What is the best focus gaining ranged weapon for a cipher?

[Kingsman]

I've read on these forums a lot of people saying that warbows are best for building focus. Because of this I rolled a cipher on my last play through though I swear that I did not gain as much focus compared to using an arquebus.

 

What do you guys think is the best focus building ranged weapon? And have you tried the quick switch build cipher? Switching through weapon slots with firearms? Is this worth it?

[Elric Galad]

For short battles, I guess firearms are hard to beat, which may alter your overall feeling. People may suggest warbow because of long battles. Another option is firearms with quickswitch, which might be optimal.

[Loren Tyr]

A hybrid is also an option: open with a firearm for a quick boost in Focus, switch to warbow if the battle goes on that long. 

 

Has anyone tried a crossbow Cipher, by the way? It generally doesn't seem to get a whole lot of love I think (in general), it's perhaps a bit too middle of the road for its own good. But it might actually be a reasonable compromise between speed and damage.

[Wolken3156]

I prefer using guns on the alpha strike and then quick-switching over to a warbow for the rest of the encounter. During early game when accuracy is an issue I find its better to stick to bows as well.

 

In really late battles, where my Cipher is almost exclusively only using powers though, I just equip two guns instead. Fire an opening shot, and then if I run out of Focus mid-fight, swap over to my other gun to fire a secondary shot to regain focus. This works really great with an Island Aumua.

 

Never tried crossbows personally. Guns are more stylish IMO B)

Edited May 25, 2016 by Wolken3156

[nem0]

I have a bunch of testing in a somewhat unreadable format but in general I found that the Rain of Godagh Field was the strongest in most situations(no weapon is best in 100% of fights).  With time parasite and durgan steel it is possible to reach zero recovery(-1.07) with light armor and durgan, other bows can get very close(-.9837 recovery) with gloves of swift action. However, with the Godagh you can have zero recovery and penetrating shot and heavier armor(total - 1.3805 recovery). Armor speed reduction also seems to affect spell casting speed so I suggest it is best to wear light armor especially if you are ranged. Hunting bows do up to about 25% more damage vs low DR enemies but start doing significantly less depending on how high the enemy DR is, war bows have a much larger range for effective damage against tankier(depending on your DR penetration) enemies.  I believe war bows are the best because they are high enough damage to reach the focus for a time parasite cast after 1 hit vs hunting bows most likely take 2. Enemies with weak DR are also not generally a problem(we make builds for the hardest fights not the easy ones); if you are fighting enemies with 18-20 pierce DR the hunting bow will generate almost no focus.

 

As far as guns go, it is burst damage vs dps.  Bows do more dps in the long run(potentially 2x as much) gaining a lot more benefit from zero recovery given it does not effect reload time. Additionally, firearms or any quick switch build generally means that your attacks will suffer from inherent accuracy loss(firearms) as well as not being able to benefit from the superb enchantment since there are only enough materials to upgrade two two handers in the game past exceptional. Also a lot of hard enemies in later parts like cragholdt high very high initial deflect and missing that first shot can be a really big deal in opening a fight.  Arbalests are actually a good choice since they do not suffer accuracy reduction and can prone(or stun with the one superb unique found) and have the second highest damage right behind arquebus. 

 

Crossbows sit in kind of a weird spot.  They have higher base damage and still very long(though the shortest) reload time. As such they are only good vs a small range of DR because they are too slow to out dps low DR enemies with bows and not high enough damage to be more effective than firearms and arbalests against high DR.  The Twin Sting is arguably worthwhile because you only need to reload once every two shots which puts its dps in a reasonable range though still behind bows in most situations. The raw damage and focus generation procs from its attacks more or less is equal to whatever lash you would have on a non-soulbound weapon.

 

My suggestions after having played through POTD with ranged cipher is to have an arbalest and/or bow.  Use the arbalest(Aedrin's Wrecker when you get it) to start the fight, then switch to Rain of Godagh or Lenas Er.  Make sure to put on lashes as they generate additional focus.  If you don't get the quick switch talent or/and belt it may be better to just use a bow the whole time (2.5 second switch time, -1.5 talent, -1 for belt). My preference was the Rain because it was better vs stronger enemies and the speed enchantment greatly reduces or negates the penalty from penetrating shot.

