European Refugee Crisis : Part 3

[BruceVC]

We can do that when people will accept that their lives are to become worse not better with time.

Until then the pressure for economic growth will continue.

But why should people believe something that isn't true when you say " people's lives are geting worse "  ?

 

This is the greatest era of mankind, this is a fact. We can cure more diseases, people live longer, more people are pulled out of living in extreme poverty than ever before, more people are educated than ever before and we recognize the rights of all people and previously marginalized groups ..human dignity matters. And these are just a few reasons why we live in the greatest age of mankind 

 

The human race is advancing....not going backwards

[pmp10]

Discussion was about migration, demographic and economic expectations.

You can't keep growing your economy and keep the same retirement age if you don't raise enough kids.

Europe (and most of developed world) does not, hence the need for migrants/refugees.

 

One alternative would be to give up on economy and let it shrink naturally.

But as long as most people are interested in improving their lot that's a no-go.

Edited August 20, 2016 by pmp10

[Elerond]

Discussion was about migration, demographic and economic expectations.

You can't keep growing your economy and keep the same retirement age if you don't raise enough kids.

Europe (and most of developed world) does not, hence the need for migrants/refugees.

 

One alternative would be to give up on economy and let it shrink naturally.

But as long as most people are interested in improving their lot that's a no-go.

 

Most countries need economical growth to keep paying their debts, which prevents natural shrinking of economy, as they face threat crashing economy. 

[Rosbjerg]

Then perhaps it's time to divorce ourselves from debt based growth? And the New Public Management ideals..

 

As it stands we're seeing growth for the ultra rich and austerity for everyone else. That's the kinda development that leads to fasiscm.

[Agiel]

As Bill Burr noted, the problem isn't big cars and not enough jobs, it's too many damn people. And not as in too many foreigners coming in, too many damn people on the planet, period.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sp3nsgTQNiI

Edited August 20, 2016 by Agiel

[Volourn]

POeople who make that argument can do their part to voluntarily curb population. It always starts with the individual.

[Agiel]

Bill Burr, again:

 

Edited August 20, 2016 by Agiel

[Meshugger]

wrong thread, whops!

Edited August 21, 2016 by Meshugger

[Chippy]

Our mayor in London is criticizing Trump for his views.  He's only been serving for about 5 mins, I think he's on the way to America to meet with other mayor's to discuss what they'll do (when I hope) Trump becomes president.  Interesting times.

[BruceVC]

Our mayor in London is criticizing Trump for his views.  He's only been serving for about 5 mins, I think he's on the way to America to meet with other mayor's to discuss what they'll do (when I hope) Trump becomes president.  Interesting times.

But do you blame him? Trump has unashamedly played the " Muslims are going to kll us all "  card....and the  mayor of London is a progressive Muslim who is also a committed UK citizen

 

IMO we need more Muslims in the public limelight  who are supportive  to the Western country they live in and are vocal about it, part of the perceived criticism towards some members of the Muslim community is they lack loyalty and don't want to integrate

 

And remember there is lots of misinformation about Muslims from some of Trumps supporters. I watched this week a women walk out of one of Trumps conventions and they interviewed her about what she thought of Trump

 

She honestly said  "  Trump is right, Obama is a Muslim and he wants to destroy the USA " 

 

How can people still be thinking Obama is a Muslim ?

[Namutree]

 

How can people still be thinking Obama is a Muslim ?

 

He eats pork, drinks alcohol, and he attended a christian church for years!

[Volourn]

Obama may not be a Muslim but he surely is a  (extremist) Muslim apologist. Those are even worse.

Edited August 22, 2016 by Volourn

[BruceVC]

Obama may not be a Muslim but he surely is a  (extremist) Muslim apologist. Those are even worse.

What is your definition of a Muslim apologist?

 

Can you give an example?

[Chippy]

 

Our mayor in London is criticizing Trump for his views.  He's only been serving for about 5 mins, I think he's on the way to America to meet with other mayor's to discuss what they'll do (when I hope) Trump becomes president.  Interesting times.

But do you blame him? Trump has unashamedly played the " Muslims are going to kll us all "  card....and the  mayor of London is a progressive Muslim who is also a committed UK citizen

 

IMO we need more Muslims in the public limelight  who are supportive  to the Western country they live in and are vocal about it, part of the perceived criticism towards some members of the Muslim community is they lack loyalty and don't want to integrate

 

And remember there is lots of misinformation about Muslims from some of Trumps supporters. I watched this week a women walk out of one of Trumps conventions and they interviewed her about what she thought of Trump

 

She honestly said  "  Trump is right, Obama is a Muslim and he wants to destroy the USA " 

 

How can people still be thinking Obama is a Muslim ?

