you summarize in a line or 2 ?

[Meshugger]

 

As i said, what kind of tolerance are we talking about? It's quite clear that people are fed up with the negative results from emerging islamic societies living as state of their own in their indigeous countries and wish it to stop. Historically we have the balkans, and now history repeats itself with second-generation muslims wanting to turn their host countries into the very countries their parents fled from. Why should such a policy be continued? Why should that be tolerated? Watch the video in http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/87643-mass-shooting-in-orlando/?p=1821765 to understand what i am talking about.

See, it's increasingly difficult to understand what you are talking about, when you keep moving the goalposts around. Now we are to refer to a video of something in Turkey, to understand some obscure overarching point regarding what second-generation muslims living in the US want? What "policy" are you talking about?

 

By the way: Turkey's regression is chiefly the work of Ottoman fetishist and reactionary extraordinaire Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, which is, as you well know, a valued ally of the west in the fight against communism terrorism illegal immigration.

 

edit: oh boy, GD linking Alex Jones' site. The seventh seal has been broken.

 

 

The question was tolerance. The video highlights problems existing in "secular" islamic countries, where the mob harasses people not following islamic traditions, this and other kinds of problems are imported with the people following them into western countries. Such problems are possible thanks to the current immigration policies. Should these acts be tolerated? It has also been become evident that the second and third generation muslims are radicalising, but the immigration wave continues from such countries. Should this be tolerated?

 

I ask this because tolerance implies that it you have to put up with things that you don't like. 

[Wrath of Dagon]

 

https://twitter.com/20committee/status/744879005321539584

Sorry its not clear to me what the point is, can you summarize in a line or 2 ?

 

You want me to summarize two lines in two lines? My post was in response to GD's post above, if that helps you.

[Elerond]

This just in: Mateen was actually CHRISTIAN. Yes upon latest revision the DOJ has determined he was not praising Allah in the way commonly associated with islam, he was actually praising God which as we all know is how the western christian faiths refer to Him. http://www.infowars.com/doj-replaces-allah-with-god-in-edited-orlando-terrorist-transcript/

 

And always remember comrade citizens, War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery and Ignorance is Strength. 

 

Allah (Allāh‎ = Arabic word referring to God in Abrahamic religions, it is same word for when they refer Christian or Jewish gods [because they believe them to be same entity as the god they worship]) it is believed to be just contraction of al ilāh (the God). Although lots of Muslims have tendency to use Allah instead of their native language version for God if their native language isn't Arabic. Also Arab Christians use Allah when they speak about their god. But anyway sounds quite stupid and strange to translate/change words in transcripts.

Edited June 20, 2016 by Elerond

[Guard Dog]

Yes that is true Allah and God is referring to the same thing. But they are going out of their way to change the narrative of this attack and it begs the question why. I'd be very interested in hearing everyone's opinions as to why it is so important to the Obama administration that the words of the killer be changed or omitted.

[Malcador]

I guess it is part of some hearts and minds approach.

[Meshugger]

Yes that is true Allah and God is referring to the same thing. But they are going out of their way to change the narrative of this attack and it begs the question why. I'd be very interested in hearing everyone's opinions as to why it is so important to the Obama administration that the words of the killer be changed or omitted.

 

It's in their best interest to throw the whole thing in the memory hole because 1) Their cozy diplomatic relationship with the house of Saud. 2) It goes against their narrative of minorities (their pets) behaving badly and they are embaressed by it. 

[Guard Dog]

 

 

edit: oh boy, GD linking Alex Jones' site. The seventh seal has been broken.

 

 True, not something I'd normally do. But he is making a big deal about it and it will be interesting to see where this conversation leads, if anywhere.

 

But fear not. I don't hold the conspiracy theorists like Alex Jones in high regard.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Because Obola lives in a reality of his own, and never lets facts interfere. Also known as "the narrative".

 

Edit: This whole administration looks to me strikingly like Stalin's Soviet government just before it was invaded by Germany. The front line commanders were not allowed to make any preparations for the invasion or even talk about the possibility, as this was considered provocative and panic mongering, even though it was obvious to those commanders that Germans were preparing for an imminent invasion.

Edited June 20, 2016 by Wrath of Dagon

[Guard Dog]

 

Yes that is true Allah and God is referring to the same thing. But they are going out of their way to change the narrative of this attack and it begs the question why. I'd be very interested in hearing everyone's opinions as to why it is so important to the Obama administration that the words of the killer be changed or omitted.

 

It's in their best interest to throw the whole thing in the memory hole because 1) Their cozy diplomatic relationship with the house of Saud. 2) It goes against their narrative of minorities (their pets) behaving badly and they are embaressed by it. 

 

Meshugger shoots... and scores. Everything is politics with these people.

[BruceVC]

Because Obola lives in a reality of his own, and never lets facts interfere. Also known as "the narrative".

 

Edit: This whole administration looks to me strikingly like Stalin's Soviet government just before it was invaded by Germany. The front line commanders were not allowed to make any preparations for the invasion or even talk about the possibility, as this was considered provocative and panic mongering, even though it was obvious to those commanders that Germans were preparing for an imminent invasion.

WOD now you are exaggerating 

[Wrath of Dagon]

Obola is hardly Stalin, but the psychology of trying to avoid disaster by ignoring reality is strikingly the same.

[Guard Dog]

Bruce I wouldn't dismiss the notion of willful ignorance out of hand. Personally I think it is more about "newspeak" to use Orwell's term rather than Obama seriously believing by not acknowledging a threat it won't be a threat. But he has given little explanation of why he makes the decisions he does so as I said before people draw their own conclusions. 

[Guard Dog]

The flip has flopped: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/06/20/fbi-doj-release-new-full-transcript-orlando-shooters-911-call.html

[redneckdevil]

The flip has flopped: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/06/20/fbi-doj-release-new-full-transcript-orlando-shooters-911-call.html

Just wow. The question is why? just wtf