Even more deepz out of this rogue

[omgFIREBALLS]

After a number of abandoned projects I've finally taken a melee rogue far and I'm pretty happy with her damage (and more importantly my ability to keep her alive). But why settle for pretty happy when I have you guys to make it even better, eh?

 

Conditions

- I want to keep the rogue feeling, so no heavy armor, no shield and no two-handers. Single or dual wield (also no ranged weapons)

- She has max dexterity because I've never had a Watcher like that and want to explore the conversation options (plus it feels roguelike), which might matter for attack speed calculations

 

At your disposal

- The Helwax Mold

- Probably every weapon in the game (eventually ), including Misery's End as I sided with the Doemenels

- A sky dragon eye that Concelhaut is unwittingly keeping safe for me

 

I've read about dual Purgatory or Drawn In Spring but it seems odd to me that TUB hasn't been mentioned in the posts I've skimmed. My barbarian isn't wearing that because no matter how amazing it is my barbarians don't swing daggers And what about Nightshroud? It's always gone by unused as my priests don't melee.

 

Another dilemma I have is Vulnerable Attack vs. Reckless Assault. The latter looks better to me but I have to spend an odd-level-point on it, where I find I always have some juicy options, whereas the even-level-points aren't very exciting anymore.

[Stasis_Sword]

What's your current level, build and equipment?

 

As for weapons arguably the biggest question is are you looking for pure damage or CC too? If you're looking for CC starcaller, Mabec's and Godansthunyr will all give you stun on crit (almost nothing is immune). Weapons like purgatory are nice for high base damage and annihilation further increasing your crit damage. I think the reason TUB isn't mentioned much is that it doesn't have any exceptional synergies with a rogue. Don't get me wrong it's still a very nice weapon but other classes could use it just as well.

 

Reckless assault give you a great bonus to accuracy and +20% melee damage, I always take it. Remember that savage attack no longer stacks with it.

[omgFIREBALLS]

I'm not averse to going for CC but none of those weapons feel roguelike enough to me.

 

Level 13

Abilities: Blinding Strike, Deathblows, Deep Wounds, Dirty Fighting, Escape, Sap, Persistent Distraction

Talents: Two Weapon Style, Shadowing Beyond, WF: Ruffian, Vicious Fighting, Vulnerable Attack, Backstab

 

I excluded Watcher abilities/talents.

 

Wearing Purgatory and Misery's End, I guess Glanfathan Sneaking Boots and Rabbit Fur Gloves should be mentioned too.

 

Thanks.

[TWPE]

Also there is the whole factor of Durgan Steel and Soulbound Weapons hating eachother with that longstanding feud of theirs I made up to justify it in my mind.

[KDubya]

From a pure mechanics standpoint Rogues get a lot of criticals and stun is the best on crit effect. This makes Starcaller the best choice. It has a tasty on crit spell proc of one of the missile spells that can also benefit from Deathblows. It has a fast attack speed and stun on crit that gets you -30 deflection debuff which sets up a vicious cycle of perma-crits and perma-stun. The downside is you don't think it is very Rogue-like, and flails do not have any other one handed weapons in their group. They do have War Bows in the group so there is that.

 

You could pair Starcaller with Drawn in Spring. You'd miss out on the weapon focus with the dagger but you would get the inherent +5 accuracy and the +4 from the Orlan game. Or you could use the Unforgiven flail that has speed enchant. The spell stealing flail also opens up some possibilities with Deathblow and Deep Wounds enhanced spells.

 

But if flails are a definite no go then go with the standard dual sabre set up. The on hit procs of the Soulbound weapons do not synergize with a Rogue unlike a Barbarian. If you can use a Warhammer or spear there are two other on crit stun effects but both are average speed weapons instead of the fast speed flail.

[Kaylon]

Dual durganized legendary bittercut with corrosive lash is the next best thing after dual dawn in spring. And with the gauntlets of quickness you can reach 0% recovery if you wear a durganized robe/monk outfit.

[Dr <3]

I think that dual purgatory is better, accounting for the High accuracy and hit to crit conversione rogue has. You heal yourself and deal + 50% over normal crits, i bet is even better then dual drawn in spring. Need to test this.

 

Or dual flames of fair rhian like boerer suggest for massive aoe DMG if you enable deathblows. You can do up to 100 DMG every fire ball.

Edited June 1, 2016 by Dr <3

[Dr <3]

Just for known, single hand weapons that have stun or prone on crit are we toki, starcaller and what else? I don't t remember others

[Kaylon]

You have also Cladhaliath - it comes with +5acc and can have stunning and 20% dmg vs flanked, stunned, prone.