[MaxQuest]

I've read on these forums a lot of people saying that warbows are best for building focus. Because of this I rolled a cipher on my last play through though I swear that I did not gain as much focus compared to using an arquebus.

This depends on a lot of factors: weapon quality, enemy DR, your might, perception and especially your recovery time.

 

What do you guys think is the best focus building ranged weapon?

Here you go: spreadsheet

 

Provided you have reduced your recovery to zero, best focus generating weapons (auto-attacking, no quick-switch), are durganized Cloudpiercer and durganized Sabra Marie (if you crit often enough). 

 

Prior to that, Rain of Goddah is king. (update: also Pretty Pretty's Rib and Engwithan sceptre if you will take Dangerous Implement talent)

 

But in the very early game, when your recovery is still substantial, and weapons don't have decent dmg modifier from the quality enchant, firearms are worthy as well.

 

And have you tried the quick switch build cipher? Switching through weapon slots with firearms? Is this worth it?

Depends on your own playstyle. I personally don't like the added micro.

I could consider doing it for example in boss fights. But than again this means I would take a talent that would stay without use in 90%+ of encounters.

Edited May 28, 2016 by MaxQuest

[nem0]

I know you are still in the process of figuring out exactly how attack speed works but is it still true that you will be unable to attain zero recovery unless you have a speed enchanted two handed weapon? The old way it would be the 1.5 x 1.15 x 1.15 =  1.98375 so just under 2 which is mostly negligible but still not zero. If this is still accurate then with the Rain you should be able to reach 2.3805 which means you can use penetrating shot without penalty putting it ahead of the cloudpiercer DR bypass (not taking into account the spell proc). The Sabra Marie is a good weapon and the annihilation should add approximately 8.25 damage per crit. Assuming the opponent has at least 5 armor it would take a chance of approximately 60% crit to equal that average damage; taking penetrating shot without extra attack speed should add .5 seconds to our 1.5 total attack duration(+33%) if I read your last report correctly.  Also the Sabra is unable to have both a lash and be enchanted to legendary due to max enchantment slots unlike the Rain which is an extra 3 accuracy and 10% damage(probably about 15% damage bonus in total if we have durgan).

 

The Sabra's confuse proc may be more worth it if you like it (personally I do not because it is a bit unreliable and tends to happens in just the right time to avoid spells or grab positive buffs from my priest) but I believe that if you consider the penetrating shot plus the legendary bonus that the Rain comes out on top in terms of pure damage in the very late as well given its ability to reach zero recovery with the talent activated.

[MaxQuest]

is it still true that you will be unable to attain zero recovery unless you have a speed enchanted two handed weapon? The old way it would be the 1.5 x 1.15 x 1.15 =  1.98375 so just under 2 which is mostly negligible but still not zero.

Nope. A cipher can achieve zero-recovery with a ranged weapon without speed enchant.

Although he has no access to Swift Aim, there is also Sure-Handed chant. Which brings to:

 

(1.2 - 1) + (1.15 * 1.15 * 1.5 - 1) = 1.18 > 1

 

Also the Sabra is unable to have both a lash and be enchanted to legendary due to max enchantment slots unlike the Rain which is an extra 3 accuracy and 10% damage(probably about 15% damage bonus in total if we have durgan).

Durgan enchant is irrelevant here, because it has a zero-cost, and can be applied to both.

 

I understand your point regarding increasing weapon quality to legendary. The problem is you can do it so late into the game, that.. it hardly even matters.

Last playthrough I have enchanted some weapons to legendary, right after the Llengrath fight. At that point there was only Thaos remaining. And 15 minutes later I've finished the game.

 

The Sabra's confuse proc may be more worth it if you like it (personally I do not because it is a bit unreliable and tends to happens in just the right time to avoid spells or grab positive buffs from my priest)

Well, Kingsman didn't ask for favorite weapons, but for most focus-generating ones

For example my preferred bow is still Borresaine. Draining is nice, but the stun is even better. With it I often keep 1-2 enemy spellcasters at a time being unable to cast anything, by just auto-attacking.