 

 

I don't follow Obama, but it seems he is pretty far-left and my experience with leaders of that type is that they put their ideals before the law and justice.  As far as the mayor of London goes: http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/05/is-it-islamophobic-to-draw-attention-to-sadiq-khans-links-with-extremists/

 

An excerpt: "Khan himself gave evidence to the House of Commons Home Affairs Select Committee in which he said ‘there is a consensus among Islamic scholars that Mr Al-Qaradawi is not the extremist that he is painted as being’.

 

"So who is this Muslim scholar, who was warmly welcomed to London in 2004 by Ken Livingstone? Among other things, he’s the author of a book called The Lawful and Prohibited in Islam in which he justifies wife beating and discusses whether homosexuals should be killed. Most notoriously, he condones ‘martyrdom operations’, i.e. suicide bombings, against Israeli civilians, which he describes as ‘God’s justice’: ‘Allah Almighty is just; through his infinite wisdom he has given the weak a weapon the strong do not have and that is their ability to turn their bodies into bombs as Palestinians do.’ In spite of holding these views, Qaradawi is not an ‘extremist’ in Khan’s eyes".

 

Also, his family have ties to extremist groups.  Pretty concerning to me.  I once lived at the same address as a person who had committed minor fraud and while banking online, the internet timed out - for which my bank suspended my account for 3 months while they went through my entire finances with a fine tooth comb - all because the fraud was tied to the address, so find it kinda funny that the mayor of London gets a pass on the above and other questionable links to extremist groups.

 

As far as Trump scaremongering goes - I just see it as how leaders measure risk.  They know more than we do concerning threats, and public opinion is turning in Europe.  In London, extremists can stage a march, walk through the streets with signs saying: "The police are the terrorists", "Overthrow the government", "Kill the Prime minister", "Sharia Law for all" and nobody bats an eyelid.  When a bunch of white guys stage a peaceful protest at being below 10% of the population in an area their families lived in for four generations and stating that multiculturalism has failed because they're physically at risk walking through these areas - they get counter-protested and their lives are threatened by the Muslim citizens to the point of being escorted to safety by the police.

 

I always look for what leaders prioritize - Louisiana floods, Obama sends memo stating people shouldn't discriminate during the crisis and continues playing golf.  Trump wants to instigate a security based migrant system, fix the economy of the USA and Hilary Clinton calls for 550% increase in migration and talks about minor stuff like shutting down Brietbart.  And the Mayor of London is the same as Obama and Hilary Clinton - concerned with Trump, online policing of hate speech and bikini body posters, when there are Muslim patrols threatening anyone who walks through areas they're families have lived in for generations because now it's 'a Muslim area'.

 

I hope the mayor of London brings people together, but leaders need to get their priorities right.

[Hiro Protagonist]

Sweden No?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/refugee-crisis-asylum-seekers-sweden-applications-withdrawn-record-numbers-a7209231.html

 

 

 

Sweden sees record numbers of asylum seekers withdraw applications and leave
 

Sweden is no longer a utopia for asylum seekers, but the Swedish Government is offering migrants up to £3,500 each to go home

A record 4,542 asylum seekers withdrew their applications and left Sweden in the first eight months of 2016 as a result of long processing times, strict new rules on family reunion, and payouts to migrants who voluntarily returned to their country of origin.

There were also less than half as many new claims made between January and August 2016, as in the same period of 2015.

Sweden used to be one of Europe’s most popular destinations for migrants, with the number of asylum applications doubling between 2014 and 2015 to more than 160,000.

A high success rate – 55 per cent of claims were accepted in 2015 – combined with generous welfare benefits for asylum seekers, and a comparatively welcoming population, made the country extremely popular with people fleeing war and persecution, and left the Scandinavian nation with the second highest number of refugees per capita in Europe.

But for many asylum seekers who arrived during the influx last year, Sweden has proved less of a utopia than they hoped. Many faced a long, cold winter in political limbo, camped out in makeshift accomodation while the state struggled to cope with the large number of new claims. Less than 500 of the 160,000 arrivals have managed to secure jobs.

Concerned about the strain placed on the economy of the country, which was expected to spend about one per cent of its GDP on asylum seekers in 2016, the Swedish Migration Agency, a government department responsible for processing claims, introduced tougher rules at the start of 2016, designed to deter and keep out asylum seekers.