[nem0]

Godansthunyr as well

[MaxQuest]

Conditions

- I want to keep the rogue feeling, so no heavy armor, no shield and no two-handers. Single or dual wield (also no ranged weapons)

1H is great if you want to pump your on-crit effects chance, especially if it is a stunning effect. Because it not only will indirectly increase your survivability but also the damage output (due to reduced deflection and cose it qualifies for deathblows now).

Although 1H also has a con: they don't get an extra attack speed bonus like DW does. Achieving zero-recovery is harder. A speed enchant would help alleviate that, but unfortunately there is no weapon with both speed and stunning. So this path is only optimal if you are ok with fighting in just durganized robe and consuming one DAoM after another.

 

As for DW.. there are plenty of options. Which one to choose depends on your party composition, and what exactly do you want from your rogue. The variants are:

- v1. dual Drawn-in-spring. These are good due to the wounding property, the way it bypasses DR and benefits from Might, twice. Most effective on a rogue with pumped might attacking very high-DR enemies. Also do benefit from Flick of the Wrist.

- v2. dual Purgatory. Higher base damage nicely scales with high damage coefficients. Good for a crit oriented build, which also can get away with lower might score.

- v3. dual Bittercut. Most balanced and versatile option, due to dual damage type. And iirc they do work with Spirit of Decay. Also Vile Thorns do benefit from Deathblows and Deep Wounds.

- v4. dual Cladhaliath sheningans, with stunning and vicious enchants. The idea is to have an extra affliction towards Deathblows, while not being hit by the enemy in meantime.

 

And what about Nightshroud? It's always gone by unused as my priests don't melee.

It's bad. Can't durganize nor apply a lash to it. And those low-rate procs don't come close to compensating for that. Edited June 1, 2016 by MaxQuest

[Boeroer]

Dual Bittercuts: don't forget to take Spirit of Decay - it works with Bittercut, giving you +20% base damage and also +30% corrosive lash instead of 25%. You can then use Bleak Fang and Azureith's Stiletto in the second weapon slot and switch to that weapon slot once Deathblow s are set up. Once the two on crit spells triggered (Jolting Touch & Touch of Rot - very touchy rogue, that one - doing double damage with Deathblows) you can switch back to dual Bittercut. By the way: Vile Thorns is a very fast spell and also works with Deathblows. And you will have 4 of that per rest.

Edited June 1, 2016 by Boeroer

[MaxQuest]

- She has max dexterity because I've never had a Watcher like that and want to explore the conversation options (plus it feels roguelike), which might matter for attack speed calculations

A bit. Dex provide a slightly higher benefit to slower weapons, because of inter-action delay not being affected by it.

 

I've read about dual Purgatory or Drawn In Spring but it seems odd to me that TUB hasn't been mentioned in the posts I've skimmed.

Probably because TUB cannot be lashed, nor durganized.

Also it doesn't quite fit under your conditions. Firebug procs on crit or hit. So there is really zero reasons to not take a small shield into the offhand, durganize it, and have higher speed and defenses.

And of course going for TUB would salute having high might and getting scion of flame.

 

Btw firebug from TUB is different from druid's spell.

The proc has 40-50 base damage. While the spell 30-40 and +10 accuracy on cast.

 

But yes, it is a viable choice.

You can achieve zero-recovery with it, and the action duration (at 10 DEX) would be: 5 (delay) + 20 (attack) frames. Or 5 + 15.3 (20 DEX). Hence one attack every 0.67s.

 

At 10% chance to trigger, we can expect one firebug every 6.7s. (on average)

If there is more than 1 target (such that it could bounce) it's 8x45 burning damage (at 10 mig, and no scion of flame).

So even if it's not a barb, it's still not bad. And... has anyone tested the interaction with deathblows?

Edited June 1, 2016 by MaxQuest

[Kaylon]

Firebug looks good on paper but in reality sucks because it uses your base accuracy (ie up to 33acc loss compared to weapon) which means not only it has a poor chance to proc (less than 10% because of misses/grazes) but when it procs it also has a good chance to miss/graze. Also in order to bounce you need to have a second enemy behind or target or else it will stop. A lash will add more dps than this proc... A superb march steel dagger with a lash and durganized might even outdps it...

Edited June 2, 2016 by Kaylon

[MasterCipher]

Bittercut vs. Purgatory. I almost went Bittercut for the versatility, but Rogues can always use an item or scroll to deal more damage than a wizard can casting the same spell . . .

Purgatory with corrode lash enchantment (25) and corrode talent (20+5)  and chanter fire lash chant (25) = +75% damage

Purgatory with fire lash enchantment (25) and chanter fire lash chant (25) and scion of flame (5+5) + annihilation (50) = +110% damage

 

The damage gap is wider than one would assume.