 

I believe that if you consider the penetrating shot plus the legendary bonus that the Rain comes out on top in terms of pure damage in the very late as well given its ability to reach zero recovery with the talent activated.

I am not sure if 5 DR penetration is better than 3 DR pen + a talent slot. Just Beast Slayer could give bigger returns.

But if you have a chanter with Sure-Handed chant (which btw also reduces cast time of a lot of ranged spells), you can get zero-recovery with any bow, even with enabled Penetrating Shots.

 

As for anihilation property of Sabra Marie, I will be able to run some math latter.

Edited May 26, 2016 by MaxQuest

[nem0]

Counting the chanter then yeah I get that, as long as you want to depend on another class, unfortunately chanter's have been bugged for me since I got the game and they randomly cut off chants and I get copies of chants in the bar. I agree that getting the kraken eyes comes pretty late but so does beating the alpine and sky for most people( I have watched your priest solo...). On a purely offensive cipher I generally have 1 to 2 talents left over at 16 that can be put into defense or utility so that didn't bother me on my last playthrough. 

 

 

 

 

Durgan enchant is irrelevant here, because it has a zero-cost, and can be applied to both.

 

I only mentioned this because it adds .3 damage to our crits which means accuracy bonuses are slightly more damaging on average, though bonus hit to crit is more beneficial to annihilation. It is hard to calculate exact damage because you have to take in to account what your accuracy range is against an opponent, like am I still in a graze and up or miss and up range.

 

I don't think either are a bad choice, in fact it is probably a maximum difference of 1-2 damage but that rpg maximization compulsion gets me. 

[MaxQuest]

It is hard to calculate exact damage because you have to take in to account what your accuracy range is against an opponent, like am I still in a graze and up or miss and up range.

And it's also might be an impractical thing to do. As there are so many different creatures with different DR and defenses, and also debuffs which can lower those, that it is impossible to say which weapon choice is the absolute best one. The good thing it's probably not needed, and it's enough to encompass just the top choices, where the end difference in dps is pretty minor. Thus I completely agree on the following:

 

I don't think either are a bad choice, in fact it is probably a maximum difference of 1-2 damage but that rpg maximization compulsion gets me.

Edited May 26, 2016 by MaxQuest

[Kaylon]

Sagani's bow (which can be obtained as soon as you finish ch.1) is another top choice because it does thrust/crush damage and can be durganized and also have a lash unlike Stormcaller. 

[MaxQuest]

Sagani's bow is another top choice because it does thrust/crush damage and can be durganized and also have a lash unlike Stormcaller.

Yeap, not having a lash is quite detrimental for focus generation.

Totally forgot that Stormcaller cannot be not only durganized but also lashed as well. After recalculation Stormcaller has dropped quite substantially.

 

Sagani's bow dual damage is indeed handy. Even if  that bow is slightly nerfed compared to default hunting bow regarding:

- range: it has 11 range instead of 12

- base damage: it has 10-14 instead of 10-15

 

Btw, your remark about dual-damage made me thinking... what about implements? After all there is also dangerous implement talent that partially compensates for their lower base damage.

 

---

I have expanded the spreadsheet and re-run the calculations. It turns out that:

- Golden Gaze is the best weapon against low DR targets. It has same attack rate as a hunting bow. And with Dangerous Implement talent it catches with it in damage. But it fires twice.

- Pretty Pretty's Rib and Engwithan sceptre get a mention too, due to their speed enchant. The former also has rending. And the numbers reflect that.

- Rain of Goddah is slightly better than I throught. Even if you have a chanter, it can slightly bypass Cloudpiercer in terms of auto-attack damage, because due to Sure-Handed it's possible to take Vambraces instead of Gauntlets of Swift Action. The downside through is, that the latter also decrease recovery duration from spells.