New border controls were brought in, as were stricter rules surrounding family reunion. Housing was withdrawn for failed asylum seekers and plans announced to expand immigration detention.

The Swedish public also appear to be have become more hostile to migrants.

A survey released in February showed immigration was the main concern for 40 per cent of Swedes, above worries about failing schools, joblessness and welfare. The change was the biggest opinion swing in the poll's history.

“Most Swedes are not racist,” said Ylva Johansson, the Minister for Employment and Integration. “But when there is this special asylum housing when they cannot work, and cannot be part of society this is really a tension. This is a dangerous situation; we have a lot of people in no-man's land ... living outside society.”

As a consequence of the change in rules and attitude, the Migration Agency is now predicting just 60,000 new asylum claims overall in 2016, and has revised its estimate of how much money it will need to accomodate asylum seekers to £4.8 billion less than was originally estimated.

As well as detering new claimants, the situation has encouraged a greater number of asylum seekers to take the government up on a scheme which has been in place since the start of 2013: offering grants of up to 30,000 Kronor (£3,500) to individuals and 75,000 Kronor (£8,600) to families who return to their country of origin voluntarily. The money is only handed out after the individual or family has left Sweden.

“We are getting signals that asylum seekers are tiring of long processing times and that things have not turned out as they expected in Sweden,” Kristina Ränner, a Migration Agency expert told local media.

The situation has changed so much the number of people from Iraq who cancelled their asylum applications in 2016 (1,366) is actually greater than the number of new claims from Iraqi asylum seekers (1,243).

A similar trend can be seen among Afghans. Statistics show only 18 per cent of Afghans are likely to have their asylum applications approved, so many are choosing to leave of their own accord. In all, 500 people from Afghanistan have withdrawn their applications so far in 2016.

“The climate here in Sweden has toughened considerably. That leads to a new kind of decision,” added Ms Ränner.

Sweden's statistics, however, have to be viewed in the context of less refugees entering Europe overall in 2016 than in 2015. The Balkan route has essentially been closed off by the EU-Turkey deal, which forces migrants to return to Turkey unless they want to claim asylum in Greece, which would stop them travelling onwards to countries in northern Europe.

2016 has been the deadliest year so far for refugees trying to reach Europe, aid workers have said, telling The Independent in July they are frustrated at moves within the EU to keep more refugees out and to block off entry routes without providing safe legal alternatives.

“I think as long as people drowning in the Mediterannean then enough isn’t being done,” said Dr Erna Rijnierse, a doctor from Médecins Sans Frontières.

“Everyone has an opinion on how to keep these people out of Europe but no one has an opinion on where they are coming from or why they are running away.

“These people have good reasons for coming, they are risking their lives.”

The Office for the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights warned physical and legal barriers to migration were “no match” for human trafficking

Maria Grazia Giammarinaro said criminalising refugees made people fleeing conflict, persecution and extreme poverty easy prey.

“Some countries have adopted restrictive approaches, which exacerbated vulnerabilities of migrants, refugees and asylum seekers to human trafficking,” she said.

 

[Nonek]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Meanwhile at the foot fetishists convention...

[Chippy]

AFAIK Sweden is now the rape capital of Europe, and second highest the world world over.  It's expected that as much as 190,000 migrants will come into Sweden this year and 160,000 last year, with 80,000 being sent home.  The rape epidemic started (as in Germany) with the influx of migrants, with the governments trying to cover it up.

 

I'd say that as far as cultural integration goes, and economic concerns are predicted, putting a question mark over Sweden is the only logical way to look at it.  And can only hope for the best for the future of their country.

 

I honestly think we're at a time in Europe where the projections of conspiracy theorists are starting to sound more reasonable than the decisions of world leaders.  Germany for instance, now wants to ban the burqa.  It's like they're actually trying to incite social unrest.

 

...further.

[BruceVC]

AFAIK Sweden is now the rape capital of Europe, and second highest the world world over.  It's expected that as much as 190,000 migrants will come into Sweden this year and 160,000 last year, with 80,000 being sent home.  The rape epidemic started (as in Germany) with the influx of migrants, with the governments trying to cover it up.

 

I'd say that as far as cultural integration goes, and economic concerns are predicted, putting a question mark over Sweden is the only logical way to look at it.  And can only hope for the best for the future of their country.