 

Rogues have amazing weapon accuracy, which lets them apply blind and weaken to a single target very reliably. I have 81 at lvl 3 using an unenchanted club with weapon focus ruffian and passive pally aura. My priest always opens with +10 accuracy inspiring aura so effectively 91. Not using any food, potions, or other spell buffs yet and already 67% of hits are crits. The fighter in party with same weapon/talent/plate armor has 30 out of 32 crits (disciplined barrage + 20 > +8 reckless assault), but less than half the total damage.

 

omg, I never thought about TUB with deathblows - looking forward to see if anyone has tested that. Wood elf racial and +5 accuracy gloves may help here with the accuracy problem Kaylon pointed out.

[omgFIREBALLS]

Thanks for all the input. Haven't decided between dualing Drawn In Spring, Bittercut or Purgatory, but at least it's now a narrowed selection. As for Reckless Assault vs. Vulnerable Attacks, do you all agree with Stasis Sword? I'm thinking if I respec to get it I might drop Persistent Distraction because with Sap I have a more effective answer to enemies that decide to target my rogue.

[Elric Galad]

Check new patch. There are a lot of new stuff for rogues !

Edited June 2, 2016 by Elric Galad

[Kaylon]

Bittercut with spirit of decay (which applies +20% dmg to both slash and corrode dmg) does better damage than Purgatory, the spells are just a bonus.

 

Let's say you do 100% critical hits for the sake of the argument... 50% more dmg means, on average, 8 more dmg every hit. 20% dmg means 3dmg on average, thus Purgatory can do at best 5 more dmg than Bittercut on average. However, if you look at the bestiary you'll see that more than half of the enemies are either resistant to slash or weak to corrode and Bittercut will do better damage in most situations. 

 

PS. Also Bittercut is obtainable very soon in ch.2 while Purgatory comes only in ch.3...

PPS. A fire lash will add only 1 more dmg to a critical hit with Purgatory compared to Bittercut...

[omgFIREBALLS]

Check new patch. There are a lot of new stuff for rogues !

I saw them, but apart from maybe the change to single weapon style I don't see how they are particularly relevant to this. Happy for that change though.

 

Mostly I'm cackling manically about the 1/encounter Heart of Fury. That ability is a wrecking ball.

[Elric Galad]

Riposte and Withering Strike being upgraded slightly favors average weapons compared to fast for example. Don't understimate the number of sick combo people here can set up with a couple of new rules

[bigwillystyle]

 

Check new patch. There are a lot of new stuff for rogues !

I saw them, but apart from maybe the change to single weapon style I don't see how they are particularly relevant to this. Happy for that change though.

 

Mostly I'm cackling manically about the 1/encounter Heart of Fury. That ability is a wrecking ball.

 

 

That Heart of Fury is now game-changing.  Lordy.  Heart of Fury + Firebrand, babeeeeeee!

[Elric Galad]

Neh. I think full attack makes it better with dual wield

[MaxQuest]

Firebug looks good on paper but in reality sucks because it uses your base accuracy (ie up to 33acc loss compared to weapon) which means not only it has a poor chance to proc (less than 10% because of misses/grazes) but when it procs it also has a good chance to miss/graze. Also in order to bounce you need to have a second enemy behind or target or else it will stop. A lash will add more dps than this proc... A superb march steel dagger with a lash and durganized might even outdps it...

Hmm, I understand your arguments. But still have a feeling that they can be worked-around: (at least with the help of other party members)

 

- accuracy concern: the proc doesn't benefit from the weapon accuracy; but so does the druid's spell as well. And even through the spell gets a bonus +10 acc, this is compensated by rogue's higher base accuracy.

- miss/graze concern: the rogue usually has quite a decent accuracy to eliminate misses altogether. And the party can help with the acc minus deflection difference even further, as they will have to setup for deathblows anyway (mass blinds, paralyzes, etc).

- bouncing concern: yeah, there indeed has to be at least two targets for bouncing. But it's not necessary for them to stand behind the primary target. The tests has shown that they can stand anywhere and bounces could jump over at least 3m. But if there is only one tough enemy standing, yeah, it's better to just switch to other weapon, drawn in spring for instance.

- enchant concern: yeah, this weapon cannot be durganized, yet the speed enchant compensates for that extra 15% ias and lower crit rate is not that critical on a rogue, if he is build around deathblows. Also the fact that it is of mythical quality, makes lack of lash a little bit less painful.

 

Also I was little bit wrong about the hit count. The proc actually results in 9 hits: 1 main + 8 bounces.

And... just tested it, it works with deathblows.

 

Edited June 2, 2016 by MaxQuest

[MasterCipher]

I've seen other bounce spells hit the same target more than once, but not reliably. ie target A to target B back to target A

 

I've been wondering for rogues, how TUB with a shield that procs damage on crit would compare to duel sabers.