- Quick Switching can get you a tremendous benefit for 2-3 hits. The trick through is to switch weapons immediately after weapon has fired and before the recovery start (~20 frames window). In this case you will skill weapon recovery completely and will face only the switching penalty, which is 2s minus 1.5s (from quick switch), hence only 15 frames.

 

Updated spreadsheet

 

P.S. If you find any error feel free to correct me.

Edited May 28, 2016 by MaxQuest

[nem0]

Great analysis as always!  Thanks for doing this, I have some similar stuff but it is half written in a notebook/messy excel charts.

 

The spell recovery that you mention for gauntlets of swift action, does spell recovery have a higher "cap" than normal attacks do or do the gloves uniquely effect spell recovery whereas other bonuses do not?  Is it possible to reach max speed for attacks but not spells due to some odd calculation or mechanic?

 

I don't see the Sabra Marie in the charts but I assume it would beat the Rain at or near 0 DR and wins higher DR cases at substantial critical hit chance, approximately 60% and onward(which would equal about the damage that penetrating shots would give 5/8.25=.606).  

 

That is interesting about the golden gaze, do you know if the on hit percentage attacks apply to the wizard blast?  I tested and found that on crit abilities do like prone or stun do but disorienting did not. I have had trouble pinpointing whether or not it does given the spell proc affect has an aoe. If not then it is just as worthwhile on the cipher as a wizard and a little more effective vs higher DR.

[MaxQuest]

The spell recovery that you mention for gauntlets of swift action, does spell recovery have a higher "cap" than normal attacks do or do the gloves uniquely effect spell recovery whereas other bonuses do not?  Is it possible to reach max speed for attacks but not spells due to some odd calculation or mechanic?

It's not that spells do have higher cap, but.. they aren't affected by a quite a few talents and enchants that do affects weapons.

- As far as I am aware, recovery duration of spells and active abilities is not affected by: Dual Wielding, Two Weapon Style talent and doesn't get a malus from Penetration Shots.

- I am not sure if it is affected by weapon speed or durgan enchant.

- But it is affected by armor penalty, and all other maluses to attack speed there are.

- Also spells that inherit from ranged attack (most Single-target and AoE damaging one) are affected by malus from Vicious Aim and bonus from Sure Handed.

 

I don't see the Sabra Marie in the charts but I assume it would beat the Rain at or near 0 DR and wins higher DR cases at substantial critical hit chance, approximately 60% and onward(which would equal about the damage that penetrating shots would give 5/8.25=.606).

I didn't add it yet, because in that chart I was comparing weapons as if they only hit. No misses, grazes or crits. 

Unfortunately just multiplying end damage by a summing coefficient (0*0.15 + (k - 0.5) * 0.25 + k) for def=acc would be very inexact. Also it would require an individual table for each acc-def = n step. Or a calculator sheet. But that would be a next step.

 

A ranged cipher from my party, from lvl 8 to lvl 9, has critted on 66% of swings. So yeah Sabra Marie can potentially get a lead. Especially if that would be main character with The Merciless Hand talent.

 

That is interesting about the golden gaze, do you know if the on hit percentage attacks apply to the wizard blast?  I tested and found that on crit abilities do like prone or stun do but disorienting did not. I have had trouble pinpointing whether or not it does given the spell proc affect has an aoe. If not then it is just as worthwhile on the cipher as a wizard and a little more effective vs higher DR.

I have tried Golden Gaze against 3 spores standing one near another. Expose vulnerabilities were triggering really often. But it's hard to say if on approximately every 3rd or every 5th swing. Although definitely not in 2 out 3.

[nem0]

My PC POTD cipher whom I made a crit build for has 28 perception and 109 total acc(no buffs) right before act 4 has a net 41% critical hits however, I am sure that the early game average is very different from the late.  

 

That sounds like the golden gaze can proc on blast.  Hitting three enemies it should proc about 27%.

Edited May 28, 2016 by nem0

[Dropman]

Is stormcaller valid choice? It seem like waste of potential...but I'm curious if Soul shock from Stormcaller also generate focus? Cipher is my main, but I looks so subpar in compare to ranger with it.