 

I honestly think we're at a time in Europe where the projections of conspiracy theorists are starting to sound more reasonable than the decisions of world leaders.  Germany for instance, now wants to ban the burqa.  It's like they're actually trying to incite social unrest.

 

...further.

I think countries should be able to ban the burka without being told   " you Islamophobic "

 

The Burka is not mandatory in the Islamic faith and France has been the victim  of  numerous domestic attacks and will take numerous steps to address this and make its citizens feel safe

 

 http://edition.cnn.com/2014/07/01/world/europe/france-burqa-ban/index.html

[Chippy]

The way I look at it is that countries need to lay out the ground rules from the start.  Germany has this open door policy (and Sweden) of total PC culture and acceptance, and then start chucking people out of the country when it hits the fan, and banning traditional dress because (I assume) of security fears.

This is where I agree with Donald Trump and Nigel Farage - if this was done properly they would have set camps up in the migrants native countries that checked for valid status, made a person aware of expected changes and local laws, and then deported that person if they broke those laws or denied them access if they didn't agree.

 

As it is in France, a man was attacked with hatchets and harpoons for taking a photo of a woman in a 'burqini'.  Now I half expect that she wouldn't have been on the beech without one, and he would have been attacked for sure if she was wearing a normal costume.  But they're effectively shutting the door after the horse has bolted with the ban.  And people that talk about the Muslim community changing the radicals to integrate better are morons - because that's a long term change.  Assuming it works.  In the short term you're not going to change the mind of a person armed with a machete going into a shopping centre to kill people with: "Hey, hold on a moment while I ring up someone who can talk you out of this".

 

This is why I question the sanity of these leaders.  Germany is frightening the crap out of it's citizens by telling them to stock up on supplies for 10 days,  while simultaneously creating friction with migrants with a burqa ban - knowing that this was one of the reasons France has been targetted so much because of theirs.

[BruceVC]

The way I look at it is that countries need to lay out the ground rules from the start.  Germany has this open door policy (and Sweden) of total PC culture and acceptance, and then start chucking people out of the country when it hits the fan, and banning traditional dress because (I assume) of security fears.

This is where I agree with Donald Trump and Nigel Farage - if this was done properly they would have set camps up in the migrants native countries that checked for valid status, made a person aware of expected changes and local laws, and then deported that person if they broke those laws or denied them access if they didn't agree.

 

As it is in France, a man was attacked with hatchets and harpoons for taking a photo of a woman in a 'burqini'.  Now I half expect that she wouldn't have been on the beech without one, and he would have been attacked for sure if she was wearing a normal costume.  But they're effectively shutting the door after the horse has bolted with the ban.  And people that talk about the Muslim community changing the radicals to integrate better are morons - because that's a long term change.  Assuming it works.  In the short term you're not going to change the mind of a person armed with a machete going into a shopping centre to kill people with: "Hey, hold on a moment while I ring up someone who can talk you out of this".

 

This is why I question the sanity of these leaders.  Germany is frightening the crap out of it's citizens by telling them to stock up on supplies for 10 days,  while simultaneously creating friction with migrants with a burqa ban - knowing that this was one of the reasons France has been targetted so much because of theirs.

 

The way I look at it is that countries need to lay out the ground rules from the start.  Germany has this open door policy (and Sweden) of total PC culture and acceptance, and then start chucking people out of the country when it hits the fan, and banning traditional dress because (I assume) of security fears.

This is where I agree with Donald Trump and Nigel Farage - if this was done properly they would have set camps up in the migrants native countries that checked for valid status, made a person aware of expected changes and local laws, and then deported that person if they broke those laws or denied them access if they didn't agree.

 

As it is in France, a man was attacked with hatchets and harpoons for taking a photo of a woman in a 'burqini'.  Now I half expect that she wouldn't have been on the beech without one, and he would have been attacked for sure if she was wearing a normal costume.  But they're effectively shutting the door after the horse has bolted with the ban.  And people that talk about the Muslim community changing the radicals to integrate better are morons - because that's a long term change.  Assuming it works.  In the short term you're not going to change the mind of a person armed with a machete going into a shopping centre to kill people with: "Hey, hold on a moment while I ring up someone who can talk you out of this".

 

This is why I question the sanity of these leaders.  Germany is frightening the crap out of it's citizens by telling them to stock up on supplies for 10 days,  while simultaneously creating friction with migrants with a burqa ban - knowing that this was one of the reasons France has been targetted so much because of theirs.