[MaxQuest]

I am sure that the early game average is very different from the late.

Yeah. You hardly ever crit between levels 1-5, because of how PotD just adds flat defenses. But things start getting better and better. With proper debuffing and durganized weapons I would expect a cipher to crit on 66%+ of total hits past lvl 9 per lvl-interval.

 

That sounds like the golden gaze can proc on blast.  Hitting three enemies it should proc about 27%.

Not sure yet. 

One swing (against 3 enemies) was resulting in 2 direct hits and 4 blast hits.

If it would proc from blasts that would mean that it should proc on 6 out of 10 swings. And while it did proc often. It wasn't that often.

 

The question is: did it proc on average on 2 out of 10 swings (i.e. only hits) or 3 out of 10 (only first projectile + blasts). This will require additional tests.

 

One more thing about Golden Gaze: I've calculated it's dps with Expose Vulnerabilities proc. And.. it is awesome (added to spreadsheet)

 

Is stormcaller valid choice? It seem like waste of potential...but I'm curious if Soul shock from Stormcaller also generate focus? Cipher is my main, but I looks so subpar in compare to ranger with it.

Soul Shock from Stormcaller doesn't generate focus.

And because it is a soulbound weapon it cannot be durganized.

There was a hope that it could be a decent choice (at least until you get to the White Forge) due to it's double damage type and high shock DR penetration.

 

But because it also cannot be enchanted with a lash... turns out it is subpar. By how much? See the spreadsheet.

Edited May 30, 2016 by MaxQuest

[rheingold]

Quick question. I see that you don't have persistence in your spreadsheet? Wouldn't it be up there with the warbows and scepters in terms of dps?

Thanks for your work.

[MaxQuest]

The problem with Persistence is that wounding property doesn't generate focus at all. 

 

Yes it also has reliable property, which can be mildly useful. But than again it is going to proc at best in 7% of swings (0.35 x 0.2) and just move the damage coefficient from 1.65 to 2.15 (for superb weapon, 20 mig). That's just ~ 2% of dps increase.

 

So specifically for cipher it's almost like a default hunting bow, which is suboptimal for DR 10+.

Added Persistence to the spreadsheet. 

Edited May 30, 2016 by MaxQuest

[rheingold]

Uh cool thanks, I got carried away and offtopic.

[nem0]

I gave the 27% based on 6 hits. In actuality it is a bit lower chance because grazes and misses don't proc it.

 

1-(.95^6)= .265  since it has a 5% chance per hit.  If it is proccing on blast then we should expect about 1/4 to 3 enemies rather than 1/10 vs 1.

[MaxQuest]

Ouch, for some reason I was thinking it has 10% base chance. Yeah the tooltip clearly states 5%.

 

Have tried auto-attacking with non-wizard, and indeed Exp. Vulnerabilities were proccing very rarely: 4 times out of 50 swings (i.e. 2x50 crits as perception was set to 200 to completely avoid misses)

After that repeated the same with a blasting wizard hitting a target with two adjacent ones. And the proc rate has increased, subjectively to 1 out of 4 swings.

 

So you were right, it procs on blast.

[Loren Tyr]

As far as I can tell everything procs on blast (and carnage), so that was always the most likely outcome. Now if only Blunderbuss was as well-behaved in that regard... not even Envenomed Blunderbuss works as (I think) it should *sigh*

[nem0]

% chance procs appear to work on all aoe weapon attack modifiers; carnage, blast, and torment's reach.  However, guaranteed effects on hit like disorienting only seems to hit the attack targets that are hit by the weapon, so carnage proc works on all hits but the others have separate damage instances and do not.

[Loren Tyr]

True, but I'd say those aren't really procs, they just modify the weapon (like enchantments) and what it does when it hits. Whereas (what I would refer to as) procs are additional attacks, with their own attack against a particular defense (regardless of whether there is a condition of them occurring (crit only, % chance) or not; it applies to for example Envenomed Strike as well). The two tend to be implemented in distinct ways (eg. Disorienting is literally an Item Modification).