Something else I forgot to mention, until about 4 years I worked  in the Middle East for about 5 years but not continuously. We worked on projects for 2-3 weeks at a time at various countries. In summary I had several issues  with  almost all the countries in the ME because their local laws were and are so conservative ....foreigners like me are treated well but you have no legal rights that are automatically given to any Muslim who immigrates to any Western country 

 

Now I understand the ME falls under Sharia law but thats not my point as no allowances are basically made to accommodate Westerners yet the West really accommodates Muslims when they immigrate

 

So in the ME for example

 

• Very little effort to allow for Christianity or have churches (I'm agnostic but its the principle)

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/02/27/middleeast/christianity-middle-east/index.html

• Womens rights and gay rights ignored or they are horribly discriminated against

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_in_the_Middle_East

https://www.culturalsurvival.org/ourpublications/csq/article/law-and-women-middle-east

•  You have no real legal rights or human rights in many ME countries like UAE

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Dubai

 

Now we as Westerners have to accept this, you have no choice so for me this burka development is simple

 

Even if countries in the EU were fine with the burkas they have now decided to change there minds, I support this 100 % as any country in the ME would pass any law they want and have no concern with how it impacted Westerners

 

And the whole burka outlawing is not against the actual Koran so I have even less sympathy for people who refuse to adhere to it. If people in France  want to wear burkas thats fine, there are plenty of Muslim countries they can go live in who will accept this

[Maedhros]

AFAIK Sweden is now the rape capital of Europe, and second highest the world world over.  It's expected that as much as 190,000 migrants will come into Sweden this year and 160,000 last year, with 80,000 being sent home.  The rape epidemic started (as in Germany) with the influx of migrants, with the governments trying to cover it up.

 

I'd say that as far as cultural integration goes, and economic concerns are predicted, putting a question mark over Sweden is the only logical way to look at it.  And can only hope for the best for the future of their country.

 

I honestly think we're at a time in Europe where the projections of conspiracy theorists are starting to sound more reasonable than the decisions of world leaders.  Germany for instance, now wants to ban the burqa.  It's like they're actually trying to incite social unrest.

 

...further.

 

Calling Sweden the rape capitol of Europe isn't a very nuanced way of looking at it. They have a much wider definition of rape than pretty much anywhere, and it's a very gender equal society, meaning girls are far more likely to report rapes than in most other countries.

 

I believe the police in Sweden has a rather unique way of registering rapes also. If a girl says she has been raped by her husband each day in a year, that's regarded as 365 rape cases, whereas in other countries it would be regarded as one rape case (or in some not at all "husbands can't rape wives", etc).

 

It's true that the amount of rapes have increased along with the mass influx of refugees, but comparing rape statistics between countries is a very difficult to do because of the aforementioned reasons.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_Sweden

[Hurlshort]

But that doesn't fit the narrative where all refugees are also rapists!

[Elerond]

BBC wrote good article about problems in comparing crime statistics between countries

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-19592372

[Volourn]

All it tells us is that countries like Sweden are insane  and  are playing stupid games with  the actual facts. This is the reason hy the stupid myth of 'rape culture' exists b/c they often count a man saying hello to a woman as sexual harassment/assault/rape if the woman was made to 'feel' 'uncomfortable'. they also have a habit of ignore the supposed 'victim's wishes at times too to further their nonsense.

 

Some pollsters ask people have they ever had sex while drunk... and, if the woman answers yes they register that as 'unwanted sexual contatc' ie. rape.

 

seriously,  stupid SJW Nazis  spit in the faces of true rape victims by expanding the definition.

[BruceVC]

All it tells us is that countries like Sweden are insane  and  are playing stupid games with  the actual facts. This is the reason hy the stupid myth of 'rape culture' exists b/c they often count a man saying hello to a woman as sexual harassment/assault/rape if the woman was made to 'feel' 'uncomfortable'. they also have a habit of ignore the supposed 'victim's wishes at times too to further their nonsense.

 

Some pollsters ask people have they ever had sex while drunk... and, if the woman answers yes they register that as 'unwanted sexual contatc' ie. rape.

 

seriously,  stupid SJW Nazis  spit in the faces of true rape victims by expanding the definition.

The abuse of women and children is a real and serious societal problem that every country grapples with on different levels

 

The rape of women, which is relatively common,  is real and is something we should be very concerned. about. Volo are you saying that the general rape statistics of women are wrong

 

We have a real problem in SA with rape and activists do also call it " rape culture". Personally I dont like using the word " culture " as it may create the wrong view that rape is a part of SA culture which means we are all responsible in some way ?